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Carbon Fiber mold
6

Carbon Fiber mold

Carbon Fiber mold

(OP)
Tube Construction:
I'm in the process of making a 2.5 inch tube with a gradual 90 degree bend on both ends for the purpose of creating a custom cold air intake for a Miata MX5. This cold air intake has to serve a dual task. One is to reach downward to the air dam and bring in cold air upward to a resevoir blasting across a high flow air filter. This filter takes the cool air to the injection system via the 2.5 inch tube previously described. My problem is that being new to using fiber, I'm accustomed to metal and intended to use aluminum but fiber caught my attention, what should I use for mold material and how can I get the two 90 degree bends and all of this being one piece? Anybody!
Great admirations to those minds in the sky,
Dipstick

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

hello I am also interested in knowing how to do this so could you let me know

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

I also want to know how to do this for intercooler pipes on my car.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

First you can make yourself a model out of plaster or resin, or evan fabricate it.
Then you use your model to make a fibre mould.
After you have made a fibre mould you can hand lay up your fibre to make your parts.

You will probably find that this part is better made in 2 parts. Before you stick the 2 parts together you can smooth out the inside.

Making it in 2 parts would also make it easier to core.

For a first project not an easy thing to do, maybee better going to an expert with your model.

Good luck




RE: Carbon Fiber mold

if you are looking  for inexpensive prototype rotomolded parts in PE made using FRP mold, please email me details on
info@rotousa.com

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

carbon fiber is not suitable for high heat environments a cold air intake would probobly be ok but intercooler pipes would not hold pressurized hot air reliably

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

    I am in the carbon fabrication biz and I can tell you that carbon fiber can be used in a high heat enviroment. I use an epoxy especially for high temp applications. Carbon is used successfully in making intake manifolds for top fuel dragsters.As for making tubes I belive that making your mold in two parts will give you the best results.
  First make a "buck" by making a model of the intended shape and get it as smooth as possable then lay fiberglass or pour a durable plastic material around your model,making sure you can seperate it into two halves when cured.Pop out your model and you have a mold in which to lay up your Carbon piece.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

question... why would you want to make anything out of composite materials that is doing any heat transfering of any kind??? does carbon fiber have a higher heat transfer rate than aluminum??? i dont think so but im not sure on that.... using aluminum will cool off the air much quicker im sure.... and cool air is a good thing when it comes to engines...

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

because it looks really neat! besides most of us are using enormous intercoolers, way bigger than the application calls for. The air should be plenty cool before even entering the carbon pipe.. I was thinking of wraping radiator hose with carbon fiber, then just rip it out, if enough release film is used the flexible hose should pop out with little effort.. Of course this limits how much wraping you can do around the layup. Wraping the layup in tape makes it stronger and ligher, and smoother. but would crush the hose and cause problems..

Anyone done this yet???
email me at wildman@xwindow.ath.cx with any info you may have.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Ok so you say to use a two piece mold but to smooth out the inside before it is put together....  Meaning: lay up the material in both halves let it cure, sand it smooth, then use resin to mate two halves together?

  Thanks for the help

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

2
One Piece Mold!!  I am currently working on making an intake piece for a formula sae car using carbon fiber.  Our mold has about an 80 degree bend in it and we are using a one piece mold.  There is a product called Aquacore that makes this feasible.  It is a pretty sweet material.  You can find their website on google.  It is a water soluble material that you can pack into a starter mold in roughly the right shape.  All you have to do is bake it for a couple hours around 100F then shape it exactly with a file.  It dries real hard and you can completely inclose it.  Just drill a small hole after layup to wash out all the mold material with water.  You can layup on top of it using their Aquaseal, but we have had trouble with the Aquaseal sticking to the mold.  I would stay away from the seal if you want a nice finish.  Just lay it up as you would normally using dry or wet layup (dry has a much better finish look).  We use ABS plastic in roughly the right shape as the "starter" mold.  The Aquacore is about a hundred bucks and you have to buy a five gallon bucket minimum, but its worth it because it usually takes a couple tries to get the right result. Hope this helps.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

This thread is almost 2 years old, but people keep it alive, so here's a little more help on building tubes.  You can use Aquacore (see previous post) to make the prototype core, or you can try to find a soft, flexible foam tubing to use as a core. Think swimming pool toys like noodles, or foam pipe insulation.  Use a bendable metal spline (aluminum rod, coathanger wire, etc.) down the middle to form the bends.  You're going to make this flexible core, form the carbon fiber (CF) laminate around it, let it cure, and then pull the flexible core out and throw it away.  Epoxy resin does not attack most foams, but test first.

CF does not have to be vacuum-bagged after wetting it with resin, but you can achieve a lighter, more attractive part by wrapping the wet laminate with heat-shrink tape.  Here's a site with tube making instructions, and some good epoxy information:  http://www.info-central.org/construction_heattape.shtml

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

The OP has probably already figured out these two things, which I post for others' benefit:

An easy way to make an odd shaped tube is to build a core in the shape of the interior, entirely from paraffin wax, wrap the wet laminate over that, and wrap the whole assembly in Saran Wrap to debulk it.  When the Saran is easy to peel off, the resin has cured.

Directing air from in front of a chin spoiler/ air dam into the engine also directs water from deep puddles into the engine.  Several bent connecting rods detract seriously from the resale value of a Corvette.

-Mike-

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

"Several bent connecting rods detract seriously from the resale value of a Corvette."
Yes, but he's working on a Mazda MX5... P-)

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

If we want to be picky about details, he WAS working on an MX5, about 3 YEARS AGO.

The original post is very ancient history, so come on guys, play nice.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Hi, um.....I'm gonna bring the forum back to life. I have a 200 Toyota celica GT-S. My current intake is a hybrid between Home depot parts and the original intake. My current design  around 25% better than anything else in the market. I'm looking to make a complete carbon fiber tube or the life w/ a much straighter design, I believe about one 80 turn and one 30 degree(estimates).

From what I have gathered, my best and cheapest route would be to making a foam core from swimming noodles, and wrap that in CF. the question is.....

how many layers of CF do I need to apply?

I'm using west systems epoxy is that sufficient?

how will I be able to to release the foam core?

I have some PVA, Peel ply, and silicone spray, How should I utilize those releasing agents?

I have problems w/ bubbles in my epoxy, how should I deal w/ that problem?

i think vacuum bagging will bring out the best product, can I use a conventional vacuum, with a filter to catch the epoxy, and by wrapping the pipe with peelply?

I was also thinking of going to a muffler shop and have them bend me a tube to my specs, Then wrapping it w/ CF to achieve the look, is that feasible?

***Thats all I believe, I'm only 18 years old and I'm eager to learn more about fabrication. Hope one day to be able to produce this tube in quantities and resell them to make a profit, with as low of cost as possible

any help will be greatly appreciated

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

If you use polystyrene foam, once the epoxy has set, you can dissolve the styrene out with paint thinners.

If you use exhaust tubing, you will not be able to remove it from the moulding, unless you split the moulding then glue the 2 halves together, a process I would not recommend for reasons of both strength and aesthetics.

I am sure that West Systems are good epoxies, and you need to work the air bubbles out with a roller or pressure, by say,wrapping with plastic film layered on in a similar manner to applying a bandage.

The easiest way might be to buy some carbon fibre prepreg, then wrap a styrene foam core, then cure the prepeg, then dissolve out the core. You would need to verify that the curing temp was below the deflection temperature of the core.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

how about vacuum bagging?

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

I doubt you can pull enough vacuum with a domestic vacuum cleaner.

Even if you do, you risk drawing some resin over and ruining the machine.

Wrapping tightly with plastic film will expel the air. The cure temperature and the strength of the wrap and the mould at those temps will be the main concern

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Hi
I need advice on super smooth CF asthitic surface finishes.

  Im attempting a complex shape specifically for load bearing therefor the former need not be removed but it also needs to look dam sexy so bandage style wrapping is out.
I need a way to have sheet CF finish without joins you know the ones where you cant see the fiber edges under the resin(like the pros:)how is that acheived?

It feels like i should laquer the inside of a one piece mould and somehow feed in sheet CF in in perfect cut shapes then inflate a thick baloon inside to form it but thats dum...is it?

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Do you need reinforcement in more than 2 planes. If not, maybe you can filament wind with a single yarn of carbon fibre, but that also,might not give the aesthetic effect you want. From what I can guess from your post, I think you are chasing rainbows.

If you want a woven carbon look, you can't have complex shapes without joins.

Just pretend you are a Tailor or an Upholsterer. Could you get your shape in a suiting fabric or upholstery fabric, without seams. If not, why do you imagine you can get it in a carbon fibre fabric.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Uniformity is what i need.
I dont imagine it, I have a two car parts infront of me now which to the naked eye seem to have no join. Now maybe they have a mechanical method of weaving a knitted jumper style sheet which could be inflated from within, are hand made or an advanced mechanical technique has been used...i do 0's and 1's not nuts and bolts so just dont know.

My frame needs strength in a flexing plane and to a lesser degree in a tortional plane.
It is a recumbent cycle frame therefor the load is my mass from above plus cornering vectors and the tortional is for stability.

I will mail you a stock shot of the advised foam former for this frame as there does not seem to be a way to attach it here. The advised finish is body filler sanded and sprayed but i would like a fine CF finish.

The fillament sounds time consuming but i imagine it to be very neat could you describe the process.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

It is really simple. You gust wind the yarn around the core, so you end up with something looking like a coil spring that is fully compressed

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Does it have to be done in multiple planes?
How would i reenforce areas.

i sent an image of the former to your mail does it seem like a realistic process for that shape?

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

I just saw my spelling after an early am post "gust wind" for "just winde"

It Will be difficult to wind the filaments through the hole in the centre unless you make a small spool and do it carefully by hand. You do it just like a bandage, but using single yarns. they are wound very close and parallel to get full cover, but can be criss crossed at a wider pitch on the surface to get an aesthetic effect.

The helix angle you use when winding will significantly effect the reinforcement as it will only reinforce along the axis of the yarn.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Hi everybody, I have a question about making a CF part through a mold.  My plan is to create an RC airplane with CF.  I thought the best way to do this would be with multiple molds, then maybe epoxying the parts together.  My problem is that I have never done this before, so if anybody has some time and could write out some detailed instructions on making a mold, and creating parts with CF, I would greatly appreciate it.  Also, what kind of materials do I need to buy, and where?  I have been looking on the internet, and have some idea about the mold part, but I have no idea where to get Carbon Fiber, or the epoxy. thanks for your help!

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Google will bury you in "how I made my CF whatever" sites, many including step by step ad nauseam and photographs.

Mike Halloran
NOT speaking for
DeAngelo Marine Exhaust Inc.
Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Hi people, this is my first post! Okay, yes i have gone over the issue for CF intercooler piping for my Silvia. Yes you can
do this and here is what i am currently getting ready to do. I purchased 3" I.D. pvc water piping in straight tube and some 90 degree elbows for the moment to get things started. You will go to this site to get your carbon fiber sleaving (or CF Kevlar hybrid sleeving) http://sollerpaddles.com/composites/
He also sells West epoxy at a very good price. The pvc piping is shapeable after a 30 minute soak in the oven at 200 degrees. Get your misc shapes that you need, split the pipes that you have created, so this will be a 2 piece mold. Now comes the cool part! I found a company that makes sail boat steering wheels this way. You create a plastic bladder that will slide into the the initial 2 or 3 layers of the CF sleeving (prepregged before mold insertion of course) and you will inflate this bladder so it pushes the sleeving against the inside walls of the pvc piping. Hold until it sets up, and remove it from the 2 part tubing mold. Bake for
an hour at about 200 degrees. Now if your first prototype is too thin in the wall, you can always go back and add another
layer of CF sleaving. I do believe this this will work for this application. And i also know that i will maintain a cooler air charge as opposed to alluminum. CF has a lower mass by something like 1.5  compared to alluminum so there is definitely going to be less heat transfer. Good Luck on your projects! Also, the guy that has bubbles in his epoxy after mixing, go to the plastic store and pick up some of that large diameter clear acrylic tube ( the 6 or 8 inch stuff). Make a chamber that your cup of epoxy will fit in, make a sealable lid and attach a vacuum hose (i use a vacuum pump from a scrapped mini fridge : )) and this will suck the bubbles to the top of the cup of epoxy.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Okay, this is an addendum to my last post on this subject. I have a better way to do this and i think you will agree. Attached is my email sent to a friend that works at Garrett (the turbo manufacturer). He is also my next door neighbor.
///////////////////////////////////////////////
Yea the tube ends need to be beefed up for sure.
There will be a decent flange on there to prevent
slipoff, but since the clamps have a uniform
force
around the pipe... i might be able to wrap
unidirectional CF at the clamping points. I think
that could prevent crushing forces. But to answer
your question, they are making kayak paddles with
a form that you slide your prepregged CF sleeve
over... then they slide on a low temp heat shrink
to give even pressure and it squeezes out any
excess epoxy. Now applying this to the IC piping
idea: Lay up one sleave layer only and cure it.
Split it to remove off the form, then put the two
halves back together with maybe just epoxy to
fuse
the seams back together. So you have a tube now
in the shape you want that is about 1 mm. thick,
next you prep however many sleaves you plan to
use. Put those sleeves over the tube and then
slide over the low temp heat shrink tubing. Heat
the heat shrink starting at the center to let the
excess epoxy flow outwards to the tube ends. Cure
it and remove the heat shrink. Now you have a
perfect tube. : )  And it will have a super
smooth finish.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Hi, these are all great posts.Right now I,m in the process of designing a cf intake plenum for my car.My question is what would be the best way to connect the cf from the runners to the head and the plenum to the throttle body? Should I use an aluminum plate, and if so whats the best way to join the two materials, or should I go 100% cf with gaskets of course. Thanks in advance for any advice.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

That sounds like a heavy project. Well running bolts thru any CF material is dicey unless you have at least 1/4 T to work with. Your fiber to epoxy ratio should be 50/50 by weight, so you do need to pre impregnate and lose any excess epoxy that would weaken the structure. As far as bonding CF to metal, just sand the alluminum plate surface with something like a 400 grit wet/dry paper. That will increase the bonding surface
area. For a variety of high temp epoxies, check out JD Lincoln
in Costa Mesa Ca. http://www.jdlincoln.com/  they also prepreg
for customers large or small. But i think you are one the right track with the plate because it will handle the bolts better.
Mike

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

I do plenty of carbon fiber parts for engine covers and also some tubes. I will vacuum infuse the resin into the carbon fiber and in this method I will create as close to a 50 50 ratio as possible. I make a female mold for my tubes, and i also use a modified inner tube from a bicycle with the ends clamped. I pull my sock over the end and insert the tube and sock into the female mold uninflated, then close the mold and inflat the tube till it is slightly expanded. Now I can seal it with a vacuum bag and infuse the resin into the carbon fiber. I have done all my molds in this fashion for 3 years now and I have clear carbonfiber parts all the time.

Check out the latest engine cover parts for clarity of carbon fiber.
http://photos.yafro.com/pics3/i/20050331/14/d/3/9/d39d3106f864b02899bf82f02382c6a30_full.jpg

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Hi Doogie,
That idea for the innertube came to me a few weeks back when i was racking my brain over a good inflatable bladder for the tube mold. I cut the tube as you describe and was amazed how well the tube worked! I had a flat tire on a bike in my garage so i thought what the heck, and tried it. Great pic of your work BTW. I am making CF mirror covers for the 240SX and working on some other parts as well. My work  http://kognitiondesign.com/mirror_covers_95-98_240SX.html

I am tooling up for the 350Z and Scion right now for parts.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

there are other pictures of parts on that sight incase you didn't look.
Thanks, By the way, how are yur customers reacting to your prices?

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Hi Doogie, have you done any structural parts projects such as strut tower braces etc? I have some uni carbon and have thought about making a one piece part where the holes for the shocks are just drilled out, and probably beef up the ends with a couple layers of kevlar to handle bolt and nut abrasion/compression. Like an upside down U beam config. The open area facing down towards the engine. Maybe like an overall thickness of 1/8"  or even 1/4".
Mike

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

This thread is full of great information guys, Thanks.

Ive got some questions about mold construction though.
 
Kognition- Are you still using pvc? What did you do about imperfections between the straight pieces and the pre-made bends.

Basically, Im trying to find a fairly easy, cheap way to make several different pipe designs. They need to be mandrel bent style and easy to modify and remake.

I was going to use the foam tubing style, but I figured where it bent there would be a crease. Also, how could you shrink it without crushing the foam?

Thanks again

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

No we are making an rtv silicone 2 part mold over existing piping. And going to go with 500 degree rated epoxy. Then insert your CF sleeve with bicycle innertube, expand, and insert into a vacuum bag. The mold is not finished as of yet, but we have chosen to go this route. It provides the best finish over wrapping a pipe with CF.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Thanks for the quick reply,

What brand did you decide on for the silicon.
Also, did you first mold the part in one piece then split it, or did you make 2 seperate molds?  The reason I ask is because Im making pipes that bend on more than one axis and will have to do it in one piece, then carefully split it along the center.

When you say "existing piping" Im assuming you mean factory steel/aluminum pipes.  Im trying to find a cheap product that I can build plugs cheaply, without having to fabricate a steel pipe before hand. I liked the idea of pvc, but theres just too many imperfections in it and no real way to repair them.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

I use the Tin Sil 70-60 2 part rtv available at www.uscomposites.com  good stuff, but its $100 a gallon.

I take a pipe and mount it on a flat plane, build up a layer of modelling clay halfway up. Build a dam around it to hold the rtv when it is poured. I used 1.5" thick sheets of styrofoam available at Home Depot to quickly build dams and adhese them together with silicone caulk. Wax your clayed up surface with car wax paste using the soft sponge pad and dab the surface completely. A couple layers will do. Pour rtv. Let set. Now you need to very carefully flip this whole thing upside down. Carefully remove clay. Wax the new rtv surface and exposed remaining pipe surface very good. Build another dam and repeat the process. From this point to can reinforce the rtv shape integrity by glassing it. Then splitting that. Now you should have a workable shape to make parts from that will have the original surface finish.
Hope this helps.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Hi guys I am new to this as well. Its hard for me to imagine what you guys are talking about without anypics showing it. I looked on google for these pics and it always pops up with pics of finished products. No step by step pics. Whenever you make CF pipes are the molds good for only one use like with the aquacore. Can anyone send me some pics so I can get an idea of how the layup looks? Any help is greatly appreciated!

Anthony
makaveli200369@aol.com

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Anthony,
It does take a little getting your mind around it, but if you are new to composites... i suggest getting to know the materials first so you get a handle on it. Making tubes is indeed a task for those with experience. I for one do not post images of our manufacturing processes (and most companies do not. But i have explained above how you can do it. And there are a few different ways to do it. I would check google again
this time adding the domain extension "EDU" for the Universities which do post video and images of course projects.
Mike

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

As an afterthought,
If you are new to composites, it really has nothing to do with mold making. Both are completely different realms. But wanting to learn one, will force you to learn the other eventually. But once you get the basics down for both, you are really only limited by your imagination and budget.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

I just ordered some books on it. I am trying to volunteer at a co-workers friends shop where he builds aircraft parts. I'll sweep the floors to learn and see how it all works.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

http://www.turbomustangs.com/techarticles/PBcarbonfiber.php

This should give you a basic idea of the process, you just need top apply it to making a pipe.

Kog, have you had any problems with the seams between the 2 mold halves. I havent started yet but I would think it would be difficult to get it seamless. Thanks

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Yes you do get expulsion in between the seems. However, if your mold rubber is at least 1" in thickness all around, you wont get any weird things happenning to your shape (assuming you are working under a vacuum bag). The seam acts as a vent for excess epoxy. And aids in removing any hidden air pockets if you are using the wet layup method. The resulting seam edge is easily blended away with some 1,000 grit wet/dry paper.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

scapa thanks for that link..that is the best link I have seen yet! Thanks for posting it.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

We do use vacuum pumps from mini fridges. You can buy a new mini fridge for about $60. We make alot of small cf parts and have 10 mold tables with dedicated mini vacuum pumps mounted underneath each wood table. These tables are on wheels as well. If you need more info on constructing your own vacuum pump, you can check this site: http://www.dream-models.com/eco/vacuumpump.html#N100A7

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Hi Kognition, what is the name or link for the company that makes sailboat steering wheels.  I am trying to figure out how to make a steering wheel out of carbon fibre.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

http://www.exitengineering.com/

Basically they expand cf within a mold by use of a bladder like an inner tube. But the bladder i think remains in the part permanently so they must be making low cost bladders out of plastic or something.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

What will not stick to the carbon fiber and epoxy? I want to make a mold out of foam you can buy at a craft store. Will I end up with the epoxy sticking to this?

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

No you do not want foam coming in contact with your epoxy or carbon/glass etc. Your mold should be smooth so your part comes out smooth. And you should consider making your mold with modelling clay and or quick setting cement like "cement all". But there are variables i don't know about your project which would give a better idea of what materials to use to make your mold. RTV silicone rubber is an excellent material that you can pour over your part (providing it is a fairly simple shape). The RTV i use sets up quick and just needs to set overnite before use. RTV usually does not require a mold release, but if the part is under vacuum, there is a tendency for small particles of the mold to lift off of the surface. So
a mold release is suggested. Then you just strip the mold release from the cured part with mineral spirits.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

For simple molds of appropriate shape, Saran wrap can work as a mold release.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Yes, saran wrap is excellent and we use it everyday actually. But Mike is right, it depends on what your shape is. It does not do well in compound curves using CF because the saran has a tendency to crease in curves and this creates actual creases in the finished surface of CF that really cannot be fixed unless you sand in out (bad idea btw).

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Thanks guys..all im doing is making a small intake for a motorcyle. very easy shape with out any complex bends. saran wrap sounds like it will work for a first try.

RE: Carbon Fiber mold

Another option for small frp parts is to make a negative of the part from paraffin, by directly sculpting a cavity, and filling it with resin and fiber.

Paraffin also makes an excellent core for parts like intake tracts.  You can wrap wet fiber on it to make a tube directly.  It gets more difficult if the tube needs ears at the ends.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

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