I am designing an RV storage facility and cannot find any information about fire flow requirements. The local Fire Department will not provide any guidance except to call it a mobile home park. (That is crazy since there is no one living there.) It is not a parking garage, but is just open parking, like a parking lot. NFPA has no code for this type of facility. Other RV parks say they were given guidance from the local FD. Any suggestions?
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Fire flow requirements for RV Storage?
- Thread starter Mo Mentum
- Start date
LittleInch
Petroleum
So what guidance is the for a parking lot?
How closely attacked are these?
I assume you're just taking hydrants?
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
How closely attacked are these?
I assume you're just taking hydrants?
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
- Thread starter
- #3
The lot design is pretty open. The local municipality has no requirements beyond what other state and local agencies might require. So it is basically an open parking lot like any store may have. The spaces are currently set at 12' wide. The lot will hold self-driven recreational vehicles, pull-behind trailers and boats. The main concern is for a fire to spread along the line of parked units. It is a remote location in that there are no buildings or habitable structures closer than 500'.
There is currently no water supply to the site. And that is the problem. Bringing in a water line requires crossing a deep creek located immediately adjacent to a major roadway, making construction difficult and expensive. The next issue is a railroad crossing (and we all know what a hassle that can be). The current alternative is a dry pond fed by a well. (Thinking of something like a 50' diameter/6' deep pond with a suction pipe for the fire department to connect to.)
It is the sizing of the pond that I am current struggling with. If I knew the gpm and time period requirements, all could be easily designed. Basically, the fire department wants the designer to state what code they are following and then sign off on the design. In other words, the Fire Marshall wants a CYA situation so he can just point to someone else, instead of providing any sort of guidance. (He is new to the job and seems to have no clue.)
But not finding any code makes this difficult. I have talked to three other firms and no one can find any code beyond parking garages that comes close. I know this sounds hopeless, but I'm thinking someone might have a different approach to establishing fire flow requirements. Any sort of reasonable calculation that seems to make sense should allow me to get started with a flow design that can meet the FD's concerns and provide a safe development. Considering this not a staffed site and no one is living on or near the place, this is not a life safety issue.
I'm open to suggestions. Thanks for any help you can think of!
There is currently no water supply to the site. And that is the problem. Bringing in a water line requires crossing a deep creek located immediately adjacent to a major roadway, making construction difficult and expensive. The next issue is a railroad crossing (and we all know what a hassle that can be). The current alternative is a dry pond fed by a well. (Thinking of something like a 50' diameter/6' deep pond with a suction pipe for the fire department to connect to.)
It is the sizing of the pond that I am current struggling with. If I knew the gpm and time period requirements, all could be easily designed. Basically, the fire department wants the designer to state what code they are following and then sign off on the design. In other words, the Fire Marshall wants a CYA situation so he can just point to someone else, instead of providing any sort of guidance. (He is new to the job and seems to have no clue.)
But not finding any code makes this difficult. I have talked to three other firms and no one can find any code beyond parking garages that comes close. I know this sounds hopeless, but I'm thinking someone might have a different approach to establishing fire flow requirements. Any sort of reasonable calculation that seems to make sense should allow me to get started with a flow design that can meet the FD's concerns and provide a safe development. Considering this not a staffed site and no one is living on or near the place, this is not a life safety issue.
I'm open to suggestions. Thanks for any help you can think of!
LittleInch
Petroleum
Think you're going to need a loss prevention / fire protection specialist here to write a report saying what it is you need and why.
If you have no "code" to follow then you look at the risk, the impact of a fire, what you can do to prevent it from spreading too far and then design accordingly. If the FD won't give you any guidance then give them something that someone has signed off on and let them come back to you.
If you have nothing to protect other than the RVs and maybe a few personnel to escape, then in my opinion you only need a limited or maybe no fire water. It's all about the impact on people and property beyond your fenceline. Inside it's your problem / risk.
Drain fuel from the RVs or remove LPG tanks when stored, maybe need to limit the number parked and create a few "fire breaks" and maybe have 15mins of water supply to a few hydrants. Maybe need to not have any within say 10m of a fenceline so third party gets hurt if it all goes up in smoke.
They call it "burn down" in the hydrocarbon industry and then you take on the risk if it all goes up in smoke. Your insurance company may have something to say about that though so try them as well to see how they would react?
I mean look at all those aircraft parking lots in the desert? I don't notice too many hydrant systems there.
Without double posting, there is an NFPA forum on this site so maybe search there or ask a similar, but not identical question in that forum. Its; under "engineering codes and standards"
I did a bit of search and NFPA 13 and 88 come up, like here
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
If you have no "code" to follow then you look at the risk, the impact of a fire, what you can do to prevent it from spreading too far and then design accordingly. If the FD won't give you any guidance then give them something that someone has signed off on and let them come back to you.
If you have nothing to protect other than the RVs and maybe a few personnel to escape, then in my opinion you only need a limited or maybe no fire water. It's all about the impact on people and property beyond your fenceline. Inside it's your problem / risk.
Drain fuel from the RVs or remove LPG tanks when stored, maybe need to limit the number parked and create a few "fire breaks" and maybe have 15mins of water supply to a few hydrants. Maybe need to not have any within say 10m of a fenceline so third party gets hurt if it all goes up in smoke.
They call it "burn down" in the hydrocarbon industry and then you take on the risk if it all goes up in smoke. Your insurance company may have something to say about that though so try them as well to see how they would react?
I mean look at all those aircraft parking lots in the desert? I don't notice too many hydrant systems there.
Without double posting, there is an NFPA forum on this site so maybe search there or ask a similar, but not identical question in that forum. Its; under "engineering codes and standards"
I did a bit of search and NFPA 13 and 88 come up, like here
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
- Thread starter
- #5
Thanks for your thoughts. They are all very good and helpful. I agree that inside the fence it is the owner's problem and that the FD should only be concerned about personnel or the property located outside. Had not thought of a loss prevention specialist weighing in. That might be an approach to consider. Your mention of the insurance company makes me wonder if they have any suggestions. Hmmm. I'll check that rabbit hole!
I appreciate your helping out.
I appreciate your helping out.
LittleInch
Petroleum
If you want a first order pass, I would ask the FD how much water does one of their fire trucks need per minute?
Then assume two fire trucks operating for 15 minutes?
At least you have a start point.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
Then assume two fire trucks operating for 15 minutes?
At least you have a start point.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
I would have thought that it would be a storage building... parking garage structures are not designed as hazardous. They pose little hazard. Have you been in contact with FM Global to see it they have a take on it. The owner may require insurance in compliance with FM Global. Headroom is generally about 7' or slightly less. There is no access for a firetruck or something of that ilk.
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
Take a look at NFPA 1194, Standard for Recreational Vehicle Parks and Campgrounds. I've never looked at it myself, but I think this might be your starting point. I don't know if this standard covers storage or just place where people occupy the RVs.
You might also engage a fire protection engineer.
============
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill
You might also engage a fire protection engineer.
============
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill
LittleInch
Petroleum
Looks like it covers RV campgrounds etc where there are "occupants" and specifically doesn't cover other types of storage, but take a look.
If you go onto the nfpa site you can look at the docs online for free once you register, also for free. Just search for it in the top corner.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
If you go onto the nfpa site you can look at the docs online for free once you register, also for free. Just search for it in the top corner.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
- Thread starter
- #10
Thanks for the suggestions. I am working with the owners to see if we can get info from the insurance company. Not sure how far we will get on that front. I did look at NFPA 1194 and got a chuckle out of this note: "6.1.1 . . . Water supplies for fire protection purposes shall meet the requirements of the authority having jurisdiction." So even the NFPA thinks the local fire department should weigh in. Sigh.
I'll keep searching, and will likely do a "declaratory" submittal verses a "findings" submittal, i.e., I'll declare what is needed since and cannot say I found what is needed.
I appreciate everyone's time for helping out. A great group.
I'll keep searching, and will likely do a "declaratory" submittal verses a "findings" submittal, i.e., I'll declare what is needed since and cannot say I found what is needed.
I appreciate everyone's time for helping out. A great group.
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