Construction without a permit (ethical dilemma) 2

[jeffandmike]

I am employed for a civil engineering firm that performed the engineering design for a small structure. We are working for an architect that did the architectural design of the structure.

We were just informed by the architect that the contractor has not obtained any permits on work performed thus far (nearly completed under the original scope). I do not know if the owner is aware of this or not. The architect is requesting engineering from us for another addition to the project.

Should we notify the owner in writing that it has come to our attention that the contractor may not have secured the proper permits . . .etc., etc., etc? Should we refuse to do the additional engineering? Should we notify the building department? Should we perform the additional engineering and not worry about it? It is the owner's responsibility, after all, to secure all necessary permits.

We have only worked for this architect one time before, so they are not necessarily an "A" client (i.e. any lost work or burned bridges would not be the end of the world).

Keep in mind, the 2004 "Board Rules" Code of Professional Conduct states, "A licensee shall not knowlingly permit the publication or use of his or her data, reports, plans, or other professional documents for unlawful purposes."

I am interested to hear what everyone thinks. Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

[jheidt2543]

Here are my thoughts:

1. First of all I would think the Owner and Architect would require a copy of the building permit to be sent to them. I've seen this requirement in some specs. and while working for a contractor, I always made it a practice to send a copy of the permit to the Owner and Architect.

2. Nothing gets a building inspector's hackles up faster than someone trying to pull a fast one. I never understood the guys that do this stuff, what PO the inspector? You have to satify him throughout the entire job, this stuff just makes it worse.

3. Now that you know about the situation, you have to do something. I would first notify your Architect and the Contractor that you are aware that the permit was not taken out. I would tell them that if you don't recieve a copy of the permit within X days, you will have to notify the building department. That way you let the contractor try to patch things up, but if he doesn't you can still blow the whistle. There is no sense in shutting the job down, if you can convince the Contradtor to do the right thing. It is always possible that they forgot to apply for it???

 

[MintJulep]

What is the architect doing beyond notifying you? I'm sure that they have a very similar code of professional conduct.

If you are even considering the follow-on job with the architect put a provision in the contract that makes the architect responsible for your work being used in a lawful manner.

 

[RDK]

First thing I would do is find out for sure if this is true. The contractor may have the permit and the architect may be mistaken or misinformed. You can simply ask the contractor for a copy of the permit for your files or ask the authority having jurisdiction if a permit is in place.

If the permits are in place then all I would do is inform the architect that he was mistaken.

If the permits are not in place then you have an ethical obligation to inform the appropriate authorities of your knowledge of someone breaking the law. You also have an obligation not to further participate in this project until all permits are in place. You can continue to do design work, just not release it to the contractor for inclusion in an un-permitted project.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[thebigdog]

I agree by and large with RDK. The only thing I would do differently is to notify the owner that you are aware that no permit has been obtained and that you have an ethical (if not legal) obligation to notify the appropriate authorities -- unless he would prefer to take care of the situation himself.

 

[JPatten]

Are you sure it's the contractors responsibility to get the permits? Sometimes the Owner does this. Just depends on how the contracts were written.

 

[ctmtwilliams]

I know this is an old thread, but I was browsing the Forum and had to add my 0.02. I disagree with RDK. The fact that a permit was not taken out for the project is not your concern. You were hired to do the design, not the construction management (which appears to be RDK’s profession). Ethically, the work you conducted was done in a professional manor and that is all you need to be concerned with, and that is all you are liable for. After your work product is given to the client, how your client handles what follows is up to them. What if the project never gets past the design stage? If the client sits on your work product for 15 years and then goes ahead and starts the project, it still is no concern of yours as you did you did the work to the standards that existed at the time. It would be upon the client to come back to you to have the product updated to current standards.

 

[BigH]

ctmtwilliams - but the original post said that the architect wanted additional input - this is during construction - as an addition to the project.
To continue - I don't see how the designer can provide any further input. You also, as a professional engineer, have an obligation to the public. Without a permit, there might be some liability as to not protecting the public; this is why I would believe that you have the obligation to bring this to the attention of the client and authorities -[orange]put it on record[/orange]. They can then investigate; if found to be no problem, no skin off anyone's back; if found to be in contravention of legalities, then the chips should fall.

 

[ctmtwilliams]

-BIGH- you are right I did miss that point. The point I was trying to make was regarding ethics and work products. Your work product as a professional design engineer should stand-alone (protecting the public) with or without any plan check or permits from some local agency. I certainly don’t see the lack of a permit as being a “protecting the public” issue as has been referred to. If the work is done to the specifications of your work product, then you have done all of the public protection expected of you.

Ethically, the design specifications stand-alone as a completed work product. Legal advice should really be left up to the lawyers. Now, if your morally doesn’t allow you to stick within the bounds of what you are contracted to do, that is up to you, you can always refuse to do any additional work on the project.

It would be interesting to hear what happened with the project and how it was delt with.

 

[DRC1]

It has been my experience that no good deed goes unpunished. This could be a huge showdown and I would want no part of it. I would have told the architect that you have no problem working for him in general, but you both may have some liability if you keep participating in this project. But unless I had direct knowledge of the lack of permits, I wouldn't take the point on the issues. The self proclaimed hero business isn't what it is cracked up to be.

 

[BigH]

DRC1 - tis true what you speaketh! Also good advice for other's projects. One reason I try not to look into excavations as I walk or drive by - if I see a site coming up - I go to the other side. If I see something wrong, I have to report it for consideration by those on the project. Sort of like the army; don't ask - don't tell (don't see - can't say).

 

[jheidt2543]

Most codes have a requirement that the building officials be notified at certain stages of construction. If construction is going on without a permit, you can bet that the building officials are not going to be notified for those required, periodic inspections. Once you KNOW they are using your design without satisfying code requirements, you MUST do something!

There are a lot of somethings that can be done before notifying the building department directly and potentially damaging a client relationship. But, IMHO, once you know of the violation, you are bound by your professional responsibilities to take some positive action.

You could say, "ignorance is bliss" in some cases.