hello - i am a m.e. that works for a company that bought a manufacturing facility in europe a number of years ago to machine & assemble our product - a person from the usa heads up this facility in the manufacturing area - for the last couple of years every design that is generated in the usa at our engineering office has come under deep criticisum from this person & i feel it is hurting our chances of becomming more cost efficient & our designs more 20th century - our vp of engineering seems to hang on every word & suggestion this guy makes even though he is not an engineer (he only runs the shop) - anyone else experiencing this kind of thing w/ off shore manufacturing - i am really tired of hearing that "we cant weld this , we cant bend this , we cant keep this round" from this guy - it seems to me when manufacturing starts to dictate design & engineering we are headed for a world of hurt - any opinions?? - sorry about the rant but i have reached my limit!!
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off shore manufacturing woes 2
- Thread starter duk748
- Start date
It doesn't sound like there is a whole lot of communication going on.
Have you, or any of the other design engineers been to the plant?
Do you or any of the other design engineers have an understanding of how your product is manufactured?
When he says "We can't weld this." Ask: Why not? Is it physically impossible to get a rod or electrode into the joint? Are the material thicknesses vastly dissimilar? Is the required process beyond the capability of the available equipment or welders? Is it a process issue, or an equipment issue, or a training issue or a design issue? Here is what the design intent is. Do you have any suggestions on how to effectively produce this?
You really have only three options. Design stuff within the process capabilities of the manufacturing facilities available to you, or upgrade the available manufacturing facilities to obtain the process capabilities required for the design, or meet in the middle somewhere.
Whether you like it or not (and it sound like not), design for maneuverability is part of design.
Have you, or any of the other design engineers been to the plant?
Do you or any of the other design engineers have an understanding of how your product is manufactured?
When he says "We can't weld this." Ask: Why not? Is it physically impossible to get a rod or electrode into the joint? Are the material thicknesses vastly dissimilar? Is the required process beyond the capability of the available equipment or welders? Is it a process issue, or an equipment issue, or a training issue or a design issue? Here is what the design intent is. Do you have any suggestions on how to effectively produce this?
You really have only three options. Design stuff within the process capabilities of the manufacturing facilities available to you, or upgrade the available manufacturing facilities to obtain the process capabilities required for the design, or meet in the middle somewhere.
Whether you like it or not (and it sound like not), design for maneuverability is part of design.
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1
- #3
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
You need to follow the product through the shop so you can fully understand what he's talking about, and so that you can talk intelligently about the parts of the operation that he doesn't understand.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
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1
- #4
There is a balance between designing for function and designing for manufacture. To succeed you really need to achieve both.
Generally little point having the best functioning piece of kit in the world if it’s so expensive to make no one buys it/you can’t sell it at a profit. Likewise, not much point having something that’s cheap to manufacture but doesn’t work.
Sometimes you will compromise your function, or at least change its design, for the sake of manufacturability. Sometimes you have to tell manufacturing to suck it up and just do it like you designed. Difficult part sometimes is knowing which way to go.
From what you say it’s difficult to know where the balance lies with you at the moment. You’re making it all out to be manufacturing’s issue, and maybe it is (I’ve worked a place that had that issue sometimes), but maybe some aspects of your design could be easier to manufacture, or at least better suit their processes/equipment.
If you are getting them built OK in the US and just having trouble in Europe then Mikes suggestion sounds good, even better get your US manufacturing to talk to Europe.
If you only have it made in Europe then Mikes suggestion is still nice but might be prohibitively expensive. As Mint says try and find out what their capabilities are and start to design to them. Ask them to detail what they can weld, what they can form, what they can machine and how accurate etc. For instance, no point speccing lots of rolled/bent ¼ plate if the maximum thickness they can do is 1/8. Either you need to change your design, outsource this part of the manufacturing or get them better tools.
Also, can you get their input earlier in the design process? Do you have design reviews and if so do manufacturing contribute? While if it’s as bad as you say it may not be a good idea, you could consider having a manufacturing approval on the drawings.
One of the first drawings I ever did, the machinist and prototype shop fitter called me down to the floor to ask me a bunch of questions about it. Now they definitely had some valid points/questions/concerns. However, they’d also missed things that were on the drawing, several times I pointed out that what they were asking me was there etc. My point being, typically there’s give and take on both sides, if the pendulum swings too far either way you’re in trouble.
In the USSR for instance, the design engineers were apparently only involved up to the prototype stage. Once ready for initial production the design was handed over to the separate manufacturing facility and they’d basically make any changes they wanted to suit manufacturing. This sometimes resulted in significant quality/performance issues. (Not sure how true this is or when but I saw it on a documentary about either the space race or some aircraft development, I can’t remember which.)
While sometimes the case, just because he doesn’t have a degree doesn’t automatically mean he doesn’t know what he’s on about. I’ve known shop floor folks that had more sense than chartered (UK version of professional) engineers.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies: What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
Generally little point having the best functioning piece of kit in the world if it’s so expensive to make no one buys it/you can’t sell it at a profit. Likewise, not much point having something that’s cheap to manufacture but doesn’t work.
Sometimes you will compromise your function, or at least change its design, for the sake of manufacturability. Sometimes you have to tell manufacturing to suck it up and just do it like you designed. Difficult part sometimes is knowing which way to go.
From what you say it’s difficult to know where the balance lies with you at the moment. You’re making it all out to be manufacturing’s issue, and maybe it is (I’ve worked a place that had that issue sometimes), but maybe some aspects of your design could be easier to manufacture, or at least better suit their processes/equipment.
If you are getting them built OK in the US and just having trouble in Europe then Mikes suggestion sounds good, even better get your US manufacturing to talk to Europe.
If you only have it made in Europe then Mikes suggestion is still nice but might be prohibitively expensive. As Mint says try and find out what their capabilities are and start to design to them. Ask them to detail what they can weld, what they can form, what they can machine and how accurate etc. For instance, no point speccing lots of rolled/bent ¼ plate if the maximum thickness they can do is 1/8. Either you need to change your design, outsource this part of the manufacturing or get them better tools.
Also, can you get their input earlier in the design process? Do you have design reviews and if so do manufacturing contribute? While if it’s as bad as you say it may not be a good idea, you could consider having a manufacturing approval on the drawings.
One of the first drawings I ever did, the machinist and prototype shop fitter called me down to the floor to ask me a bunch of questions about it. Now they definitely had some valid points/questions/concerns. However, they’d also missed things that were on the drawing, several times I pointed out that what they were asking me was there etc. My point being, typically there’s give and take on both sides, if the pendulum swings too far either way you’re in trouble.
In the USSR for instance, the design engineers were apparently only involved up to the prototype stage. Once ready for initial production the design was handed over to the separate manufacturing facility and they’d basically make any changes they wanted to suit manufacturing. This sometimes resulted in significant quality/performance issues. (Not sure how true this is or when but I saw it on a documentary about either the space race or some aircraft development, I can’t remember which.)
While sometimes the case, just because he doesn’t have a degree doesn’t automatically mean he doesn’t know what he’s on about. I’ve known shop floor folks that had more sense than chartered (UK version of professional) engineers.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies: What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
As was said very well above, a conversation can be an amazing thing. I designed a thermocompressor last year with some pretty tight tolerances. The shop foreman called and asked for a meeting. He had a list of bits that would be very hard to make and/or very expensive. We talked about them and most of his recommendations were still within the design specs and we adopted his version. A couple of his changes would have put the machine out of tolerance and we looked for ways to accomplish my design. It was a real learning experience for me.
David
David
GregLocock
Automotive
An occasionally wise manager once said that he thought that most engineers' performance would improve far more if they learnt to communicate a bit better than if they learnt to engineer a bit better. Webcams aren't expensive, get the people at the other end to talk you through the problems, with the parts in their hands. Don't do it by email, that is too hard.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG
lease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG
lease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.- Thread starter
- #7
hello again & thank you to all that have replied - i have been to the plant for a number of months at a time when we first went there & know what they can do - i too believe manufacturing has the right to make suggestions & tell us what they can & cannot do - the 1st reply in this thread is exactly right - at this time though this particular person has become too involved in our designs & "his" opinions seem to be gospel on what we should & should not do - we make basically farm equipment - lot of plates, bars, tubing & shapes - nothing fancy - my problem lies in the fact that other shops & other companies are doing much more advanced & "common" designs (large frames, transfer machines, etc.) & making them there also with 1/2 the hassle & not doing anything different then what i have seen in my 20+years in the business - & no this company does not believe in design review meetings - it is sometimes like pulling teeth to get the copy of the specs of the machine & find out what you need to design let alone have any meeting about anything
thank you for a place to vent & all that have contributed
thank you for a place to vent & all that have contributed
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
Come to think of it, I have tangled with a couple of manufacturing managers who basically positioned themselves as impediments to any sort of change, despite a lack of technical credentials. It turned out they had something to hide.
Do you have auditors or forensic accountants?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Do you have auditors or forensic accountants?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
This would probably be better posted in forum732 as it's more of how do I overcome this obstacle than a technical problem.
Patricia Lougheed
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Goes to show you, if you are desiring to become a mechanical engineer, you should first become a machinist, and mechanic, so you actually know what it is your trying to accomplish. Biggest problem with engineering and prints(drawings) down into the shop is going with default Cad Cam tolerancing, you end up creating scrap and huge wastes of time, trying to hold a tolerance that is just plain stupid for the application. Yeah going from a pretty picture on a computer screen to the actual solid piece of metal takes a bit of thought. I see so much regression in design work now. Its like hasn't anyone learnt from the old guys from the 40's and 50's? Or is it done that way on purpose?
- Thread starter
- #11
hello again - yes i too believe that one desiring to become
an engineer should spend alot of time in a manufacturing enviroment - i am one of those guys from the 60's who got his trade from the machine shop operating a lathe just out of high school - my problem here (my work place) is w/ all of the great fea software & cad tools we have where we can just about do anything within limits why is it that our manufacturing group is not willing to change w/ the times - why is it we are stuck being safe in the 1950's?? - it almost makes one in this profession feel dead inside - maybe i am just getting too old!! - thank you again
an engineer should spend alot of time in a manufacturing enviroment - i am one of those guys from the 60's who got his trade from the machine shop operating a lathe just out of high school - my problem here (my work place) is w/ all of the great fea software & cad tools we have where we can just about do anything within limits why is it that our manufacturing group is not willing to change w/ the times - why is it we are stuck being safe in the 1950's?? - it almost makes one in this profession feel dead inside - maybe i am just getting too old!! - thank you again
btrueblood
Mechanical
A star for Mike. The type of manufacturing manager he describes can be discovered, the hard way, by the increasing amount of resistance he presents as you try to negotiate ("meet him halfway") with him. If you do find out what he is hiding, watch your back.
duk, I might owe you a slight appology. Based on your subsequent posts seems you have more experience at such things than I so I may have been teaching my proverbial Grandmother to go suck eggs. I've heard similar complaints to the OP when it turned out that the design side of things held a lot of the blame, often from younger, arrogant folks, but it sounds like that's not you.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies: What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies: What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
- Thread starter
- #14
hello again & many many thanks to those that are still contributing - no appologies are needed by anyone here - i just needed some other opinions before i blew a gasket - the advice given here by some well read technical people is very appreciated - just a side note - our vp & i & another me met w/ this same person on monday about this same job & he again has changed his tune about what he can & cannot do & how "cheap" he can make certain parts of this design by "modifying" our design - i really had to bite my tongue again but i now believe there is something more to this then meets the eye
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