Client insisting that the EOR should design and detail handrails 1

[GalileoG]

This is a new one for me. I have never had a client request and insist on this before. In my experience, handrails/posts/anchorage design has always been done by the misc. metals designer - and they stamp their drawings. Client's rationale is that handrails are a safety issue and as such should be designed by the EOR. Maybe I'll be asked to design OWSJ, hollowcore, steel stringers next...
How would you go about this...

 

[haynewp]

Tell him I need to be paid to do it and I would well cover my time.

 

[Teguci]

Design, yes that can be appropriate. Detail, usually a bad idea. Its gonna cost the client twice as much. First, he's gonna pay you more for your detailing. Second, the fabricator will adjust his proposal cost up for non-standard detailing and then will probably provide a system detailed to his liking with his engineer's stamp anyhow. Client = lose-lose.

 

[BUGGAR]

What does your contract with the client say? Are there defined limits to what you will do?

 

[msquared48]

I have dad to design handrail attachments before, but the overall concept was the Architect's.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[JAE]

AISC's Code of Standard Practice doesn't classify handrails as "Structural Steel" (see section 2.2 here:

http://www.aisc.org/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=25256)

Your participation could also be limited by your specific contract (scope of services).


Check out Eng-Tips Forum's Policies here:
faq731-376

 

[Ron]

GalileoG....as I'm sure you know, this is normally a delegated engineering function. Here are a few points you can use to discuss with your client:

1. The EOR takes overall responsibility of the design of the project. In this he/she defines criteria for certain subsets of the job (stairs and rails, structural steel, miscellaneous metals, light gage steel framing, aluminum/steel canopies, etc.) to those who are better equipped to get the construction details correct for their specialty. All of these are specialized engineering applications. The EOR then transmits the design criteria to the specialty engineer.

2. The specialty engineer is one who either does this routinely in his/her practice or is captive to the fabricator. In either case, he/she has direct control over the produced plans/calculations/specs, etc, thus the statutory responsibility of responsible charge is met. The EOR cannot do this for several reasons:

a. He/She does not know in the initial design which subcontractor will be selected and where that subcontractor might be located. I've done delegated design work in Florida for installation in Michigan (Yes, I'm licensed in both states!​

.

b. The EOR would have no direct control over anything the fabricator might do and would spend a lot of extra time trying to detail items that the fabricator already has as standard details.
​

3. The specialty engineer is obligated to the EOR to meet the design intent but has the latitude to design the system within the criteria outlined by the EOR. The specialty engineer must then submit to the EOR, adequate information that allows the EOR to review the submittal in accordance with the design intent.

Is your client an Engineer? They should not be dictating your engineering practice and decisions unless they want to take the responsibility for them. If they are non-engineers, you might be obligated to write a letter to your engineering board (depending on where you're located), letting them know that your engineering decisions are being overruled by a "lay authority".

 

[haynewp]

Are you being asked to design and show representative details for what you expect to be further developed and submitted for your review or provide fabrication level details yourself?

 

[andriver]

Question:

My whole experience is in offshore structures, and for the first time I am on an industrial job. For offshore structures, made of all steel, 100% of the engineering was done by one firm. Drawings were all detailed by one firm. I'm talking everything from girders, to handrails, connection details etc.

On this industrial job, one firm did the "structural" design, and I was surprised that an entirely different firm did the connection design. I am told this is standard. So what is the usual scope you all perform? I feel like most of the work is in the details, and it sounds nice to just focus on the structural members.

Why wouldn't the structural firm want to increase their scope to include connection design, handrail etc?

 

[CANPRO]

andriver, in my area of practice (Eastern Canada) it is standard for the connections to be delegated. Typically the steel fabricator would retain an engineer to design the connections. I do a lot of work for fabricators designing their connections. I also design some structures, and would usually only specifically design a connection if it is unusual or critical to the behavior of the rest of the structure (typically in renovations or smaller jobs).

I think the main reason behind the splitting the connections from the main structure is efficiency and cost (as mentioned in posts above). If you give fabricators the general criteria (design loads) they can determine which connections best suit their means and methods of fabricating and erecting the structure (welded vs bolted, type of moment connection etc...). This way when you put a set of drawings out to bid you can get the most competitive bid from each fabricator instead of restricting them to a set of details they are not familiar or comfortable with.

 

[andriver]

CANPRO,

that makes a lot of sense! Thanks!

 

[MotorCity]

On our industrial projects, we always use our standard handrail/guardrail details that we have verified with calculations. For most industrial projects, our details are ok unless the client has a different standard that they like to use. If that's the case we check their standard against the governing code and with calculations.

For other projects that are architecturally driven (schools, hospitals, etc) our typical practice is that the handrails will be a delegated design item. They usually have some fancy shape, material, or architectural feature that does not match our typical details. Of course, we would design it if asked (and for an additional fee if it was not included in our scope)

 

[GalileoG]

Thank you all for the great discussion!