Choosing Graduate Schools 4

[grneggsnham]

Just received my acceptance letters from stanford, berkeley and UC Irvine's master of envioronmental engineering science. Unfortunately Stanford and berkeely did not offer me any finanical aid for the masters program. UC Irvine on the other hand has given me a fullride for the masters program. I'm having a difficult time choosing what school I should go for. Since I'm not pursuing my PhD, would it matter what school I went to for my masters? Does anyone know how much more employers are more likely to pay an stanford or berkeley graduate compared to other schools like UC Irvine? Is it worth it to pay $33,000 of tution a year at stanford, even though their environmental engineering program is ranked number one in the nation? Berkeley's tuition is considerable cheaper and they are ranked number 2 in the nation, right now, I'm leaning towards this institution.
Also, since I did not obtain my undergrad in engineering but in environmental science, does anyone know if I will be allowed to take my EITs after I finish my master's in environmental engineering?

 

[cvg]

since you do not have an engineering degree you may not be eligible for the FE or for the PE exam. I'm not sure your masters in Engineering Science will count the same as an ABET acredited engineering degree. You should check with the board and/or with the school. I think UCI is a well respected school (in Southern California at least) and since you would get a full ride, it might make more sense to go there.

http://www.dca.ca.gov/pels/

http://www.ncees.org/exams/fundamentals/

 

[bimr]

Personal opinion is that it would not matter much if you went to any of the top 5 schools. However, I would recommend Berkeley as it is less expensive and to skip UC Irvine. Don't see that you would get a premium for having attended Stanford. It would be more like if two applicants were vying for the same job, and all things being equal, the degree from Stanford may tip the scale.

The difference between schools that I have seen is that the recruiters will only go to the top schools for the top students, but will not go to the minors like UC Irvine. Somewhat similiar to the NFL draft. It is hard to get noticed at the small schools. The recruiters don't go there.

You will be able to take the EIT after you have the Master's.

 

[cvg]

Say you pay $40,000 for tuition at Berkeley. Along with your other student loans, you will be paying that off for probably 10-years. In that same period, with a full ride scholarship, you could be saving an extra $40,000 in the bank or your 401K, even with a "second rate" degree. Since the pay differential would be minor at best, it seems like it would be difficult to make the tuition cost pay off. I work for a firm that would probably be on your list of potential employers and I'm not aware of a significant effort that we make to send recruiters to the top 5 schools to look for masters students. There is enough competition out there that we get plenty of good applications for our open positions without hiring a recruiter. And unless you had your PhD, I would not hesitate to hire a graduate of a state school with a masters degree provided they were able to present themselves well in an interview. Depending on where you want to work, a state school might be a preferential way to go. In fact, in some regions there may be a bit of reverse discrimination taking place where state school grads might get preferentially hired over say a Berkeley grad...

 

[bimr]

Berkeley's graduate program in civil engineering was ranked #1 for the seventh year in a row by U.S. News and World Report. Berkeley's undergraduate program (not stanford's) is ranked #1 in the nation for 2008.


Here is a guideline for being able to qualify for the PE exam:

You must have an ABET-accredited undergraduate degree to enter the Masters of Engineering Program. Students without an ABET-accredited undergraduate degree can obtain the MS degree. Those students who wish to obtain the MS degree in Civil Engineering or Environmental Engineering, must meet specific ABET requirements through a combination of their BS and MS degrees.

Check with the State Board of Licensing to confirm.

ABET does not accredit postgraduate programs.

ABET accredits graduate programs within applied science and engineering only. However, within engineering, institutions are restricted to accrediting only one program per discipline per level. Because graduation from an undergraduate program is generally considered adequate preparation for entry into the engineering profession, most institutions choose to accredit undergraduate programs only.

 

[bimr]

The point being that firms have limited budgets for recruiting.

Assume that you have a limited budget at your company for campus recruiting and the boss tells you that you can only recruit at one school. You alma mater is distant so you can't go there.

You have a choice between recruiting at Berkeley or UC Irvine. Where would you go?

I agree with CVG's point that you are not going to get much of a premium for going to a top school. However, you will have the first shot at getting your foot in the door.

 

[francesca]

My experience with going to a "name brand" school for graduate studies did not work out well. I applied for civil and environmental with the thinking that I'd like to do either transportation or hydrology. For personal reasons I was not able to complete registration myself and the department registered for me - my classes were Environmental Assessments, Water Chemistry and Thermodynamics - none of which I was interested in! It turned out that the presiding head of department was only interested in the fate and transport of contaminants through porous media, and any faculty without tenure or funding in such projects were slowly but surely being forced to change over or move on.

... so I switched to Transportation, only to find that the entire catalog of transportation courses offered were "swing" classes; in practice this meant me sitting in a class of seniors "learning" stuff I've known for ages due to 5 years of work experience in transportation before going to grad school.

The moral of the sad story is that it is not important what the school name is, it's what research actually goes on there and how it fits in with your aspirations. You are far more likely to be judged on the number and calibre of the publications you acquire out of your masters research than the name of the school you did it at, but really the most valuable and telling part of the education will be what you learned, and how it fits in with your career aspirations. If you learn a lot about what you want to know, that will best place you for success.

 

[HgTX]

Francesca has a good point--you should to look at the particular faculty and what their focus is.

That said, I'd strike Stanford; any value they might have over Berkeley isn't worth a significant increase in price.

If it were me making the decision for myself, I'd strike any place that didn't offer me funding(*). I don't believe in paying for grad school.

Hg

(*) Which, in 1997, was Berkeley. They told me in my phone interview that they didn't think someone from a lowly state school, 4.0 GPA notwithstanding, would do well at "Cal Berkeley". But I digress.

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[cvg]

My boss / office manager is a graduate of Univ. of Arizona (masters). I would hazard a guess that another UofA or ASU graduate would get his foot in the door before anyone from Berkley...

 

[CivEnvEng98]

Some misconceptions regarding what programs can and cannot recieve ABET accreditation need to be clarified.

First, ABET does have an option for schools to accredit post graduate programs, though very few schools choose to do so since ABET only accredits either the graduate or postgraduate programs. So 99%+ of the schools in the USA go with the graudate accredidation, since that obviously makes the most economic sense.

The following link lists all accredited engineering programs in the USA....there are MANY masters programs that are ABET accredited....funny thing the very 1st program listed is the Air Force Institute of Technology and the ONLY ABET accredited program they have is an MS in Environmental Engineering and Science!!

http://www.abet.org/schoolareaeac.asp#C

Basic info on ABET and how they work.

http://www.abet.org/the_basics.shtml

"ABET accredits postsecondary degree-granting programs housed within regionally accredited institutions. ABET accredits programs only, not degrees, departments, colleges, or institutions."


Also:

As far as being able to sit for PE exams go, it's a state specific issue. For instance, getting an MS in Env/Civil Engineering plus a BS in a non engineering would NOT get you into the PE exam in California until you have 3 years of experience, sit for the EIT, pass it, then get another 6 years of experience. No experience credits are given to the BS or MS degrees if they are not ABET accredited. All experience must be gained while under a Cali licensed engineer. Do your own research I may be wrong about the specifics, but I did not see an easy route for you to follow in Cali:

http://www.dca.ca.gov/pels/a_faq-eng.pdf

There are other states such as Florida that will evaluate your MS in engineering (which must have the corresponding BS degree ABET Accredited) plus your BS in science as a whole to see if you can "articulate" the ABET requirements for the corresponding BS in engineering.

 

[CivEnvEng98]

Edit previous post about the Air Force Institute:

All their ABET accredited programs are MS degrees which includes Environmental.

Sorry, I didn't write that correctly

 

[grneggsnham]

thanks for all the helpful responses! Going up to Stanford and Cal today to check out both schools, will update when I return.

 

[CivEnvEng98]

One last thing, ABET accredits more than just engineering and applied sciences:

Engineering
Applied Sciences
Computing
Technology

 

[greenone]

I think the issue of who recruits at the school is one that can be resolved by asking the respective departments. Ask the dean right out what firms regularly hire from their grads, and see if any of those firms interest you.
Way back, I worked for UPS, and they actually preferred 2nd tier schools for recruiting purposes-felt those students would match the UPS culture more than MIT grads.

 

[bimr]

A misconception stated regarding the need for 6 years experience to be able to sit for the PE needs to be clarified.


"(2) Post-Graduate Education
The Board may give a maximum of one year credit as qualifying experience for satisfactorily completed graduate work in an ABET-approved curriculum. No credit will be given for foreign graduate work or graduate work done in any non-ABET approved curriculum. Completed post-graduate work is work for which a degree has been received.

Effective January 1, 2007, applicants who possess a board-approved postgraduate degree in engineering will receive 5 years of experience credit toward the 6-year experience requirement regardless of the undergraduate degree. A board-approved postgraduate degree is one 5 where either the undergraduate or postgraduate curriculum is accredited
by ABET."

http://www.dca.ca.gov/pels/a_faq-eng.pdf

 

[BigH]

A Emeritus Dean once told a bunch of us back at Cornell -- It only matters for the first job. After that, it is YOU that will determine the strides you make or don't make in the field. (Dean Solomon Hollister). Other things to consider is what you want to do in life in your engineering field. Are you gearing to stay in project engineering or project management of engineering. How high are your aspirations. Do you have the desire or inclination to be an owner or VIP in your organization (along with the white hairs and other ailments) and excel as a leader - as one who directs - or is your disposition one that you want to do good work but are not really geared to leading but perhaps following as a strong reliable project engineer. I think that a lot of this has to do with how you look at schools. Sometimes "lower" schools will be a better choice in that many of their professors might actually have been practioners some time in their career - they offer more incentive to teach rather than research, etc. I have seen some excellent engineers come out of Asian schools - schools that you would not consider if from America . . . but they are knowlegable and capable (but have, in many cases (not all) the ability to know each tree of the forest but not what the overall forest looks like). Picking the right school is picking one that will GIVE you the education you want and the education that will LEAD you to the path that you wish to follow in engineering. Mmmmmm

 

[bimr]

Good points BigH, but you forget to mention the roles that serendipity and luck will also play in your career.

For example, suppose you go to work for an organization, work diligently, advance up the ladder, 60 hours a week, yada, yada, yada.

Then the firm's treasurer bankrupts the firm by making bad investment decisions and everyone is out of a job and back on the streets.

That is bad luck and totally out of your control. Bus things like that happen in the real world.

It is also true that it matters more what the boss thinks you are doing, than what you are actually doing. Perception matters, and that is why you should take the best option available to you.

Sounds like there is some bias toward Berkley on this forum. I am not on the west coast and don't understand where that would come from. How can you argue against going to the top rated school in the professional that you want to work in?

"Berkeley's graduate program in civil engineering was ranked #1 for the seventh year in a row by U.S. News and World Report. Berkeley's undergraduate program (not stanford's) is ranked #1 in the nation for 2008."

 

[cvg]

I'm not sure there is a bias against Berkley. However the high tuition cost creates it's own bias. If you have the money and want to go the top ranked school, more power to you. I'm sure you will get a world class education at Berkley. That said, the majority of us going into engineering don't have that kind of money to spend on tuition. And the education you get from other (lower ranked) schools can be part and parcel just as good as what Berkley provides. It also depends on your particular area of study. For instance, a civil engineering degree (undergrad or grad) from Colorado State University with emphasis in hydraulics / hydraulic or wind engineering is very highly regarded - probably more than Berkley. Partly because CSU has a top ranked engineering research center which focuses on these fields.

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/ce/students/grad/hydraulic.shtml#intro

 

[bimr]

cvg states:

"the high tuition cost creates it's own bias."

Actually, if you believe the information posted by the universities, the educational fees are much higher for UC Irvine, than for Berkeley.

http://registrar.berkeley.edu/Registration/feesched.html

http://www.editor.uci.edu/05-06/intro/intro.7.htm

Would you still recommend UC Irvine even though that university costs more than Berkeley and the education that you will receive is considered to be of less prestige than Berkeley's?

 

[cvg]

the original poster said he would get a "full ride" to UCI which reduces the cost well below that of Berkley or Stanford. Regardless of the ranking, cost of tuition must be part of the decision to attend any school. And I still wouldn't get too hung up on ratings as the separation between 1st, 2nd and even 10th rated schools may not be that much. There are many schools - some expensive and some cheaper that will offer a top notch educational experience. Most importantly, the school should offer a program that fits well with your educational goals.