Digital Seal and Signature

[LOTE]

I know this topic has been discussed before, but I would like to see if the opinions have changed in recent years. What is your practice for digitally sealing documents?

For my particular case, I had been applying a photocopy of my seal with signature to every page, then additionally applying a digital signature to the document using 3rd party verification (Identrust). Even though I set the document security to allow for markups and stamps, I have been getting big push back from the owner/AHJ (DOTs in most cases). They either do not want any security applied to the drawings, or they don't want any visual digital signature (they only want to see the photocopy of the seal). This of course does not follow the guidance given by the engineering board, which is state law in some cases.

I am considering just having a photocopy of my seal with a signature but no date, then applying just the date (no other text) with the digital signature tool to the cover page. However, I foresee getting push back if I do not apply my seal and date on every sheet of a drawing set. Alternatively, I am considering a disclaimer along the lines of "this document is void unless verifiable digital signature is present", then saving a version with the digital signature applied just for our records.

I would love to know your all's thoughts.

 

[skeletron]

Okay, so my association indicates that:

1. The document is converted to PDF/A
2. The image of the seal with digital certification is applied
3. The document is locked via the software program (Notarius)

I follow this procedure but there is now a 70-30 chance whether it comes back to me with the "we can't apply our stamp to the drawing" response from the AHJ. To allow for other stamps to be applied to the drawing, I have discovered that you don't do #1 and #3. Allowing for additional stamping is one of the more annoying things with digital seals because the document isn't "locked" (i.e. it can be modified) and potentially someone could lift the image of the seal. But, I guess that would exist regardless. The date on my seal crosses over it to limit this a bit. And, as you mentioned, the digital certification key (i.e. metadata of the image) is truly the most important feature. I recently came across a scanned wet-sealed shop drawing where the wet seal was falsified: name existed but did not match the license number.

 

[EngDM]

Okay, so my association indicates that:

1. The document is converted to PDF/A
2. The image of the seal with digital certification is applied
3. The document is locked via the software program (Notarius)

I follow this procedure but there is now a 70-30 chance whether it comes back to me with the "we can't apply our stamp to the drawing" response from the AHJ. To allow for other stamps to be applied to the drawing, I have discovered that you don't do #1 and #3. Allowing for additional stamping is one of the more annoying things with digital seals because the document isn't "locked" (i.e. it can be modified) and potentially someone could lift the image of the seal. But, I guess that would exist regardless. The date on my seal crosses over it to limit this a bit. And, as you mentioned, the digital certification key (i.e. metadata of the image) is truly the most important feature. I recently came across a scanned wet-sealed shop drawing where the wet seal was falsified: name existed but did not match the license number.

Could you flatten your stamp into the page after applying digital signature and certification?

 

[BridgeSmith]

Could you flatten your stamp into the page after applying digital signature and certification?

For designs, which are typically an Excel file, I print to .pdf, apply my stamp with signature, add the date, and then print that to a .pdf. That makes the stamp and date not editable components.

 

[Craig_H]

Like Skeletron, I am bound by the strict requirements of APEGA / EGBC (Alberta and BC Provincial Regulators), who are very strict in how this is supposed to be done. I haven't gotten that much push back from AHJs though. I suspect mine have discovered that you can still print the secured PDF/A to a normal PDF file, then go to town with markups and stamping. I have had some awkward instances when a full design team is compiling bid packages, specification books, etc. where we all need to stamp, then all sign after the stamps are applied, etc. That can get messy if not well coordinated.

To be completely frank, I am not sure that I understand the whole security concern. Wet-stamped, hand-drawn drawings could be doctored by a skilled hand holding a pencil, and yet we never had tight security around those. Now that a computer is involved, all of a sudden we need "security", and we all know full well that if someone really has the means to hire a very intelligent hacker, that these can be bypassed. It's all just electrons and charges on silicon, and that can all be edited.

 

[XR250]

To be completely frank, I am not sure that I understand the whole security concern. Wet-stamped, hand-drawn drawings could be doctored by a skilled hand holding a pencil, and yet we never had tight security around those. Now that a computer is involved, all of a sudden we need "security", and we all know full well that if someone really has the means to hire a very intelligent hacker, that these can be bypassed. It's all just electrons and charges on silicon, and that can all be edited.

Exactly. The whole process is dumb. I think we need to follow the money. My guess is the 3rd party verification folks petitioned the AHJ's to adopt these rules. Maybe they held a free seminar.

 

[gte447f]

For designs, which are typically an Excel file, I print to .pdf, apply my stamp with signature, add the date, and then print that to a .pdf. That makes the stamp and date not editable components.

Yes, but this doesn't meet the requirements of many state boards for a secure digital signature.

I have had the exact same problem as @LOTE with AHJ's basically refusing to accept a pdf with a compliant digital signature because they couldn't put their silly stamp on the drawings. As if their stamp means much of anything.

 

[271828]

...
To be completely frank, I am not sure that I understand the whole security concern. Wet-stamped, hand-drawn drawings could be doctored by a skilled hand holding a pencil, ...

When I read this, it reminded me of Better Call Saul when Jimmy doctored his brother's legal paperwork.

I know that was totally off-topic and not helpful to the current conversation. LOL

 

[EngDM]

Exactly. The whole process is dumb. I think we need to follow the money. My guess is the 3rd party verification folks petitioned the AHJ's to adopt these rules. Maybe they held a free seminar.

Can I hold a free seminar explaining by Manitoba does not require Seismic design and have them adopt this? I should try this... maybe I will buy everyone Applebees.

I agree that this is probably what happened, as our AHJ even recommended a program to use...