Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility 20

[kenvlach]

IMHO: too many engineers don't bother with their responsibility to be good citizens. Instead of making an effort to be informed and participating in guiding the course of the nation, they are blasé and allow politicians (mostly lawyers, some corrupt) and special interest groups to shape our future.

Example: The ASCE calculated that $1.6 trillion is needed over a five-year period to bring the nation's infrastructure to a good condition. This would boost the economy, productivity and quality of life throughout the US. See

http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/index.cfm

But instead, a huge, non-productive spending is going into a black hole outside the US (Iraq), increasing the national debt and incurring long-term costs which will bring the total spent to possibly $2 Trillion including long-term health care to disabled vets. Perhaps even worse, the US is furnishing men & women, vehicles and buildings for terrorist live-fire targets. The righteous rage of Americans over 9/11 got conned into supporting "the worst foreign policy mistake" in the 200+ history of the US [conservative columnist Pat Buchanan].
For a total Iraq war cost estimate from Harvard & Columbia professors (including the 2001 Nobel laureate in economics), see
'Iraq Black Hole
The $2-Trillion War'

http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/050682.html

BYW, when allocating resources to a given project, the consequences of not funding alternatives must be considered. Indirect costs of the Iraq fiasco in my opinion will be even greater than referenced above.

Consider the consequences of having redeployed men, materiel and intelligence assets from Afghanistan: A resurgent Taliban, no justice for 9/11, record opium poppy crop, an expensive eradication program rather than a logical solution, a weakened government in (nuclear-capable) Pakistan...

Also, the US Navy has reduced surveillance and interdiction of cocaine traffickers in the Eastern Pacific off Latin America by 50% and by more than two-thirds in the Caribbean (and all but 5 of the DEA's Black Hawk helicopters assigned to the Caribbean have been taken away, with those 5 due to go by Oct). Consequences are a doubling of the cocaine supply to the US (Pentagon estimate) and drug/civil wars in Honduras, Guatemala, Mexico.
The impact is enormous.

The recent Minneapolis bridge collapse illustrates that politicians have been setting the wrong priorities for the US, while making us all pay. Remember the $231M 'bridge to nowhere' in Alaska? The $500M added to the Katrina & War funding bill in May 2006 to move a railroad ( rebuilt within 10 days of Katrina) & highway inland in order to build resorts & casinos along Mississippi's Gulf coast?

How has all this happened? In part, we as citizens haven't held politicians accountable. Being informed is the first step. Be skeptical about what they say – follow the money trails. I hope that in the future, engineers help steer the nation's course of action, rather than passively waiting for possible job assignments to trickle down.

P.S. If hesitant about getting involved or voicing an opinion, remember that w/o funding, engineering wouldn't be a profession, merely an academic exercise – and homework gets red-flagged!

 

[patdaly]

1.) We aren't the least bit shy about offering our opinions and being civic orientated, but sound bite politics trump logic in even otherwise intelligent beings.

2.) Perhaps it will be 2 Trillion down a " Black hole ", however what good would 2 Trillion do with Infrastructure improvements when there are Religious zealots who have made it their stated intention to destroy far more than our "revitalized" infrastructure?

Somehow I do not believe it is quite as simple of an equation as you propose.

 

[KENAT]

I'd guess if you work in defense, not all that money is going into a black hole/outside US! It was sure good for business where I used to work.

As to Lawyers in politics, I'm inclined to agree. That said I looked at a list of the professions of American presidents and a lot of them (I think more than half) were lawyers, including the likes of Lincoln.

patdaly, the link between the old Iraq regime and fundamentalist terrorists is a bit tenuous from what I've seen and heard. There were plenty of reasons to justify the invasion if you had a mind to, my biggest question was why 2003 and not some time in the previous 10+ years or wait till Afghanistan was more stable.


KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[patdaly]

Kenat:

Unfortunately discussions like these turn into ill advised political discourse due to the sound bite political rhetoric we are fed. I am with you in that the reasons for invasion were at best, poorly articulated. Removing my emotion from the mix though, I must say I see less justification for invading Afghanistan than Iraq though. The Taliban certainly never did us any harm.

In the end we will find ourselves forced to go into places we really do not want to and do things we really have no stomach for unless we are willing to live in either a police state or a state of constant fear, neither of which I am personally fond of.

Getting back to the civic part of this thread, how can we disseminate factual information to the American public when the majority of them have a 15 second attention span? Look at how the bridge collapse is being reported and tell me how we as Engineers can get factual evidence out in the face of reporting such as this?

 

[EddyC]

I'm sure that there are numerous good causes that deserve to be funded by the government. But there simply isn't enough money for all of them. The government therefore prioritizes. I think that its a hard sell to fund "preventive maintenance" on objects that are physically passive in nature, like infrastructure. Most folks will assume that such funding is a kickback from a politician to a contractor who was a political campaign supporter. The public has simply lost faith in the government to use taxpayer money constructively.

 

[dvd]

It will be interesting to see how long this thread lasts.

I don't feel particularly motivated to be an involved citizen because of the disrespect that I feel coming from the government. My opinion, when offered, isn't valued; the suggestions I make are contrary to the direction this country is heading. It is hard, and getting harder, to change the direction of the juggernaut of debt and hatred created by the politics of recent years.

 

[JAE]

Here's a chart showing the budget for MnDOT over the last several years:

This comes from the state's budget report, drafted last November. This clearly shows trendlines that confirm increased budgeting for MnDOT, and an annual budget of around $2 billion in 2006 and projected at the same level for the next several years. Except for 2003 when Minnesota had a spike in its Trunk Highway funds, that represents a steady funding level for the last few years.

 

[BJC]

"But instead, a huge, non-productive spending is going into a black hole outside the US (Iraq), "

You think it's a black hole. The money reappears mainly around Houston.

 

[dcasto]

Not all of the 2 trillon is a black hole, didn't some 3,000,000 people have jobs?

What about the $2 trillon spent on illegal aliens?

What about bilions lost by Enron? Where were the engineers saying NO?

Nobody wants to work anymore because its hard to say no and easier to say let them do what they want.

Why do the lower end of the bell curve engineers become in control and allow things to go bad?

Because we have decided that everyone is equal and one vote, as Rodney Dangerfield use to say, "I get no respect".

I enjoyed working in Mexico where I was called Engenero William, just like a Doctor was called Doctor William.

To many why's. I'm contemplating running for a school board position. I'd only last a term because I'd just say NO, to many times.

 

[prohammy]

Ken,

Interesting post (thread starter) and well worth a star.....

Have to admit that it kind of took me by surprise that a US engineer (actually to be fair I'm impressed that anyone US, European etc) would think this way and be open enough to post his thoughts.

Some of your post I believe is bang on the money. There is a very insiduous attitude (and not just among engineers) that the corporate principle of profit at any cost has now become the Westerm way of life and for some mantra. Our (and I mean globally) politicians have embraced this principle with open arms. Who can blame them for this... well me personally. I know I sound like a religious nut here, but I firmly believe that you have to live your life to a moral code (and not one you have invented for yourself) that has at its core respect for others, respect for your God. These two controls are basic building blocks, they allow interaction between people whereby there is respect and thus allow a society to live in that manner as well (Civic Responsibility)

Turning a blind eye to the direction that society has been led cannot mitigate a person's responsibilty, if anything it allows those who are pushing the boundaries of human behaviour a free rein. Those of us who are outraged by the actions of our leaders should shout about it, should complain and should try our damnest to change people's attitudes.



Kevin

“It is a mathematical fact that fifty percent of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class." ~Author Unknown

"If two wrongs don't make a right, try three." ~Author Unknown

 

[metengr]

The introductory paragraph in the OP is excellent. You had my interest until the rest that followed. Politics should not be discussed in this engineering forum. Everyone has an opinion about the war, so leave it at the door.

How has all this happened? In part, we as citizens haven't held politicians accountable. Being informed is the first step. Be skeptical about what they say – follow the money trails. I hope that in the future, engineers help steer the nation's course of action, rather than passively waiting for possible job assignments to trickle down.

We did have one Engineer that was in a position of power - President Carter. Review what happened during his term in office regarding infrastructure improvements. Do I need to say more?

Like any great country, the US could be on a downcyle for some time to become because of a lack of interest in technical education, lack of a family unit, dealing with a global economy..... Engineers are a small minority in the US when it comes to voting. I vote my conscience and sleep well at night, I don't worry about what I can't control.

 

[HgTX]

don't forget Hoover...

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[KENAT]

But he didn't do a dam thing for us

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[kontiki99]

Cool, I love rant threads!

Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex because War is a very profitable business.

He was afraid that the profitable nature of war would wind up being a too powerful influence over government policy.

Terrorists attempting to bring about the economic down fall of the US by destroying the WTC had it sort of backwards.

If you go to the CDC websites you can find statistics that show you 500, 000 Americans die from heart disease every year, 3,000 or so Americans were killed in the WTC.

Bin Laden would have been better off taking the funds he raised and starting a fast food chain.

Sadly, there is probably no easy way to avoid the massive blood bath that's coming over there. In the end it will be interesting to see who's Iraqi citizen body count is higher. Saddam's or George's.

Anarchy didn't turn out to be a step closer to Democracy. Anarchy was a fairly predictable outcome.

 

[moltenmetal]

Commonsense dictates that there's a certain point beyond which repair is no longer sensible- re-building is required.

Our parents and grandparents and great-grandparents spent money building vast amounts of infrastructure which has now reached the end of its useful life. And since taxes are not dedicated to specific purposes, governments grease the wheels that squeak loudest. Bridges fall

So what we need to do is to stop funding these projects out of general tax revenue: we need to do it by means of user fees. Road tolls. Dedicated fuels surtaxes. Water and sewer use charges etc.

Just rebuilding the existing network of sewers and watermains in major urban centres over 100 years old will be crushingly expensive.

As to the Iraq thing: it's all a result of US foreign policy mistakes over the past fifty years- all in an attempt to keep the cheap oil flowing. You can't properly understand what's happened and what is currently happening in Iraq and Afghanistan without looking at the American support for the Shah of Iran etc. Another reason to fix the oil addiction pronto by whatever means are possible.

 

[PSE]

kontiki99,

I am not sure that the way the US tends to conduct war is very profitable. Perhaps for the manufacturers of weapons. The US spends its wealth to create weapons systems, expends them on the destruction of a countries infrastructure, and then spends more of its wealth rebuilding the infrastructure it just destroyed and then eventually leaves. Ever watch the film "The Mouse that Roared"?

In my view, the current issue is conducting a physical war against an idea. The idea, being however flawed, is that by "terrorizing" a populace, you will get a government to do what you want. What eventually happened in Afghanistan and Iraq appears to be that the US hoped that by holding a government responsible for the actions of terrorist groups within it's country would have a dampening effect on their capabilities. The added "bonus" would be that a new government might be friendlier to the US as well. I think this remains to be seen.

Off hand, I do not see the cultural "value" systems of western civilizations taking root within the middle east. Certainly not by force. The wealth expended, could likely have done much more good if applied to different purposes.

In my view, Afghanistan was a win even without Bin-Laden being captured. The original purpose in Iraq was weapons of mass destruction potentially getting into terrorist hands. These were not found and the mission appeared to "change" to taking Saddam Hussein out of power. That did happen. The question is how long to stay and pick up the pieces without the chance of knowing the outcome. The US populace wants to bring the troops home. They are still in harms way. At the same time, we have troops in european bases over 60 years since the end of WW 2 and for 50+ years in Korea. The populace does not complain. I am not an isolationist by any stretch, just showing a potential comparison.

I have probably rambled enough.

Regards,

 

[epoisses]

Re engineering involvement in political decision-making... well, join your favorite policitical party or start your own, run for senator, run for president! But don't forget that engineering is engineering and politics is politics, you just can't optimise your country's internal and foreign politics like you can optimise a car suspension or a pygas hydrofiner while the ultimate power is to people with an attention span of 15 seconds.

Re Iraq... well I guess it seemed like a good idea to the people in charge at the time based on the information they thought they had. Let's focus on the future. I may sound very un-French but I'm amazed how Europe and also the other Middle Eastern countries stand back and let the US plod on in Iraq. Heck Iraq is so much closer to Europe than it is to the US, if you count Turkey as European it's even a neighboring country. Iraq (together with Afghanistan) is the core of the problem that I expect will terrorise the rest of the world throughout the rest of the 21st century.

 

[RDK]

The infrastructure deficit was a topic in ENR when I started 30+ years ago.

The collapse of 35W last week is simply one of many failures, large and small that will occur until this issue is addressed.

We as engineers look at problems and can usually come up with either the optimum solution or at least a practical one that will work over the planning horizon.

Politicians on the other hand live and die by sound bites and pools. Engineers would charge either through taxes or as user fees enough to pay for the repairs to the infrastructure, politicians would rather spend borrowed money on a new bridge and let the existing ones rot as there is no votes in raising taxes or in maintenance.

I once got involved in a national lobbing effort. I met most of the high level politicians of the day, both provincially and nationally (in Canada) and every one of them had already made up their minds without letting the facts bother them. They all made statements strictly in line with their party’s basic ideology with only one exception. He was a mechanical engineer by training.

You want to get involved? As advised above, run for office, join your political party but be prepared for the illogic of political life.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[HgTX]

Even as the governor of Minnesota is reversing his position on a statewide gas tax for infrastructure improvement (he's no longer ridiculing the idea), GWB has come out against one on the national level. The responsible-sounding soundbite is "Congress needs to re-evaluate their spending priorities", but what that translates into is "go find that money somewhere else; not my problem".

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[civilperson]

Washington did engineering as a British officer.