Engineering Proposal Estimation

[RedBauer]

When creating proposals for projects, we've typically used $1500 per sheet as a cross check on our prices. Does anyone use anything different? We use standard 24x36 sheets. Thanks.

 

[cvg]

sheet of what? it does make a difference what it is you are designing and showing on your "sheet" $1500 seems a bit low, what does that include?

 

[bimr]

Unless you are selling drawings at a 1" = 2' scale, that rul of thumb will probably not work out for you in the long run. I agree with cvg that you are on the low side.

 

[msquared48]

Sorry guys, but in today's market, to be competitive, that figure is about right to slightly high, not low. In 2007, I would have said low too.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[bimr]

Wasn't that a dire straits tune? Plans for nothing and specs. for free.

A day of topo costs about $2K alone.

I think the poster should describe what he is furnishing.

 

[msquared48]

Nope. Just the way it is where I am if you want any work.

It is getting better, very slowly. I have not held my breath though.

I just did an 8 sheet Civil/Storm retail job for 6K. I would have charged double that three years ago, but now, they just walk away.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[RedBauer]

The proposal referenced is for a wastewater collection system for a trailer park that discharges to an on site mound. Roughly 80 trailers (or should I say mobile homes?) and we'll need to detail collection lines, septic tanks, mound, etc.

Our topo is lower than $2k, maybe even closer to $1k for a day. Maybe prices are different in other areas of the country, sorta like why NYC is over inflated?

Thanks for the inputs.

 

[gbam]

RedBauer - When we estimate the fee for any given project, we break each task down by hours of design and drafting. We then include the duplication costs as a direct expense. I have seen so many firms (including my past firm) get bit on the rule of thumb approach especially in the private development realm. For instance, in my past life our development engineers proposed on a residential project and gave my group $5K to design and analyze the drainage for the site. The site was over 200 acres with 7 retention basins and one major detension basin. Needless to say our design and analysis exceeded the fee for this task by 400%. Good luck!

 

[bimr]

Depends on what you are paying, but you are right, the topo cost for two $20 per hour employess is closer to $1K per day.

That is a very difficult application on which to try to survive. The customers have little funds and you still need to furnish a quality product.

What you have to do on a project like this is to minimize what you are furnishing. An old boss used to always say "cut the suit to fit".

Do you have to apply for permits as well?

At times you have to learn to walk away from projects because they are not profitable. When you give away your services, you will never recover the losses.

 

[RedBauer]

Agreed. We do break down a proposal by tasks and assign hours accordingly. As a cross check, we like to use a cost per sheet. If our two numbers are close then we're good to go. If not then we may reconsider depending on the job type. However, this $1500 was obtained from my boss years ago.

 

[brandonbw]

For our grading plans we try to get in the $2k per page range. Which a typical 2 page decently complicated hillside grading plan being about $3600-$4000 depending on how much work is involved.

Of course we lose some projects because some people around here are willing to basically charge $10/hr for their plans which seems a bit crazy to me.

I have even seen someone bid out a pretty large hospital set of plans with all the required Civil plans and reports for under $10k. I can't imagine how awful that job will turn out.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil and Structural Engineering

http://bwengr.com

 

[swearingen]

Interesting to see other industry's charges. In the petro-chem civil/structural arena, we're between $4k and $7k per sheet, depending on complexity...


-5^2 = -25 ;-)

http://www.eng-tips.com/supportus.cfm

 

[beej67]

In Georgia you can't even do an erosion control plan in less than 8 sheets. A little postage stamp lot is 12 to 15 sheets easy. I've seen companies I work with go as low as $500/sheet (if we're using that estimation method) to get work.

Some areas of the country were a lot more insulated from the crash than others, and some engineering disciplines were a lot more insulated as well.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[brandonbw]

beej67: What in the world? Out here in Southern California an erosion control plan can be done in 1-2 sheets depending on the city/county.

What scale is that and what is being shown? We basically show sand bags around the property and sand bags around the drains so they don't clog. Or on a rough grading plan sandbags protecting slopes and driveways with a wash off area for the trucks. Trying to comprehend why you have so many sheets.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil and Structural Engineering

http://bwengr.com

 

[civilman72]

Red - you do it the right way. It's good to run an estimate by task and man hours, then check it on a per sheet basis.

I think $1,500 is a fair check - we use any where from $1,200 - $2,000. If your creating 20 road p&p sheets all at the same scale, it should be less per sheet than say 20 sheets of subdivision plans (i.e. site plans, grading plans, pond plans, road plans, utility plans, erosion control plans, etc.). Also, generally speaking, the more sheets, the less it costs per sheet.

 

[beej67]

beej67: What in the world? Out here in Southern California an erosion control plan can be done in 1-2 sheets depending on the city/county.

Does it even rain in Southern California? Can't you guys just put a note that says "build it quick before it rains" on the cover? Hehe.

Different soils and different rain make for different types of engineering problems. I do engineering all across the south east, and Georgia's got the most stringent erosion control specs of anywhere down here, because of the combination of relatively high rainfall from Gulf southerlies and our world famous Georgia Red Clay.

I don't know much about the west coast, but I'd guess your TMDLs for clean water act compliance are typically for nitrogen or phosphorous, due to agricultural runoff, right? Ours are all TSS, in part due to a combination of rapid expansion of the Metro Atlanta area changing flow regimes in streams inducing bed and bank resuspension, but mostly due to construction site runoff. Which has caused the state to get really nasty about the level of detail on erosion plans.

All erosion plans out here for the last half a decade plus have been "three phase" plans, where you have to show the measures put out during demo, the measures out during grading, and the measures out during final stabilization and landscaping. You have to spell out the transition from one to the next, you have to spec which sorts of grass to seed at which times of the year, and you have to include a gant chart styled construction schedule on your plan sheets. Then each BMP has calculations to it you have to show on the plans, including basins and hydrology if it's a sediment pond, and then there's detail sheets. Details, notes, calcs, and 3 phases alone puts you at a minimum of 6 to 7 sheets for the smallest projects. Multiple views for larger projects get you into the 10 to 15 range.

That's for anything over an acre, and if the municipality busts your balls on it then it can apply to stuff below an acre too. Contrast that to Florida, where all you really have to do is show some hay bales at your perimeter and they don't care past that, because the soil is sand and doesn't suspend in the water column.

But fees haven't gone up to compensate, really, because developers who span state lines don't see why they should pay extra, and civils don't want to lose the work in the economy. Clearly I should move out west.

One interesting thing about site hydrology and erosion control, is how amazingly different it is wherever you go.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com