History Channel Program - Failing Infrastructure

[oldestguy]

In case you have not seen this yet, it is an interesting two hour program. ASCE got into the act some and generally it is well presented. You will spot some typical reporter errors, but look for it. California sure got covered.

 

[ishvaaag]

Apparently the present solar minimum if not other aspects of solar system's travel through space are making apparent some inadequacies of beliefs or scientific evaluations of geological and climate's behaviour. Our statistical series of measured values seems simply be too short, think in the many glaciation terms known to have hit earth. So as long we use values derived from fairer weather and lesser geological turmoil we are set for surprises.

 

[Qshake]

The infrastructure of most countries (I'd be willing to bet it's not just America) is failing. This is true because it has met it's useful life either in terms of years or capacity no longer meets demand. Yet for some reason civil engineers (we) are reluctant to raise the issue for fear of being called ambulance chasers as is typically applied to lawyers.

ASCE has done a very good thing with the Report Card effort, which started in the late 90s, grading America's infrastructure. However, it alone cannot win the battle and locally civil engineers need to make a stronger voice.

The problem is only going to get worse.

Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[Debaser]

Yet for some reason civil engineers (we) are reluctant to raise the issue for fear of being called ambulance chasers as is typically applied to lawyers.

Could it also be down to a fear within the professional societies that if they did just did that, those outside the industry, those with no idea about 'design life', etc. would just point fingers and ask why it was failing?

At that point, all the arguments re economics and rates of return usually just get subsumed by the old '...well if the Romans could build things to last millenia why can't we?' nonsense.

 

[bridgebuster]

Sometimes, even within our profession we're called ambulance chasers. several years ago, I had a multiple bridge rehabilitation project, which included several concrete rigid frame bridges. It took three years to convince my counterpart at DOT to replace one of the concrete rigid frames.

Based on the client's design criteria for the project, the cost and time to rehab the bridge, it wasn't feasible. The argument from the other side "consultants only recommend bridge replacement to increase their fee."

 

[Qshake]

debaser - I agree with what you've noted. My hope is that any discussion on the matter by an informed profession and the public would be a great start to a dialogue aimed at understanding the problems.

As to the Romans, well, we could explain that most of their works, while certainly great, were usually developed with wealth, materials, and labor gained as a result of war. This is how the empire was built.

So if the public is willing to condone that sort of thing then we can get back to building things to last centuries.

Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[jgailla]

http://www.despair.com/achievement.html

 

[Patgeotech]

In South Africa, the failing infrastructure is being tackled headon - the 2010 Football World Cup probably helped in this regard to some extent (but there is still lots to be done). The main aspect is that failing infrastructure is properly identified and rectified before something goes wrong - I suppose we design more for sustainability here due to our engineering/economic/social challenges being far greater. If an engineer is looking for a challenge, then Africa sure does have challenges in all aspects.


I cannot help but think of the Romans and their roads - wonder what design life their engineers originally designed for?

 

[Qshake]

And one more thing certainly rings true. The romans had nice stone roads and even a cementituous material, pozzolan. SImilar to what we've based much of our work on but the loads and cycles are vastly different. That's one reason for the longevity of their works.

Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[rconner]

I have not yet seen this particular History Channel program, but I will look forward to seeing same. Others have however referred to the ASCE “Report Card” grades given to various aspects of USA infrastructure (many quite poor) I suspect mentioned therein. There are of course substantial/undeniable problems with much varied existing infrastructure, that most of us don’t have to look too far to see. Also, there is no doubt also that when sources of funding are available, or can be cultivated politically etc. for efforts at maintaining or replacing same, many of us who are in the infrastructure business can benefit or more dependably sustain our livelihood.

I have noticed that the ASCE Report Card, that incidentally was put out “two months ahead of schedule” (whatever that means), e.g. bestowed one of its lowest grades (a “D-“) to (I guess the collective areas of) water. This was an interesting contrast to the feeling I had gotten from many other reports I thought I had seen over the years about this area (of which I am some familiar), in which that the United States had made marked strides in the areas of water treatment and distribution, with the result being its citizens have had access to some of the best quality water at the least cost compared to standard of living of all countries on earth.

I decided therefore to go online today and look for the latest “facts” I could find. I quickly found the UNESCO report at

http://www.unesco.org/water/wwap/facts_figures/water_cities.shtml

that indicates the following:

1. Proportion of households in “major cities” connected to “piped water” – North America is listed at “100%” (next highest specific continent listed is Europe at 92%.
2. Proportion of households in “major cities” connected to sewers – North America is listed at 96% (next highest… Europe @ 92%).

The United States also rated a “100” in both ”Access to an improved water source” and “Access to improved sanitation facilities” 2004 cells in Table 1.3 Millennium Development Goals… at the site

http://books.google.com/books?id=lM...=world safe drinking water indicators&f=false

.

UNESCO also in the aforementioned reports the USA has the fourth lowest absolute water cost of the 15 countries listed at

http://www.unesco.org/water/wwap/facts_figures/valuing_water.shtml

. I suspect the average North American is in general charged only a very small percentage of their income for water, compared to much of the world.

The site at

http://www.usgs.gov/corecast/details.asp?ep=108

and others also state that on a per capita basis the United States incidentally is reportedly using nearly 30% less water than about 30 years ago.

With regard e.g. to the actual water systems of the United States, I notice the recent paper prepared by AWWA for the United States Environmental Protection Agency at

http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw/disinfection/tcr/pdfs/issuepaper_tcr_ds-inventory.pdf

gives some interesting statistics on page 5, and in the only specific numbers I saw on condition etc. in this paper the table on this page basically indicates 97% of the piping more than 30 years old was in excellent to fair condition.

While it is maybe of lesser importance in the big scheme of things, I noticed also that in a taste contest that has gone on for many years at

http://www.berkeleysprings.com/water/winners09.htm

that garnered entries from eight countries around the world, the United States had four of the top five best tasting water entries.

In summary… should we do better? – Yes. Can we do better? – (IMO) Yes. Is there waste that can be reduced? – Yes. Can a case be made, though without subterfuge, that USA citizens individually or collectively as government etc. are not paying enough to support infrastructure? –I suspect Yes. Is much infrastructure overtaxed or undersized for the modern loads it is now asked to bear? – Definitely. Are there some failures of infrastructure before their time? – Yes, we should learn from them. Is appropriate and practical condition assessment and maintenance in general a good idea? – Yes, when it is correctly done, analyzed, and appropriate decisions reached. Should we learn from utilities and yes, maybe even “consultants” from elsewhere in the World? – Yes, when it is in the best interests of our citizens.

Would I personally put such a very poor overall “grade” on this type or other infrastructure that has done/is doing the aforementioned jobs (that I fear could conceivably reflect negatively or unjustly on the original designers, installers, operators, and maintainers etc. of all these utilities, some of whom are long since past, with the aforementioned accomplishments and performance)? NO, not until I better understood any bottom line facts allegedly supporting same, the grading curve, or what the absolute yardstick for the performance of this aggregate infrastructure etc. is (as of course some of this USA water infrastructure is apparently still providing cost-effective service nearly 200 years after it was originally installed!)

These are my own observations and opinions.


"I met a traveler from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal these words appear:
“My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away."
(“Ozymandias” by Percy Bysshe Shelley, 1817)