Motorcycle design software

[numlo]

Hello,
I am looking into software to design motorcycles. I should say that this is an amateur project (started by a few engineers) hoping to develop into something more. It is something along the lines of "What if we never tried...". A geeky dream for engineers. We don't plan to mass produce it but we do plan to make a few and do track days with them. If we find other track day enthusiasts interested, good. If not, we'll still have our toys.

The motorcycle frame will be designed from scratch.
- It will have a trellis frame (most likely; at least for the first generation)
- NOT a chopper
- we won't even attempt to design the engine and gearbox for the first generation(s)
- shocks will be Öhlins (most likely)

What I want to know: What software packages do you think are suited for this particular task? We need something that can blend with FEA and CFD software. The CDF software will be used to design the air intake and the exhaust. Also the CFD software will be used to some extent to simulate the air flow around the fairing. We want to do some vibration analysis and frame/swingarm simulations.

How do Catia V5, Ansys and Fluent work togather?

We are engineers but we are not automotive/mechanical engineers so this post will probably be a baptism of fire for us.

All suggestions are welcome.

 

[looslib]

Do any of you have experience with any mechanical CAD software?
CATIA, NX, Wildifre, SolidWorks, SolidEdge will work to design your frame and create files that can be used by other systems. With NX, you can use an integrated Nastran and I know it does work with CFDesign. Wildfire and Mechanica are integrated, also.


"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

 

[numlo]

Hello,

We only have experience with Autocad 2D design (work) and a bit Fluent and Gambit (college classes). The software learning curve does not worry us too much (we don't have a deadline or other commitments) but we would like to choose a package and stick with it.

We want to take an engineering approach to this. Our main worry is making something that will brake/crack under braking load or something that will flex so bad it will cause a crash.

After we make it safe, we will try to make it fast.

We plan on using a 600cc engine that will make about 120 hp.

So I would say that simulation is more important to us than making the 3D model.

 

[looslib]

I am guessing that you will also be buying the software, which usually isn't cheap. By the time you get design, analysis and CFD packages, you could be looking at $50K in software. What is your budget for software tools?

The next part to consider is manufacturing your design. That is easier to get done by local shops than the design.


"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

 

[looslib]

FYI
Harley-Davidson uses Pro/Engineer.
Dan Gurney at All-American Racers uses NX for their Alligator motorcycle line.
Honda has Pro/Engineer for powertrain, but not sure if that is just cars or both.

"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

 

[numlo]

Hello,
We talked about the costs and we have set our budget at $100K for everything (software, engine, suspension, brakes, everything).

We are thinking that we are better off if we spend more on software that will help us make very accurate simulations than spending on building the actual thing over and over again to make a small improvement. The software can be used for future motorcycle projects. The poorly designed parts cannot.

 

[KENAT]

100K may sound a lot but you could burn through a bunch of that buying software and getting some basic training etc. on it.

You may be better with a mid range product like Solid Edge or Works, they have add ons for FEA & CFD that may be more or less integrated. However, I don't know for sure how good the analysis packs are. Also, with FEA & CFD while I believe they've got a bit better you really need to know what you're doing to use them or you can get a lot of 'GIGO'. This has often been lamented on this site, people running FEA without really understanding what it's doing or validating their models.

I believe I've seen motorbikes, or maybe was it a scooter, done in Solid Edge so it's probably possible.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

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[MiketheEngineer]

Call Orange County Cycles or some similar outfit. Maybe they can help you or offer their design teams to get you going. Might let you rent their software and design talent??

 

[JohnRBaker]

For a couple more Motorcycle success stories:

http://www.plm.automation.siemens.c...dy.cfm?ComponentTemplate=1481&Component=30505

http://www.plm.automation.siemens.c...dy.cfm?ComponentTemplate=1481&Component=30509

http://www.plm.automation.siemens.c...dy.cfm?ComponentTemplate=1481&Component=30270

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[numlo]

We discussed this and even though this is a labor of love we kind of hope that it will turn into something else. We are not too keen on buying some mid range software, spend time learning it and then finding out that we need something better and do it all over again. Not to mention that switching from one platform to another would be very difficult in terms of saved files.

Also, we are not looking to reinvent the wheel of motorcycle design and development.

We know from the college classes that knowing what you're doing is a key element in CFD. I'm sure FEA is the same.

So far from what I've read the most appropriate packages for us would revolve around Catia and NX.

Catia has Abaqus. Don't know how it rates against Ansys.

Fluent might be a little overkill for the aerodynamics since a motorcycle's aerodynamics are not that important but we have worked with it a bit and we liked it. Also, I think it will be very good for the air intake and exhaust design.

 

[numlo]

From what I know, Orange County Cycles builds choppers, not track day bikes. Also, we want to do it ourselves. You can get a Moto2 bike for more than $100K but where would the fun be.

Thanks for the links!

If you have any more suggestions, don't hesitate to write them.

 

[JohnRBaker]

One of the advantages of using NX is that while you can interface to most all of the industry standard 3rd party analysis tools, you can also perform most all of those tasks INSIDE of NX using the integrated suite of CAE tools based on some of the most powerful and well implemented applications available today in any form, integrated or otherwise.

For a review of the breadth & depth of what NX and Siemens has to offer in this area, go to:

http://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/products/nx/simulation/digital_lifecycle/index.shtml

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[MadMango]

The low-cost approach might be to use Alibre Expert (CAD), OpenFoam (CFD), and Algor.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?

 

[GregLocock]

Or calculix for the FEA.

OpenFoam is a fully functional professional CFD that went open source a few years back. It is used by at least one automotive OEM.

Real automotive engineers tend not to use the bundled analysis packages, they export the solid models and mesh them up in other packages.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the FEA, the reality is that you don't know what the loads really are.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[HDS]

It is just a motor cycle. Any 3D cad package will be fine. People have even made good cycles in Alias.

 

[mcgyvr]

Don't forget about Autodesk Inventor...

http://ketiv.com/news-events/press/high-performance-motorcycle-manufacturer-picks-autodesk-inventor

 

[dgallup]

Nice tip about OpenFoam. I had no idea there was open source CFD. I'm going to have to study their literature to see if it is something I can use. I used to work for a company that had Fidap (don't know if that even exists, it was horrid) and later Fluent which I liked. Don't have a budget for that kind of thing now.

Anybody have a good link for open source non linear FEA? I need to do some elastomers.

 

[flash3780]

You might check into CalculiX for FEA. It takes ABAQUS input files and has pretty good functionality from what I've seen. I've been meaning to look into it as well.

As for non-free programs, I've used ABAQUS and ANSYS. They're both top notch software and will do an excellent job of analyzing most anything that you throw at them. They're a bit pricey though.

Check out this thread for some low-cost/free engineering tools that you might be interested in:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=293135&page=5