MAC vs PC Windows 1

[Qshake]

Somewhere in this forum it is noted that the MAC is years ahead of the IBM PC compatible (windows) system. I would really appreciate others input on the how and why.

I would also be interested to know what other systems there are out there and how they compare to Windows driven PC. I know there is Linux, UNIX and Sun Microstation (hell, the latter two may even be the same) but I don't know much about them.

Thank you all in advance.



Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[GregLocock]

This always degenerates into a stupid religious war.

You should add Solaris to your list.

Engineers use software, not operating systems. If the best software package for your purposes is only available on one OS, then you use that. If it is available on multiple OS's then you may have to make a decision. Since virtually no significant engineering packages run natively on the Mac or Linux then the choice is W2K vs *nix vs Solaris.

For complex reasons I use the same engineering packages on W2K running on a PC, and HP UNIX running on a workstation. My PC is slightly more reliable than my workstation. My PC is more powerful than my workstation. My PC was cheaper than my workstation. The screen on my PC is better than the one on my workstation.

On the other hand my workstation has a direct connection to a Cray, and to all the other workstations around the company and to unlimited disk space, and can split jobs across several workstations. It my be possible to do all that from a PC, but our network won't allow it.

Oh, and the specific reasons why Mac OS was years ahead of Windows, in some respects, was that it works on a very narrowly defined set of hardware, so all interactions can be tested. The user experience was undoubtedly better in most respects, until right click context menus took off on the PC.

However it is worth pointing out that system 7.1-7.5 was just as crashy as Windows 3.1, anyone wishing to compare them can drop by my house and check for themselves!

And one to bug the Mac guys with, Windows 95 introduced true multitasking long before the Mac had it.




Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[jhardy1]

My first rule of computer purchasing:

Application software (i.e. the software you use to actually accomplish a task) has real value. Operating systems and hardware are merely the platforms upon which you run applications software. There is very little point in having the "best" platform (whether you consider Mac, Windows, Linux, etc to be the "best"), if you can't afford the applications software you need, or worse still, if it simply doesn't exist on the particular platform.

My advice:

1) Choose your software first. Make a list of the types of software applications you wan to run - e.g. word processing, spreadsheet, CAD, FEA, CFD, etc. Extend this list to give the names of specific packages that you know of which will meet your objectives. List the features that are "must haves" and "nice to haves". Get pricing information, and compare with your budget. Decide exactly which software systems you will be buying.

2) From the list of applications you have decided on, what hardware and operating systems are supported? Can they all run on the same platform? If not, you need to decide whether you will need two operating systems (maybe even two computers - not a great option for most individuals!), or can you live with an alternative software solution on a single operating system?

3) If the software solutions you have selected only run on Windows (say), then your choice is easy - you need a Windows machine. If they are available on multiple platforms, you need to do some more research on performance, cost of purchase, total cost of ownership of the alternatives, etc.

If you only need basic word processing, spreadsheets, etc, then any platform will work fine. If you must have AutoCAD for example, you will need Windows. If you need Pro Engineer (say), you can look at several options, including Unix, Linux and Windows.

Hope this helps!

 

[jhardy1]

I see GregLocock beat me to the punch - but I think it is fair to say we are in broad agreement with each other!

 

[Qshake]

GregLocock et al

Thanks for the notes thus far. Perhaps a bit more information is in line so that neither a OS war is waged and too much precious time is spent educating me on software.

I've been around since forever and have used a multitude of software packages. Even with all the bells and whistles of many structural software packages I still find time to hone my FORTRAN skills. This way I can personalize some of my software (and in some cases have began development of code prior to some of the software giants - recent efforts on pushover analysis comes to mind - now mind you, I wasn't in front on the ideaology or some of the research programs).

All that said, I have always felt that the Windows driven PC environment had the most attention of the engineering software development (as GregLocock noted) and was shocked to see a statement in a thread to the contrary. Thus the reason for my question.

Other comments I've heard in the past is that illustrative software on the MAC is phenomenal, but as you've pointed out these are things that may be found in an architectual office and not an engineer's office.

I would still appreciate the comments received on the two systems.

Thanks again,
Qshake


Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[Qshake]

BTW, the comment is made in the Best CAD program post in this forum.

Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[flamby]

If you start counting the number of applications available, all roads just lead to W2K and you are not left with any choices to make. However, I wish I had something better in this world than Gate's crap which runs quite steadily in my office PC, thanks to a million patches and third party anti-virus software our IT guys dump on it. But my home PC is incredible and strange popups, crashes, messages happen all the time when I connect to the internet using modem. I can not afford all these safety things on my home PC. I do not know why on earth MicroSoft is not responsible for the hacking and spamming stuff on rampage these days. I know that these issues are also with other OS but Windows is just too porous.

 

[PSE]

flamby,

Get the spyware out of your system. Ad-aware and Spybot both have free user versions. It should help you out on your home PC, a firewall like Zonealarm (also a free version) is useful.

Best OS depends on the applications as Greg points out. Most pervasive for the "personal level" tends to be Microsoft. From my experience, the system administrators tend to choose what is most convienient for them and then the user apps get added as needed.

Regards,

 

[ctopher]

IMO, Macs are for computer illiterate's (I'm not trashing anyone, just the word I can think of right now). They are basic pc's they work very well for graphics, and are very straight forward in operation. Win pc's are for computer literate's that want to do more and they are much more affordable. When a MAC crashes, it has few fixes. Win pc's have various more ways to fix. Win pc's have alot more software options than Macs. Just my 2 cents.

 

[AJUK]

ctopher,

With respect, you are talking rubbish. Macs are not for computer illiterate they are for people who do not want to put up with the crap that Microsoft laughably calls an operating system. I have a Mac at home and use a Windows PC at work, the reason is that, in the UK at least, there just isn't the range of software available on the design side, sadly most engineering software developers program for a Wintel system.

Back to the question at hand, there are some good points raised above about choosing your software first then the most appropriate platform from which to run it, I am also of the opinion that Windows 2K is the best platform for an engineering designer, although if you are getting a new OS, sadly Win XP will make more sense, just turn off most of the features and you may just get a stable system.

I cannot finish this post without stoking up the religious Mac versus PC debate a little more (it's been one of those mornings ). Macs are simply years ahead of Windows in usability, security and stability, my previous Mac (now using a splendid iMac G5 as from earlier this month) was never rebooted from the first time I started it, never crashed, never slowed down, got infected with virus or spyware and was running continually for three years solid without a break. You would be lucky to run a Windows PC for three days without a crash. As for innovation, remember USB, Firewire, Bluetooth (with Ericsson) are all Apple inventions, oh, as is a windows interface. Enough said.

 

[GregLocock]

"With respect, you are talking rubbish."

Charming, for someone who then goes on to do the same.

1)I must be very lucky then, my W2k PC has uptimes of the order of months, usually it only gets rebooted when the systems guys insist.

2) Anyone who claims a single button mouse is a usability improvement over a proper one must have only one finger.

3) And you obviously know nothing about the history of WIMP interfaces. clue: PARC


Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[Beggar]

To me, the simplest reason to run a Wintel machine vs. a Mac - besides the software availability - is the simple cost of hardware.

I'm running a mid-range machine that cost $500 and included a 120 Gb HD, 512 Mb RAM, a DVD drive and CD/RW burner. I decided to upgrade and popped $60 for a second HD (160 Gb), another 512 Mb ($60), and just got a DVD burner for $40. Oh yeah, my CD burner died so I replaced it with a 52X burner that cost $5 after rebate.

With those prices, I simply couldn't afford to move to a Mac even if they did have the software I wanted.

Macs are fine machines but since Apple is the only company building parts and peripherals, they're just too pricey for a cheapskate like me.

Like Greg Locock, I've had very little trouble with a Win2K machine, especially if I'm careful to keep it unclogged with adware, spyware, etc.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15

http://www.hp15c.org

--------------------

 

[ctopher]

GregLocock,

 

[flamby]

Well, the thread is going pretty alongwith Greg's predictions. But my point is that Microsoft is nowhere near Unix as far as security is concerned. W2K claimed that, but we have learned that the file level security is only a unix feature and Gates will spend a few decades to near his boasts. Without third party security software, vendor-developed devide driveres, Windows is a just a crap as much as a free download software available over the internet.

If you don't believe me just try to access the internet with vanilla Windows. In a week you will come to terms with reality.

If Greg says that a good look, ergonomic steering, comfortable seating, well shockers are all that are are needed to make a good car, would you believe him?

Greg, please stop rubbish. Afterall you are tipmaster of the week.

 

[johnwm]

I have an WinTel machine running XP that is stable with an uptime since I installed XP (I believe around 2 years). I am permanently connected to the internet via ADSL, with no viruses, spyware or other malware and very little spam.

The issue isn't with Microsoft (or Linux or even MacOS), it's with sloppy users. Simple application of XP firewall (free, built-in and accurately described in Help), along with up-to-date antivirus software (look up Symantec or Sophos or Grisoft) will keep your browsing activities unhampered. If you don't like (or don't trust) XP firewall then try either a hardware firewall (probably already in your router) or look for something like Kerio or ZoneAlarm. If you're concerned over browser vulnerabilities with IE, then use the (much safer and reliable) Firefox or Mozilla, both available on a free download, and both containing good pop-up blockers.

There are also spam-blockers available for your email client if your company hasn't already got it.

A computer is a bit like a car - you should at least learn the basics of driving before venturing out on the highway, or on the information superhighway as the case may be.

Mind you, I shouldn't really be telling you all this - I make a good income from sorting out the messes that ignorant users get themselves into

Good Luck
johnwm
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[IRstuff]

Should also remember that other OS's are "robust," simply because they have so small a user base that hackers don't find them interesting to hack. But, as has been reported, LINUX and its variants have indeed made it to the big time, since there is now a Linux security website:

http://www.linuxsecurity.com/content/blogcategory/0/76/

The Mac doesn't seem to be as bad, but, again, it's most likely that there simply aren't enough Macs to make it worthwhile to hack:

http://www.securemac.com/

TTFN

 

[AJUK]

For a very good, in depth, non-biased viewpoint this site has done a comparison between the two OS's.

http://www.xvsxp.com/

 

[GregLocock]

ctopher - I'm sorry, I think I implied something that I didn't mean.




Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[johnhors]

GregLocock gave the clue "Parc"

Wasn't there a court case some years ago when Apple took on Microsoft for stealing "Their" windows interface, which Apple lost because Microsoft pointed out that Apple copied it from Xerox Parc in the first place!

Come to think of it, I have vague memories of the Beatles (yes I mean John,Paul,George and Ringo) taking on Apple for stealing their record companies branding ........

 

[IRstuff]

That was resolved a while ago, although the IPOD may revive that issue

TTFN