Resigning 4

[WARose]

I just got finished leaving my job without a concrete offer from another outfit. Now that appears to have been a bit hasty as I'm not sure the people I have been talking to will make an offer. I guess that's one lesson learned.....but the thing about it that worries me is how future (potential) employers will view these moves: this is now the second time in a row I've resigned somewhere without another job lined up. The first was because they expected me to ride herd over a bunch of kids in a department (in my early 40's, I was the oldest structural engineer there), and they put stuff in front of me that others had developed and expected me to stamp it without geotech info and so forth. This last one was just ridiculous: I was there every night until 9pm (sometimes until after 1 am) and I had no drafting help.

It's kind of a vicious cycle: seems like the only people that are hiring are the fly-by-night outfits like these. And the really solid places (I think) get turned off by frequent moves that is part of getting mixed up with these companies. With the second place they were probably relieved because they were out of work.....but I have to admit on the first one, I probably did leave them high and dry (which is what potential employers fear).

Not that I announce this on a resume, but the question is bound to come up in a interview process.....how would you handle it? Just lay out the facts as I have here.....or a different approach? Looking at my resume, they will see some of the same places over and over (which will let them know I leave good work behind)....but this is bound to be asked.

 

[Ron]

Bill....nothing wrong with leaving an unprofessional firm. I like the fact that you don't want to be a commodity and won't tolerate that process in the demeaning of our profession.

There are good firms out there, but they usually have long-term people. As you mentioned, it's the fly-by-nights that are always looking for people.

Where are you located?

 

[WARose]

I'm in South Carolina (in the Greenville-Spartanburg area).

Sometimes I think I should have tried to tough it out at [at least] one of these places....but the fact is: the issue of drafting is becoming huge. There just aren't a lot of good designers/drafters left out there. And if you want to bid ridiculously low: you had better have some good help in that area. I would do it myself but my CAD skills are pretty much nonexistent at this point (which is probably one of the main things that keeps me from going out on my own).

 

[Ron]

I agree about the drafting capability. I put together details, but it is always an ordeal. Glad most of my work is not design.

If you could tie in with a couple of fabricators (misc. steel, stairs and rails, etc.) you could do a fair amount of delegated engineering work. Take a look at doing condition assessments, remediation design, failure investigations, etc. Greenville/Spartanburg not necessarily of hotbed of condos, but I assume you wouldn't mind a drive to Myrtle Beach, Hilton Head, Beaufort or Savannah.

Take a shot with your own shingle....not likely you'll regret it considering your thoughts about the state of the profession!

 

[MikeHalloran]

It's largely the same outside of the PE world; all of the advertised jobs are 'broken' in some way. After a year or two in one job market, you start to recognize the same jobs, open again and again, just from the job description.

It seems to not be traditional to put "reason for leaving" on a resume nowadays, certainly not as a highlighted line item, but you can usually include a sly hint about it.

When recruiters see a short stint at "FlyByNightCo", they'll
deduce that you're an honorable professional. ... which may not be what they're actually looking for, unfortunately.

Ron has a good idea there; the PE gives you options that are not available to fools like me.








Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[Ron]

When recruiters see a short stint at "FlyByNightCo", they'll
deduce that you're an honorable professional. ... which may not be what they're actually looking for, unfortunately.

Excellent point, Mike.

 

[moltenmetal]

It is very important to realize that an offer of employment is NOT a contract- no money or other "valuable consideration" has changed hands. So even if you have a written offer, the employer can change the terms on you prior to your first day and there's nothing you can do about it other than not start working for them.

I learned that the hard way. My very first job out of school.

 

[SteelPE]

I do work with fabricators and contractors. It seems they always have a need for an engineer to do something whether it is designing stairs or connections. I HATE doing connections as I am usually cleaning up some other engineers mess (connect this W24x55 into a W8x10 for 1.25 the UDL capacity) although the money can be decent. They sometimes land smaller projects as well (this is mostly what I work on). It isn't that easy though. I have connections with two medium size fabricators.

I also do overflow engineering work from other companies (this I find very hard to come by).

If you want to work on larger projects then you are going to need to either learn how to draft, find someone who does to help or do something in-between. I am good enough now that I can take a drawing and make the necessary changes to it to make it right.

 

[lacajun]

Excellent points, Gentlemen!

Get an employment contract for the next direct job you take, if you can. If you cannot, it may be best to continue looking or start your own business. If I had gotten employment contracts for the last two direct positions I resigned from, things would be much different today. There are some very good and experienced labor attorneys that can write good contracts. I know some that have gotten them for Business Development Positions. I write that so you will not discount yourself, your position in life, and what you deserve.

I do not put those two positions, the ones resigned from, on my resume because they were very negative experiences. They wanted me to lie, which is a moral and ethical failure. I will offer that I had two positions and the reasons for my departure but no other information will be mentioned. A well respected recruiter said I was being dishonest, which could be said. However, as I read and interpret the law for PEs, I choose to apply the law in that manner. The recruiter is not responsible for my license or my conscience; I am. If I am wrong, that will come to light and I will change.

I've learned through my experiences that moving on is usually the best thing. Life is too short to waste on companies and people that do not see the need to improve, whether they're small and few improvements or large and numerous. Doing right is sometimes an improvement for companies and the people in those companies. Profit often clouds judgment; we've all seen it more than once.

I've also learned that second guessing myself leads to ruminations, doubts, and a lot of other garbage I do not need. Engineers can overanalyze much. ;-) I would recommend you not second guess yourself. I've walked off jobs due to ill treatment. False accusations coupled with hostile work environments is not something I will tolerate any longer.

When my career began, the Plant Manager had a reputation for high common and professional courtesy from all employees. He fired engineers for being rude to salesmen. I am glad to have worked for Tom Brown prior to his retirement. He was an outstanding man. Life goes both ways so do not doubt yourself for one second. Look to the future and know you will be OK. I see you as trying to do the correct thing, which speaks volumes in today's world.

Negativity is hard on the brain and sucks the life force from you. Positivity is easy on the brain and life giving. It is genuinely a breath of fresh air. I recommend fresh air for you.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[moltenmetal]

BTW, that goes both ways- it is not a contract for either party. We have so far had at least two people, one inspector/tech and one engineer, who accepted our offer of employment but then failed to show up on their agreed start date. No notice- no courtesy. I find that to be every bit as slimy and unacceptable as my former employer who docked my pay below an offer I had REJECTED during negotiations, prior to my start date- when I had rejected subsequent, greatly HIGHER offers from others in the interim because I was a man of my word and had agreed to an offer. Important learning, fortunately very early in my career- unfortunately occurring when I had $32 to my name after paying 1st and last month's rent in the new city.

 

[WARose]

Thanks for the points about offers guys. But to tell you the truth, I wanted to get away from these people whether an offer was solid or not.

lacajun, kind of interesting the point you make about not putting places like this on your resume......I've covered these outfits with the phrase "various positions" on mine. If someone wants to talk about them I will (considering we are talking a 2 year period, it's probably unavoidable), but I'm not going to bring them up because you aren't suppose to put down on places you've worked (or sound too negative) during interviews. So I have to think of a tactful way to discuss it.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I don't believe there is anything negative (towards you) in saying "I chose to leave those companies when I was asked to act in a highly unethical manner and could not do so in good conscience." If anything, it speaks to your high moral fiber and character.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[lacajun]

WARose, those two positions cover a 12-13 month period for me. Various positions is good. I like that idea and may use that myself.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[KENAT]

Seriously MacGyverS2000?

Despite what they may claim in their anti corruption corporate statement blah blah blah ... what for profit organization is going to routinely hire people who make such a big deal of being mister ethical? I'm sure there are a few ethical places but most of them, especially when public, are in it for the $.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

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(probably not aimed specifically at you)
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[MacGyverS2000]

Uh, yeah, seriously. Because of the credentials I hold, I'm required to report any ethical violations... failure to do so means I could lose those credentials in a heartbeat. The companies who hire people with such credentials know their business model is on the line if they fail to uphold those ethical guidelines, and SERIOUS fines have been levied for those who don't... upper management wants to know ASAP when someone is not acting appropriately so the company can deal with it immediately, BEFORE it becomes a blight on their name. It's only when upper management is the cause that things go south, and is that really the company you want to work for?

If a candidate told me "I left company X because they were f'ing crooks and were only out to make a quick buck any way possible", I'd be unlikely to hire them... the attitude displayed shows there is probably more to the story. But if someone expressed a desire to rise above such behavior and did so in a reasonable manner, they would likely do the same for me. Just because a company is out to make money doesn't mean their throat-cutting dirtbags about it.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[moltenmetal]

I'd simply say, "We had a difference of opinion about professional ethics." Say nothing more unless they ask you to elaborate. If pressed, I'd say "Well, it would seem that I had them, but they didn't. To say more might be breaching confidentiality, so I'd prefer not to elaborate."

Any employer who refuses to hire you as a result of saying that, fearing that you'll be a "troublemaker", is not going to be worth working for and you're better off avoiding the problem entirely rather than discovering that first hand- especially since you've already been there and done that!

What employers are looking out for are people who are easily bored and distracted, who switch jobs frequently at will for a few bucks more pay, or who are flawed in some way that makes it impossible for them to keep a job for more than a year or two. A few short stints don't concern an employer if you've got a few long ones to show that you CAN be loyal if you're treated well. And there are others here who have nothing but short stints and seem to have no trouble finding work, so your mileage may vary. Personally I don't hire serial short-stinters as that tendency is highly correlated with future problems. I may reject some true gems on the basis of that correlation, but as a small employer I need to play the odds in my favour.

 

[KENAT]

Mac, I was perhaps a bit too cynical even for my standards on my last post.

However, at the same time your current field of employment may be a bit towards one extreme in caring about such things.

Depending on context wording etc. I still think pointing out to a potential new employer that you left an old employer due to 'ethics concerns' could be perceived negatively in some cases.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

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(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[IRstuff]

There used to be a book about how to write your resume with descriptive double meanings, thereby accurately describing your circumstances without overtly raising a red flag.

TTFN
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[WARose]

If a candidate told me "I left company X because they were f'ing crooks and were only out to make a quick buck any way possible", I'd be unlikely to hire them... the attitude displayed shows there is probably more to the story.

Not that I'm saying you're wrong but that's exactly what many of these people are......but in any case, that is also the attitude i am trying to avoid displaying (because of the reaction you are mentioning).

The reason I get get downright mad about it is because some of the exact situations you (politely) tell a guy you don't want to deal with (and in the interview he just nods his head in response) is exactly what you run into. (Why hire a guy who doesn't want to face that?) That's how you can get tired of polite. Case in point: I left madhouse #1 in part because of half-@$$ed geotechnical info......and I'll be doggoned if one of the first projects I worked on at madhouse #2 was a project with no adequate geotechnical info for a dynamic loading situation. (And we weren't building a fast food joint here: we are talking a machine that if it didn't work properly would result in hundreds of millions down the drain. Really makes sense to skimp on a 6-8k report eh?)

 

[tickle]

The engineer should also ensure that they are not "catastrophising" events and listen to other view points. Sometimes the solution is not black and white and there are different ways of finding a solution. I am not dismissing the examples above, just suggesting that "ethical" stand points should not be used when it is a straight difference-of-opinion situation.

I have had a case when the engineers ethical compass was completely off. We listened to his concerns at first, which was against the majority of the other engineers in the office. We went back to the client who provided its advice, the engineer's concerns were not addressed. We spoke with a professor in the area, and still the engineer's concerns were not addressed. Anyway, the engineer still kept fighting, spending lots of time trying to solve the problem and refusing to sign off the design. The engineer refused to listen to other's opinions, and, quite frankly, made the company look pretty stupid. I do not know the full details of the problem, but it was to do with pipe stress analysis and studying the pipe for the full range of design conditions, even though they were not feasible to occur at the same time from an operating perspective (ie minimum temperature and maximum pressure). IMHO the engineer did not consider (acknowledge even) the worst operating conditions of one run operating and being (hot or cold) and the second run being at ambient.