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How to be a: "Team Player" ? 10
- Thread starter NickE
- Start date
Though I gotta say there are people I work with who like to fling around the accusatory emails with CCs to everyone's boss, and yet they don't seem to be in career decline, the bastards. (And of course, when they turn out to be full of crap, there's no correction or retraction email getting the same circulation...)
Who knows, maybe they'd be further ahead than they are if they weren't such jerks.
Hg
Who knows, maybe they'd be further ahead than they are if they weren't such jerks.
Hg
Goes to show you should never fire off any email without hard data to back your claims (ie CYA).
[green]"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."[/green]
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
[green]"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."[/green]
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
Like I said, that rule doesn't seem to apply to some golden boys...
I've done a couple of angry emails myself but not gotten in any real trouble for them. Those that just went up my chain of command evaporated into the ether, and those that went across to someone more or less my peer in the other division created a bit of kerfuffle but got the ball rolling to rectify the situation--because I had some support from my bosses, even if it wasn't always as much as I wanted.
CYA doesn't just mean have all the hard facts. CYA also means make sure, if you're going to rock the boat, that you have the social/political stability to remain in the boat in the process. When you make waves (ooh, my first extended metaphor of 2005), you rock everyone else too, and how that plays out depends entirely on whether they think you're worth that kind of disturbance. It ain't fair, but some people can get away with more boat-rocking than others.
Hg
I've done a couple of angry emails myself but not gotten in any real trouble for them. Those that just went up my chain of command evaporated into the ether, and those that went across to someone more or less my peer in the other division created a bit of kerfuffle but got the ball rolling to rectify the situation--because I had some support from my bosses, even if it wasn't always as much as I wanted.
CYA doesn't just mean have all the hard facts. CYA also means make sure, if you're going to rock the boat, that you have the social/political stability to remain in the boat in the process. When you make waves (ooh, my first extended metaphor of 2005), you rock everyone else too, and how that plays out depends entirely on whether they think you're worth that kind of disturbance. It ain't fair, but some people can get away with more boat-rocking than others.
Hg
As an ISO90002-2000 company, I find that filling out a Corrective/Preventive Action Request can go a long way towards fixing things I see as being wrong without having to worry about being negatively labeled.
[green]"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."[/green]
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
I've seen my fair share of this and it always makes me wonder how these people manage it.HgTX said:
[green]"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."[/green]
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
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1
- #25
NickE,
I feel for you, I have been in similar situations. May I offer from my own experience:
Remember that your purpose at the company is to provide your experience, information, skills to benefit the company goals. Companys have no obligation to use your ideas (public safety concerns aside). It will help your career to present your opinions in a manner that is as easy as possible for your peers and higher ups, and preferably in a way that is perceived as helping the process.
First, when I have difficult situations, the most important thing is to take an emotional step back. The exchange of ideas shouldn't be personal - though it is very easy to take it as personal, especially when there are personality or cultural clashes. Here it is very helpful to have a friendly relationship with your coworkers. I LOVE smacking down people that I can't stand, and rush to defend people that I like - its human nature, not very professional and bad for the process, but will never change. Maybe
NickE can get over it, but I guarantee your coworkers won't. Surely you can find a few things of interest to discuss with coworkers. Go ahead and be inefficient and waste a few minutes by the coffee pot talking, join a group lunch a few times a month, invite some people over to your place to watch the world cup, or enter the office basketball pool (if you don't know anything about sports - talk to the office guru for tips - it'll flatter them to no end). It's not wrong to "waste" company time doing some of these things for the sake of team building.
Second, try to start your differeing opinions from areas that you have common agreement on. Then present your opinions as ways to meet the goal or build on success. EG, Agree that Bob's suggestions make the widget cheaper to produce, and express that you will also reanalyze the failure scenarios to ensure there won't be a detrimental effect on product life. Notice you don't have to say that his suggestion is good or the best, just that it does help in someway. Then you will simply do the required work to help document that the changes won't affect other areas - even if you strongly suggest that they will.
Third, explain your progress to your boss before presenting to the group and let your boss present positives and negatives. A wonderul boss will take heat for any percieved negativism and let you take the credit for solving the problem. A good boss will simply back you and stand firm to your results. If you do the presenting, be simple and clear, don't speak down to marketing and don't try to sound like you have a master's degree in engineering because it won't impress anyone. Allow the group to go into detail as necessary and expect some criticism. If the suggestion ends up making a huge financial benefit, it will probably outweight your concerns. That's life in corporate.
Finally, sometimes go with what others want and don't be a jerk, this shows trust. This is especially true when working for people who are under you on the corporate sturcture, and when the outcome is NOT going to be disasterous to your time line or budget. Don't be patronizing, maybe others just need the opportunity to learn through their own experience what you already know. Maybe you will learn something, if nothing else it helps to add to the knowledge base.
I hope these suggestions help you. It sounds like you have lots of time left in the working world and the sooner you learn to work within the corporate bounds, the easier your life will be.
I feel for you, I have been in similar situations. May I offer from my own experience:
Remember that your purpose at the company is to provide your experience, information, skills to benefit the company goals. Companys have no obligation to use your ideas (public safety concerns aside). It will help your career to present your opinions in a manner that is as easy as possible for your peers and higher ups, and preferably in a way that is perceived as helping the process.
First, when I have difficult situations, the most important thing is to take an emotional step back. The exchange of ideas shouldn't be personal - though it is very easy to take it as personal, especially when there are personality or cultural clashes. Here it is very helpful to have a friendly relationship with your coworkers. I LOVE smacking down people that I can't stand, and rush to defend people that I like - its human nature, not very professional and bad for the process, but will never change. Maybe
NickE can get over it, but I guarantee your coworkers won't. Surely you can find a few things of interest to discuss with coworkers. Go ahead and be inefficient and waste a few minutes by the coffee pot talking, join a group lunch a few times a month, invite some people over to your place to watch the world cup, or enter the office basketball pool (if you don't know anything about sports - talk to the office guru for tips - it'll flatter them to no end). It's not wrong to "waste" company time doing some of these things for the sake of team building.
Second, try to start your differeing opinions from areas that you have common agreement on. Then present your opinions as ways to meet the goal or build on success. EG, Agree that Bob's suggestions make the widget cheaper to produce, and express that you will also reanalyze the failure scenarios to ensure there won't be a detrimental effect on product life. Notice you don't have to say that his suggestion is good or the best, just that it does help in someway. Then you will simply do the required work to help document that the changes won't affect other areas - even if you strongly suggest that they will.
Third, explain your progress to your boss before presenting to the group and let your boss present positives and negatives. A wonderul boss will take heat for any percieved negativism and let you take the credit for solving the problem. A good boss will simply back you and stand firm to your results. If you do the presenting, be simple and clear, don't speak down to marketing and don't try to sound like you have a master's degree in engineering because it won't impress anyone. Allow the group to go into detail as necessary and expect some criticism. If the suggestion ends up making a huge financial benefit, it will probably outweight your concerns. That's life in corporate.
Finally, sometimes go with what others want and don't be a jerk, this shows trust. This is especially true when working for people who are under you on the corporate sturcture, and when the outcome is NOT going to be disasterous to your time line or budget. Don't be patronizing, maybe others just need the opportunity to learn through their own experience what you already know. Maybe you will learn something, if nothing else it helps to add to the knowledge base.
I hope these suggestions help you. It sounds like you have lots of time left in the working world and the sooner you learn to work within the corporate bounds, the easier your life will be.
- Thread starter
- #26
HgTX said:
I think that this was exactly my problem. Since I did have documented proof of the conditions I described in the e-mail. I just dont have the socio-political power/influence to complain and still get to keep my seat in the boat.
My boss is'nt particularly mad at me per-se. It's more that he doesnt want to see me go.
Since I put the kiddie pool in motion, hopefully over the next month or two I can dampen some of the waves and things will get better around here.
Make 'em realize how valuable you are. I get away with a lot because I'm the only one around who does what I do (sounds like you got that part down) and fortunately people recognize the need for what I do. (And because when I'm not kicking up a fuss, I'm so goddam charming.)
Hg
Hg
Two lessons for all:
1. Never assume "someone else" won't see your email. It's always possible the person you sent it to in confidence will forward it, also in confidence, and eventially the entire wold knows. I don't expect people to give hours of though every time they compoase an email (I know I don't); but all should try to remember what eventially LCOL Ollie North caught - emails!
2. CCing others on an email should be done with a purpose in mind. If you send an email to your boss, and cc others (like his boss, or his peers), its for a reason. If I were your boss, I may assume it was to "put me on report". What else should I think? I'm not saying you NEVER do it; but if/when you do, you'd better have your "ducks in a row", AND be sure not to be inflamatory or emotional in how you type the email - this is a case where a few hours of reflection is probably warranted before you hit SEND.
1. Never assume "someone else" won't see your email. It's always possible the person you sent it to in confidence will forward it, also in confidence, and eventially the entire wold knows. I don't expect people to give hours of though every time they compoase an email (I know I don't); but all should try to remember what eventially LCOL Ollie North caught - emails!
2. CCing others on an email should be done with a purpose in mind. If you send an email to your boss, and cc others (like his boss, or his peers), its for a reason. If I were your boss, I may assume it was to "put me on report". What else should I think? I'm not saying you NEVER do it; but if/when you do, you'd better have your "ducks in a row", AND be sure not to be inflamatory or emotional in how you type the email - this is a case where a few hours of reflection is probably warranted before you hit SEND.
That would be me who brought up the dreaded Myers/Briggs....LOL
I am going to look up the Kolbe, I have not heard of that one....
I thought these were a lot of bull at first, but after I started looking at people knowing their M/B score, it really helped in how I communicate with them, and how they communicate with me.
BobPE
I am going to look up the Kolbe, I have not heard of that one....
I thought these were a lot of bull at first, but after I started looking at people knowing their M/B score, it really helped in how I communicate with them, and how they communicate with me.
BobPE
I don't doubt that it helps with communication. But I bet if they had a completely different M/B score because they took the test on Monday instead of Tuesday, it would still help in communication, just like my horoscope and my fortune cookies often seem relevant. Good general advice pretending to be specific is still good advice.
Further MB discussion, I suppose, should go to the MB thread, thread1010-105611
Hg
Further MB discussion, I suppose, should go to the MB thread, thread1010-105611
Hg
automatic2
Industrial
A word of advice. Sit down with Stephen Covey's 7 habits. Consider carefully his ideas on the maturity continuim relating to dependance/independance/interdependance. It's all up to you.
to quote NickE
"It might be good to mention that I am (AFAIK) the highest educated engineer at my location."
Followed by....
"I'm just finishing my 3rd year out of Ms school."
Reminded me of my favorite Mark Twain Quote:
"Don't let you schooling interfere with your education"
DON"T CONFUSE DEGREES WITH EXPERTISE!!
"It might be good to mention that I am (AFAIK) the highest educated engineer at my location."
Followed by....
"I'm just finishing my 3rd year out of Ms school."
Reminded me of my favorite Mark Twain Quote:
"Don't let you schooling interfere with your education"
DON"T CONFUSE DEGREES WITH EXPERTISE!!
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2
- #34
"There really isnt anyone around me that is able to follow a technical discussion at a level above generalities. When I bring up mechanics, or mathe in general I get told that all Im doing is clouding the issue. "
Rule #1 - Don't use your engineering education or proof when talking to non-engineers.
I guess part of my problem is I dont belive in engineering "opinions". Either it makes sense using provable physics/math/etc or it doesnt.
Believe it or not, this is not always true. If you are working with an experienced engineer, I would trust their opinion more than a newbies numbers just about any day of the week. Just because they didn't crunch the numbers this time doesn't mean that they haven't before.
It might be good to mention that I am (AFAIK) the highest educated engineer at my location. Also I have a large vocabulary that tends to make people think I am talking down to them.
You probably are...most engineers do. Everything about your post suggests that you DO think you are better than everyone else. In my experience, a MS degree in Engineering is equivalent to about 2 years of work experience...maybe less. You are in the real world now and your degree means precisely squat.
I tend to prefer working alone since then if anything goes wrong its definately my fault. And if I do it then I know its done. Also I know that all the paper work will be done properly if I do it. Others around here tend to take shortcuts that end up being the long way around and then add excessively to my workload.
While this may be true, unless you start your own business and do all of your own work, you are doomed to working with others for the next 30 years.
I would suggest trying not to think of your knowledge or experience as better than anyone elses.
Remember, your job is NOT your life. Being frustrated at other people's stupidity will only give you an ulcer.
Rule #1 - Don't use your engineering education or proof when talking to non-engineers.
I guess part of my problem is I dont belive in engineering "opinions". Either it makes sense using provable physics/math/etc or it doesnt.
Believe it or not, this is not always true. If you are working with an experienced engineer, I would trust their opinion more than a newbies numbers just about any day of the week. Just because they didn't crunch the numbers this time doesn't mean that they haven't before.
It might be good to mention that I am (AFAIK) the highest educated engineer at my location. Also I have a large vocabulary that tends to make people think I am talking down to them.
You probably are...most engineers do. Everything about your post suggests that you DO think you are better than everyone else. In my experience, a MS degree in Engineering is equivalent to about 2 years of work experience...maybe less. You are in the real world now and your degree means precisely squat.
I tend to prefer working alone since then if anything goes wrong its definately my fault. And if I do it then I know its done. Also I know that all the paper work will be done properly if I do it. Others around here tend to take shortcuts that end up being the long way around and then add excessively to my workload.
While this may be true, unless you start your own business and do all of your own work, you are doomed to working with others for the next 30 years.
I would suggest trying not to think of your knowledge or experience as better than anyone elses.
Remember, your job is NOT your life. Being frustrated at other people's stupidity will only give you an ulcer.
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