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Minimal requirements and demands for basement Storage
- Thread starter JoeH78
- Start date
Joe,
Regarded sprinkler protection in the basement as long as the sprinkler design meets the requirements of NFPA 13 you are OK. But no hazardous materials ie flammables, etc. in the basement. Definitely reach out to the AHJ for input.
As a firefighter basement fires are very difficult to fight because of access to the space and heat and smoke ventilation during the fire. I have inspected basement storage occupancies with 30’ rack storage of product…fun!
Tom
Regarded sprinkler protection in the basement as long as the sprinkler design meets the requirements of NFPA 13 you are OK. But no hazardous materials ie flammables, etc. in the basement. Definitely reach out to the AHJ for input.
As a firefighter basement fires are very difficult to fight because of access to the space and heat and smoke ventilation during the fire. I have inspected basement storage occupancies with 30’ rack storage of product…fun!
Tom
- Thread starter
- #3
It must be fun really,LCREP said:
![[bigsmile]](/data/assets/smilies/bigsmile.gif "[bigsmile] [bigsmile]")
Thanks for guidance, definitely I'll consult AHJ for input but before that I have to assure them that I 've studied my lessons and I know what I'm talking about.
In order to achive that I have the follwoing questions ( assume that storage material is: Group A non expandable commodity)
[ol 1]
[li] ıf we take into account the FMGlobal and NFPA requirements which one will be governing? Of course trying to be on stricter one is preferable bu aside from that is the actual comment ?[/li]
[li] In which Chapter of NFPA or FMGlobal is defined the storage distances and max allowable aisles distance between them ? [/li]
[li] In which Chapter of NFPA or FMGlobal is defined the min./max. distance of storage to smoke, heat detectors ? [/li]
[/ol]
Joe,
“ Thanks for guidance, definitely I'll consult AHJ for input but before that I have to assure them that I 've studied my lessons and I know what I'm talking about.”
Nope ….the AHJ tells you what they want and or what the minimum requirements are. They approve the plans, you need to make them happy. They can care less you studied your lessons.
As an insurance representative I had many of these meetings with over 36 years in the business. I told them what I ie the insurance company wanted. The more information you can provide the better but at the end of the day they decide what section of the code you will comply with for them to approve the plans and issue a certificate of occupancy.
When NFPA has no protection criteria FM maybe used IF the AHJ accepts it.
A few questions…
1. How many sq. ft.is the basement?
2. How many sq.ft. will be storage?
3. What is the ceiling height?
4. How high will the racks be?
5. How high will the storage be?
6. Are the racks single,double or multiple row?
7. How wide will the aisles be?
8. Are any columns within the racks? If so do they have fire rating?
9. Any idle pallets if so how high, wood or plastic, where stored?
10.Who is requesting smoke detection in addition to sprinkler protection?
11. How many stories is the building and what is the remaining occupancy?
12. Do you have a public or private water supply? How many gpm at what psi is available? What is the size of the water main? Is it a dead end main or circulating?
13. Does the site have a fire pump, if so how many gpm and psi.
“ assume that storage material is: Group A non expandable commodity)” Who made this decision, what criteria did they use?
So it’s not as simple as looking in NFPA and getting an answer. A lot of information has to be provided so the AHJ knows what section of NFPA to look at. Hence why I was involved in these meetings to get my questions answered and then provided my insurance “recommendations” for the project. Many times the meetings had the sprinkler contractor, the project manager and the architect all present to provide the information. The bigger the project ie 10,000 sq. ft. Vs 1million sq.ft ie the more $$ that can be lost, the more time was needed.
Hope this helps.
Tom
“ Thanks for guidance, definitely I'll consult AHJ for input but before that I have to assure them that I 've studied my lessons and I know what I'm talking about.”
Nope ….the AHJ tells you what they want and or what the minimum requirements are. They approve the plans, you need to make them happy. They can care less you studied your lessons.
As an insurance representative I had many of these meetings with over 36 years in the business. I told them what I ie the insurance company wanted. The more information you can provide the better but at the end of the day they decide what section of the code you will comply with for them to approve the plans and issue a certificate of occupancy.
When NFPA has no protection criteria FM maybe used IF the AHJ accepts it.
A few questions…
1. How many sq. ft.is the basement?
2. How many sq.ft. will be storage?
3. What is the ceiling height?
4. How high will the racks be?
5. How high will the storage be?
6. Are the racks single,double or multiple row?
7. How wide will the aisles be?
8. Are any columns within the racks? If so do they have fire rating?
9. Any idle pallets if so how high, wood or plastic, where stored?
10.Who is requesting smoke detection in addition to sprinkler protection?
11. How many stories is the building and what is the remaining occupancy?
12. Do you have a public or private water supply? How many gpm at what psi is available? What is the size of the water main? Is it a dead end main or circulating?
13. Does the site have a fire pump, if so how many gpm and psi.
“ assume that storage material is: Group A non expandable commodity)” Who made this decision, what criteria did they use?
So it’s not as simple as looking in NFPA and getting an answer. A lot of information has to be provided so the AHJ knows what section of NFPA to look at. Hence why I was involved in these meetings to get my questions answered and then provided my insurance “recommendations” for the project. Many times the meetings had the sprinkler contractor, the project manager and the architect all present to provide the information. The bigger the project ie 10,000 sq. ft. Vs 1million sq.ft ie the more $$ that can be lost, the more time was needed.
Hope this helps.
Tom
Is this in the USA?
If so which state?
If so which building code is adopted by the ahj and year edition?
Does the basement hav or will have a fire sprinkler system
What is the rest of the building used for
How many sq ft is the basement
If so which state?
If so which building code is adopted by the ahj and year edition?
Does the basement hav or will have a fire sprinkler system
What is the rest of the building used for
How many sq ft is the basement
- Thread starter
- #6
As a response to @LCREP and @cdafd questions:
Actually the project is in Europe, the basement will be used for the storage purposes upper floor is for production of textile based products.
1. How many sq. ft.is the basement?
8000m2
2. How many sq.ft. will be storage?
Actually teh whole area
3. What is the ceiling height?
Clear height is 4.8mt
4. How high will the racks be?
Actually the material is solid piled
5. How high will the storage be?
This is what they are asking to me to find the solution
6. Are the racks single,double or multiple row?
Normally commodity is solid piled, but how about if they change their mind and continue with double baack to back 4mt storage height allowable ?
7. How wide will the aisles be?
This also depends on my answer and AHJ
8. Are any columns within the racks? If so do they have fire rating?
Yes but they are Reinforced cocnrete, which I believe is most highest rating against fire resistance
9. Any idle pallets if so how high, wood or plastic, where stored?
There will be no idle pallets as per client declaration
10.Who is requesting smoke detection in addition to sprinkler protection?
MEP authorities
11. How many stories is the building and what is the remaining occupancy?
Basement is storage upper floor is production for
12. Do you have a public or private water supply? How many gpm at what psi is available? What is the size of the water main? Is it a dead end main or circulating?
We have the water tank 1000m3 only for fire fighting usage + 2 fire pumps
13. Does the site have a fire pump, if so how many gpm and psi.
Yes 2500gpm but I don't know the psi
Actually the project is in Europe, the basement will be used for the storage purposes upper floor is for production of textile based products.
1. How many sq. ft.is the basement?
8000m2
2. How many sq.ft. will be storage?
Actually teh whole area
3. What is the ceiling height?
Clear height is 4.8mt
4. How high will the racks be?
Actually the material is solid piled
5. How high will the storage be?
This is what they are asking to me to find the solution
6. Are the racks single,double or multiple row?
Normally commodity is solid piled, but how about if they change their mind and continue with double baack to back 4mt storage height allowable ?
7. How wide will the aisles be?
This also depends on my answer and AHJ
8. Are any columns within the racks? If so do they have fire rating?
Yes but they are Reinforced cocnrete, which I believe is most highest rating against fire resistance
9. Any idle pallets if so how high, wood or plastic, where stored?
There will be no idle pallets as per client declaration
10.Who is requesting smoke detection in addition to sprinkler protection?
MEP authorities
11. How many stories is the building and what is the remaining occupancy?
Basement is storage upper floor is production for
12. Do you have a public or private water supply? How many gpm at what psi is available? What is the size of the water main? Is it a dead end main or circulating?
We have the water tank 1000m3 only for fire fighting usage + 2 fire pumps
13. Does the site have a fire pump, if so how many gpm and psi.
Yes 2500gpm but I don't know the psi
Joe,
Thanks for the reply a few more questions….
What is the actual product?
What is the packaging, if cardboard how many layers, single, double, multiple?
What type of pallet wood, plastic?
Are you using NFPA 13 definition for commodity classification?
So they are using NFPA 13 for protection criteria, what year? I did some work in the UK and they had their own sprinkler standard, I can not recall what it was since it was 20 years ago.
Did you reach out to the insurance carrier Loss Prevention Department for input?
Tom
Thanks for the reply a few more questions….
What is the actual product?
What is the packaging, if cardboard how many layers, single, double, multiple?
What type of pallet wood, plastic?
Are you using NFPA 13 definition for commodity classification?
So they are using NFPA 13 for protection criteria, what year? I did some work in the UK and they had their own sprinkler standard, I can not recall what it was since it was 20 years ago.
Did you reach out to the insurance carrier Loss Prevention Department for input?
Tom
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