Need some advice......

[ARS97]

We have been contracted as the design-build contractor for a sand plant project that consists of stacking conveyors, screen towers, etc. Originally, this was going to be a "flagship project" for the customer......everything was going to be top notch. After they got the estimate, it quickly became a "cheap & dirty" project.....now the customer wants to re-use a bunch of leftover equipment/structures from a previous project. Just cut to the chase, this stuff is mostly junk that wasn't engineered in the first place. In addition, for some odd reason, they want us to provide them stamped drawings for the new foundations that support these structures. So, I'm left with the task of trying to predict the structural behavior of this junk, and as you might guess, it's going to be quite difficult.

Not only will most of the foundations will be oversized mat foundations (which give some room for miscalculation), but the customer is providing the concrete.......and I'm not going to be shy about using it.

Something just doesn't sit right with me regarding liability. Technically, all I have to worry about is that my foundation doesn't fail. (I have to figure out how to predict the loads first!) However, isn't there a duty to inform the customer of the potential issues with the re-used structure(s) that are being supported?

Any thoughts on this?

 

[msquared48]

He is trying to save so much money, I wonder if he has insurance?

Write him a letter expressing your concerns. Sending a copy to the insurance company could be both a dirty trick, and a can of worms, but the local jurisdiction might be another candidate for a letter too if there are real life-safety issues that you can document.



Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[TLHS]

If you're design build, you should really take a look at the original contract you signed. If you agreed to design and build all this stuff, you may have some amount of liability for the existing items you're reusing. Unless it was actually written down somewhere that you are exempt from that design work there could probably be an argument made that since you were responsible for the overall system design that by allowing these items to be used you were somehow certifying their suitability.

The actual act of designing foundations for moved or repurposed equipment isn't particularly unusual though. However, if I were in a situation where the item I was designing a foundation for was obviously not fit for purpose I would at minimum write a letter telling the client that and probably try as hard as I could to avoid the project or remove myself from the project.

You may be able to get them to write you a letter that says you aren't responsible for certain scope items, but I question how ethical that necessarily is if you actually think there's a safety issue. However, even if that did cover you against liablity to your client, I doubt it would help you if a third party somehow got injured.

 

[Ron]

Run away!

 

[JStephen]

I would question why they want PE stamped-foundations. Or more to the point, I wonder if you're going to get halfway into the project and somebody's going to say, "Oh, by the way, to get our building permit, we also need PE-stamped drawings of all our repurposed junk..."

 

[ARS97]

msquared48:
We've worked with this customer before and our management team has vetted the customer many times before. They're legit, but they're just packrats. They might save a little bit of money overall, but the engineering cost increases quite a bit. I can analyze a new structure much more efficiently than an old one, especially if the old one isn't what I would call structurally sound. This doesn't include the cost of the site visit and field-measurements either.

Believe it or not, the local code office isn't involved in this project at all. I know, it's crazy, but local codes offices rarely get involved in these types of projects.

TLHS:
I've been told that there is verbage that limits our engineering scope, but I haven't seen the specifics of that contract.

Ron:
lol.....yeah, tell me about it!

 

[ARS97]

JStephen - I've asked the same question already to our management team.....there's no logic to it. Why stamp the foundation when you're supporting garbage?

 

[ARS97]

UPDATE

I emailed the building code office (King George County, VA) and asked the following questions:

1) We are being told by the customer that the county office (your office) is only requesting stamped PE drawings for the foundations…..not for the numerous steel structures that are being installed. Many of these steel structures are leftovers from a previous plant and will be re-used. However, they are in very poor shape and likely weren’t engineered in the first place. Why no concern over these structures? Although it’s early in the project and I’ve only had a brief visual review of some of these structures, it’s safe to say that they would even come close to being code-compliant. My concern is that there will a request for stamped drawings of the existing structures later in the process, which I won’t even entertain due to their condition.

2) We also being told that a Maryland stamp would suffice on the foundation drawings, since I don’t have a Virginia stamp. Is that the case?

We'll see where that gets me......

 

[ARS97]

I got a response from the building code official.....

First off, as expected, a MD stamp in not acceptable for a VA commercial project. I have no idea where the customer came up with this. I guess I'll have to chase this one further.

As for the structures.....apparently there is an exemption for processing equipment. As to what is defined as processing equipment and who makes that determination, I'm not sure yet.

 

[TDIengineer]

If the equipment is not regularly occupied except for maintenance and repairs, then I would think you could consider what you're anchoring and providing for the foundation is for an equipment. Anything from the anchor bolts up, is not yours.

For example, designing a mat foundation for a large tank. The vessel isn't your responsibility, just the foundation and attachment.If the legs fails from seismic or wind, not your fault or design.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

I've designed foundations for re-used equipment before. But, only when we had some pretty good information on that equipment. Good numbers for empty, operating and test weights. Good numbers for dimensions and such. All taken from the original manufacturers documentation. You can't rely on any "estimated reactions" for the old equipment because they are probably all based old seismic or wind codes anyway.... or, based on the old / original location. But, if you've got basic geometry and dead load and operating load data then you should be able to derive the rest of from that basic information.

 

[ARS97]

TDIengineer:
Well, that's the assumption we're working with. I have no problem with that other than some of the structures are quite large and support some heavy equipment (vibratory screens being the most common). I'm confident that I can design a mat foundation that will function adequately......I just see a BIG oversight with the safety of the other stuff.

JoshPlum:
I have some pretty good info on the equipment and structures. Our drafting department made a sit visit and measured all of the structure and created a CAD layout. We even have vendor drawings for most of the equipment, which has design loads listed. I plan on performing my own frame analysis regardless, but the structures are in such poor shape and weren't engineered in the first place that it's going to be terribly accurate.