Hand drafted steel shops 4

[JoeBaseplate]

I am working on this medium sized renovation job where we are adding some steel beams, bar joists, a few columns, a couple of steel framed mezzanines etc to an existing facility. In my mind the job is large enough for the steel contractor to provide proper drafted shops but he has submitted hand drawn shops. Aren’t these outdated now? But are they still allowed, and if so would this be addressed somewhere in AISC or should this have been addressed in the job specs.

 

[JLNJ]

Why would one need special pemission to hand-draw shops?

You might have a better chance of getting a detailer who knows what he's doing when the shops are done by hand!

 

[JoeBaseplate]

JLNJ, I am reminded of a line from Hangover 1 "I thought it was frowned upon".....and that's why I wanted expert opinion. So there is no code requirement to have computer drawn shops for a project then!

 

[JAE]

When you say hand-drafted - do you mean sketches - no straight-edged lines, etc.?

Or do you mean non-autocad drawings?

Either would be fine as long as the CONTENT is correct and the drawings are correctly drawn, neat, organized and coherent.

 

[ToadJones]

I have had to review some CAD shops in the past that were so bad it left me wishing for some good old 1940's hand drawn shops showing every single rivet head to scale!

 

[JoeBaseplate]

JAE, they are drawn with straight edge and all but are not very neat and they don't have all the piece marks. And that's my beef with this submittal.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Bitch to the steel contractor for better drawings. But 30 years ago - actually more like 20 - you would be lucky to get Auto-cad type drawings.

And as a matter of fact both hand drawn and Auto-cad are ONLY as good as the operator.

I have a friend/designer who does beautiful hand drawn prints - just don't ask him to change anything!!!

 

[Teguci]

Most agree that hand drawn is still the faster method for a skilled drafter (with obvious caveats). I can't think of a reason to not accept well drafted, hand drawn detailing.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Agree - I can still draft faster than CAD - but the changes are a bitch!!

 

[ToadJones]

well an obvious caveat is standard beams/connections etc.
I can blast out numerous beams simply by stretching and other quick commands in CAD

 

[RHTPE]

Accuracy of the content is far more important than the means by which it got put it on paper.

I recall a few projects where EVERY architectural detail had been hand-drafted (i.e. NO straight-edged lines) on fade-out grid tracing paper. Actually very nicely drawn and VERY accurate and complete.

It's not the method that counts - only the finished product. If the hand-drafted drawings contain all the necessary information for fabrication, what is the problem? From my perspective, it could be hand-sketched on a cocktail napkin, photo-copied and issued to the shop.

Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA

 

[JoeBaseplate]

Thanks for all the input. Like I said, I was under the impression that there was something unprofessional about hand drawn sketches but I was wrong.

 

[msquared48]

Some jurisdictions do require CADD, but I would not expect that here. If it has what you need and is readable, more power to the hand drawn solution.

Like MikeTheEngineer, I can also draft faster by hand, less any changes.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Just found some copies of hand drawn prints in my office that are over 100 years old. They are works of ART and very detailed.

I could take those to any GC and he could build from them. Also have some "sketches" drawn on god knows what and would make my 5 year old grand son proud.

But guess what - it had every dimension and size I needed. We took his idea and very easily came up with an engineered drawing.

I get PDF "crap" e-mailed every day from engineers and architects. There are no dimensions, no sections, just BS. You call them up and they say just use the scale. Well after you have PDFed them, copied them, scanned them and then e-mailed - there is NO scale left.

Give me a "good" drawing on any media any day and I can make it fly!!!

 

[RHTPE]

MiketheEngineer -

As someone who managed an engineering dept for many years I always believed that labeling the scale of a plan of section or detail on a shop drawing is totally unnecessary. A properly constructed shop drawing will have every piece of information necessary displayed on it. Further, a drawing intended to be used by a man in the field to construct something should never require the use of a scale (Like the typical carpenter has a scale in his/her pocket or toolbelt).

The one bad thing about CAD is that it is causing those who produce working/shop drawings to lose understanding of the information required on the paper version of their computer model. For them, it's just too easy to determine a distance or dimension - the CAD model knows exactly what it is. Being so close to the model makes them lose sight of how to convey the necessary information to the end user of the paper drawing.


Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA

 

[gwynn]

"For them, it's just too easy to determine a distance or dimension - the CAD model knows exactly what it is."

Until changes are made partway through a design and someone starts editing the dimensions instead of changing the drawing model. I've seen our head draftsmam literally pull his hair out when trying to incorporate other people's drawings into his own due to this.

 

[Ron]

Ralph...nicely stated in both posts. Agree completely.

I can sketch faster by hand than AutoCAD, but then there are those who are much better at AC than I. I have problems with scaling issues in AC. Don't have that in my hand sketches.

All that being said, I still prefer AC drawings. I remember the years of being on a board with care being given to line weight, line width, ink or pencil, plotting geometry, etc. Great learning experience, but wouldn't want to go back.

 

[RHTPE]

Ron -

All that being said, I still prefer AC drawings. I remember the years of being on a board with care being given to line weight, line width, ink or pencil, plotting geometry, etc. Great learning experience, but wouldn't want to go back.

Which brings up a pet peeve of mine with some of today's CAD drawings - using the same lineweight for everything OR not giving adequate thought towards the hierarchy of drawing lineweights.

Properly done, line weights can literally ensure a quick and clear understanding of a plan or section. Done poorly, it only serves to confuse.

By now, I'm sure that this thread has ventured far from the OP's question.

Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA

 

[ToadJones]

Okay-
There is one thing that, to me, makes CAD superior to old shops....
I can't tell you how many times I have to look at one column or beam detail that was used to make 21 different beams with notes garbled all over the drawing. Of course I understand that this was necessary b/c the drafters didn't want to draw every piece, but damn does this make some messy drawings. With CAD you just copy the beam, stretch and fix some dimensions and change the BOM.

Most of the crap shops I have seen were generated by 3D modeling software like TEKLA X-Steel. When I used that software in 2004 thru 2006 it "scrubbed out" the worst shop drawings the world has ever seen. They were so bad it was literally unbelievable.

A good detailer is a good detailer whether he is using a pencil or CAD

 

[connectegr]

The quality of shop drawings should be independent of method of creation, hand drawn or cad generated. Some of the worst drawings I have ever reviewed have been software generated, and the draftsman (term used loosely) blamed the software. Computer aided drafting should be a tool for a qualified draftsman to create a higher quality product. BUT, today cad is an excuse to not learn the important detail information required for quality fabrication and erection. A short time ago, at the beginning of a career, a lucky engineer began on the drawing board. Rolling their pencil to maintain consistent letter size and thickness. Calculating the triangles to determine slopes, curves, and sweeps. College classes did not teach anything about fabrication or practical steel construction. This was taught in the drawing room. I admit the my drafting skills where greatly improved by the use of AutoCAD. But, quality shop drawings can be created by hand. Many Detailers can letter and provide linework, that rivals a nice computer printer. The primary consideration in selection of drafting tools, should be the level of integration with the fabrication system. CNC equipment makes the cad data files essential. The engineers preference of drawing presentation should have little role in the drafting method.

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com