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Fewer Engineers/More Work
28

Fewer Engineers/More Work

Fewer Engineers/More Work

(OP)
Has anybody heard or have read stats on the number of engineering graduates per year, and trends?

I was talking with my friends kid the other day about the engineering profession (20 years for me). I know that the job market is highly dependant on location. However, in my discussions with him, it seemed like fewer students are entering engineering schools after the computer dot.com bubble blew up. Does it seem like most college students want to make easy money the easy way versus working as engineers?  

If this is the case, I would expect a critical shortage of engineers in the next 5 to 10 years.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Are you  kidding?

There are tens of thousands of engineers cranked out of the colleges in Asia each year, most of which are more than happy to ship out to western countries if they can get a Visa.  If there is any "shortage" in the western countries, it is a simple matter to bump up the Visa quota and backpedal on all this  background security check  stuff. The backup plan is to outsource- which may actually become the primary game plan.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

5
Hi metengr,

No need to worry about a shortage, just check out the thread:

Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs
Thread730-63828

It's ironic you should start this thread just 1 day after the 1st anniversary of dannym's thread.  I think he summed up the situation completely when he wrote:

One of the threads in this forum concerns itself with encouraging women to go into engineering. If you care about the person, be honest with them (and yourself). Engineering as a career for a large number of people is over. A bright young person would be smarter to pursue another profession.

I see that you are a materials engineer.  Perhaps you can provide some help to MetalMan14 who graduated in this field in Dec. 2002, but (as far as I know) has not been able to find a job.  You can read about his experiences in the thread:

Is there any hope for us entry level engineers?
Thread730-83140

There are several threads in this forum that confirm the widely held opinion that predicitions of "shortages" of engineers and scientists are completely unfounded.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

want to make easy money the easy way versus working as engineers?

Gee, I thought that engineering was an easy way to earn money.  It is much easier being a desk jockey verses doing manual labor.  Also, in many plants, engineers get the best doughnuts because they can find a way to be where the doughnuts are when they get there.  And lastly, how many other workers can spend there time on the web in forums like this and keep their jobs?

CRG

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

[b]I want to make easy money the easy way!![\b]

My only problem is that I don't know what way that is. If you know, Dave, please share. I'd be happy to pay you a percentage finder's fee or something.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Oops, accidently click "submit" instead of "preview".

My old DOS habits (& continued habit of keyboard navigation over clicking) make me always type the backslash instead of the slash.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

3
If you want to see the stats for Canada (not just Ontario, but the whole country), have a look at www.geocities.com/martinsmoltenmetal/index.htm . The data sources are given under the graph and have been verified. There's no shortage of engineers here- in fact there's been a three-fold increase in the number of engineers entering the workforce on a yearly basis in a single decade- a decade in which Canada's job force and economy have grown less than 20%.  Input minus output equals accumulation- no shortage now, nor in the forseeable future.  Even the retirement of the baby boomers in ten+ years won't make a dent in the accumulated glut in supply IMHO.

And the simple unemployment stats for engineers don't give an accurate picture.  Engineers generally find something to do to make money.  The tragedy is when it happens to be something other than engineering out of necessity rather than choice.  That's called "under-employment", and it's the bane of our profession in Canada.  Under-employment levels are staggering.

In Ontario, the stats from the Council of Ontario Universities show that an engineer who graduated in 2001 was significantly more likely to be out of work two years after graduation than the AVERAGE university graduate- that means the average of all of them, including those stellar job-magnet programs like fine arts and journalism.

This "shortage of engineers" crap is propagated primarily by people and industries who thrive on having access to cheap, "flexible" engineering labour.  They want us to be a commodity, not a profession.  And we're essentially silent in response.  In fact, we attract more young people to our profession in a vain attempt to boost public awareness of how essential our profession is to the economy and public well-being.  Instead it increases supply and makes our lot worse- and theirs too.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

moltenmetal:
If there are too many engineers in canda, how come there was such an inflation in engineering costs for the expansion of the tar sands in Fort McMurray area? The companies involved blamed most of the overruns to insufficient availability of engineers in that industry.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

2
(OP)
You know what is most interesting about this forum is all of the diverse opinions. Verrrrrry informative.

BOTTOM LINE:
Engineers with the necessary "marketable" skill sets that can remain flexible in terms of location, and can plan ahead, will continue to be employed. Others can complain about it.

Hey, CRG, lets have a donut with our coffee!

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

The problem isn't a shortage of engineers but a shortage of good engineers. Employers complain that engineers entering the job market are generally of a low academic standard. Those from Asia tend to have a higher standard than the West.

corus

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

College is BIG Business!  Who do you think, along with the help of our engineering societies, (which happen to have a disproportionate number of professors on board) continues to tell potential students that there is a shortage of engineers?  Why do you think they tell them this?  They face the same dilema that software companys face: better students/better software require less (additional)course work/less upgrades which equals a diminshing income.  So, weaken the accademic program (reduce the qualifications for entry)/let your clients debug your software, tell your future students that they will need to take additional classes in underwater basket weaving for their societal development skills/or tell your clients that the next round of software upgrades will have debugged the problems we identified ( but the new bells and whistles will require us to debug again).

Twenty years ago it would have taken a staff off 10 or more to survey, design, and draft one mile of road way and do it in approximately 9 months.  Now we can do it with 3-5 and some very powerful and relatively low priced civil engineering software, in as little time as 5-6 months.  (For <$15,000 we can and have purchased a full set of civil software for surveying, hydrology, watershed management, road design, storm and sanitary sewers, and more) this is much less than your basic engineering graduate salary for one year, the same for a registered surveyor or a civil tech with an associates degree!)

With all of the engineers and firms out there, how do we stay in business?  The public in general expects mass production not only from the goods they buy off the store shelf but also in the services they obtain.  When you go to your doctor do you think that s/he is inferior to all other doctors offering the same service?  I hope not. (Also do you negotiate with them over their prices?) In the medical schools they limit the number of students that can enroll each year!  What do engineering schools do?  They lower their requirements and add on. They add on buildings and they add on liberal arts classes to the undergraduate degree programs and they move, in my opinion, the core classes up to the graduate level.  Look at the costs of college over the last 10 or more years, inflation for the country as a whole has been steady around 2-3%, but the costs of college has increased at least 7%. Free enterprise for the majority of society results in lower costs through supply and demand.  So how do we stay in business.  Aggressive marketing and educating our potential clients of the quality of our services is one way - with out work we go out of business; also we have to cut costs.  We buy software that allows one person to do what it used to take several.  We can then move into smaller, lower costing facilities; some of us work from home with even lower overhead which is then passed on to the clients; since all engineers are the same, one just costs more than the other.

Don't get me wrong I throughly enjoy my work and currently would not want to change careers.  But I do not recommend engineering to anyone, unless that is what they want to do.  It has its rewards other than monetary, such as knowing that I contribute to the health, safety and welfare of society; it is challenging as well as positive work (- we are part of building rather than part of leaching or destruction).

Its time for me to get off my soap box.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

A star for you pmkPE for telling it like it is!

If a young person were to ask me if they should consider a career in engineering, I would not ask them how good were their grades in math and science, since most of the working engineers I know came from the middle of their classes (not the top).  Instead I would ask them the following three questions:

1. Do you know a successful engineer who is willing to mentor you after you graduate?  If the answer is no, that's strike one.

2. Do you know any working engineers, or at least technicians or tradespeople who can tell you the type of working conditions you will encounter if you are able to land a job upon graduation?  If no, strike two.

3. Does the university you are planning to attend have a co-op program to give students practical work experience?  If no strike three.  Best take a look at some other career.

I'm not saying someone who has three strikes definitely will fail to find happiness in the world of engineering.  But the chances are slim, and the road will likely be rocky.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Lorentz's has some good advice.

Other advice for those considering engineering as a career:

1.  Think about the company and industry that would employ you.  Do they have a future?  Will they be decimated by foreign competition?  Is the culture of the business a place where you can fit in?

2.  Consider that engineering may only be a short term stint and that real advancement will only come when you move into management etc. which may not involve much engineering at all.

3.  Engineering is a mobile profession.  If you don't want to relocate, consider another career.  

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

2
Well this is from the Department of Labor (http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos033.htm) here in the USA.  For mechanical engineers, it is bleak.

“Employment of mechanical engineers is projected to grow more slowly than the average for all occupations through 2012.”

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

It looks the same for the Material guys too...

http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos034.htm
"Employment of materials engineers is expected to grow more slowly than the average for all occupations through 2012. "

Even if there was a slow down of new grads in engineering, does it matter?  Our industrie is not looking good.

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Dannym wrote in another thread:

To address your comment on the "engineering shortage". The "shortage" is invented by colleges to keep the seats filled and management to keep the supply high and salaries low.

The following is a quote from an article I've read:
"The engineering shortage crisis is a myth promoted by greedy corporations seeking relaxed rules for imported labor and universities seeking lucrative government grants."

I would have to agree with Dannym's point as everyone that I keep in touch with from university is employed and has many job options open to them.  Some people do lose their jobs for a short period but are right back to work within a couple of monthes.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

There is no doubt that in some industries, the management is convinced that they can obtain a more productive engineering force from overseas. It is my guess that in order to convince legislators to approve an incrrese in visa quotas, they must provide published refernces where  the article claims a shortage of engineers.  So, it is not as simple as mereley supporting a candidate financially, it is also neccesary to convince a journal to publish an article that claims a shortage exists ( and it usually  only takes paying for  a few full page ads to bring the editor around to your way of thinking)

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

davefitz:  

High engineering costs?  There's enough competition amongst the engineering firms in Canada that I doubt the assertion is correct.  Sounds like an excuse rather than an explanation.  

One of my colleagues couldn't find a job in Ontario so that's where he ended up.  Ontario's a big place, with over 1/3 of Canada's entire population, and he couldn't find a job here worth taking.  

Most people who go to remote locations like those of the tarsands projects are there for a max of three years to make money, then they come back to civilization for the lifestyle (i.e. because if they stay any longer, their spouse will leave them!).  That is, if the boom in that business actually lasts the full three years...Roughly every decade, investment in that area dries up- it's a boom/bust business, currently booming.  And they're not taking huge numbers of new grads and mentoring them, because they know they won't stay- they want people with 10+ years of Canadian experience.  Anecdotal reports of localized, short-term shortages always hit the media.  Nobody bothers to look at the overall situation.

The (current) tar sands project option is great for the chem engs and mech engs with process experience.  But consider this:  what's the toughest engineering program to get into as a high-school student?  The one requiring the highest marks?  Electrical/computer engineering.  What was the percentage of electrical engineering grads in 2001 in Ontario who were unemployed in 2003?  10% - a rate over 20% higher than the OVERALL unemployment rate for all Canadians, educated or not.  Hardly smacks of a shortage...And which area has had its enrollment increased by 30% in the last 5 years in Ontario?  You guessed it...

Business wants a cheap, "flexible" (i.e. cowed), plentiful and well-trained labour force, because that's good for business.  Paying premium salaries to get the skilled people you need is not good for business if there's an alternative to get the same skills cheaper.  Hence business will ALWAYS lobby to increase supply.  They play up every anecdotal, localized shortage and make a media story out of it.  Universities depend on growing enrollment for economies of scale, so they're all about increasing supply too.  And politicians go along for the ride.

The other professions in Canada, for the most part, have a handle on this.  When someone wants to increase supply beyond demand, they lean back.  We engineers have to wake up and smell the cat food, and do something about this oversupply situation before we're reduced to a commodity rather than a profession- if it isn't too late already.

Yes, there will always be a job for the top 10% of our profession or any profession.  But that's no reason to promote the profession to young people as a good career choice.  As far as I'm concerned, if a kid has demonstrated a love for engineering by actually DOING some when they're in high school, has good academic standing in the subjects that count and can get into a co-op university, they're probably going to do fine.  If they've got a choice of professions open to them and no strong love for the subject of engineering, I encourage them to explore other options.  The reward to risk and effort ratio in so many other fields of endeavour is far higher than the current situation and forseeable future in engineering, that I'd be doing them a disservice not to point that out.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Many good points molten,

Someone that goes into a profession just for money will hardly ever do well.

Do you really need higher marks to get into electrical engineering than other type of engineering?  You sure didn't a couple of years ago.

I would agree with you that probably about 90% of grads are employed within a year but where did you get the stats from?

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

http://www.cou.on.ca/publications/2003%20Graduate%20Survey.pdf

is where I got the stat from.  And it says that 10% of elec/comp engs were unemployed TWO years after graduation. And that doesn't mean that the 90% had jobs in their field- many, many of them took a job, any job, in any field, to get started on paying back their student loans.  Under-employment is ALWAYS missing from employment stats.  Any job = off the unemployment or welfare roll, so that means "good", doesn't it?  If you're a politician it does...

For contrast, look at ANY profession in that study associated with ANY aspect of medicine- even veternary medicine, or degreed dieticians- and you'll see employment stats after two years of 99-100%.  Hell, even religious studies students had higher employment stats than engineers!  Near 100% employment for engineers once was the situation for engineers in Canada, and isn't now for one simple reason:  oversupply relative to demand.  It has repercussions too- in terms of lousy compensation levels and working conditions for engineers.

Elec/comp eng has had higher admission standards than the other disciplines for years at most of the Ontario universities.  The reason?  Competition amongst applicants due to perceived demand (i.e. rather than real demand).

Getting into a profession just for the money isn't a good idea.  But everyone who gets into a profession SHOULD be able to command compensation befitting their education, skill, experience and the personal/professional risk they take as part of the job.  If they can't, we're wasting scarce societal resources by providing too many people with such a specialized, costly education.  And by profession I mean a regulated, licensed profession like engineering, law, medicine, chartered accounting etc- not the general use of the word "profession" to mean something someone does for money rather than love (i.e. professional as opposed to amateur).

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

I would like to emphasize moltenmetal's comments regarding risk (that in addition to just compensation for our education, qualifications and so on) there is the very important issue regarding liability! Such liability issues affects our ability to pay for errors and ommision insurance.  Since I have been with my firm for over 16 years we have performed work for multi-million dollar contracts in a variety of disciplines and industries including federal, state, municipal, and industrial and some commercial and we have never been sued; in fact we have never had any major problems at all (nothing out of the ordinary).  (We pay attention to detail and throughly understand the project and potential problems before the designs are issued). The legal responsibilities that others such as contractors, lawyers and real estate agents try to spread out to civil/strucural engineer's and surveyors is driving our costs for such insurance out of reach for a small firm such as ours.  Without establishing acceptable rates for various types of work for engineers across the country, we are going to continue spiraling our charges down competing with the numerous engineers that set up shop based on the lowest prices in town.  We have to be aggresive in advertising that qualifications based selection pays in the short and long term.  Experienced engineers are worth the higher fees that they (should be ) charging because they can save their clients money by designing economical designs, they can save many misunderstandings by not taking shortcuts in their design presentation/plans - so they communicate more clearly and concisely to the builders and clients.  How do we teach the "public", which includes our clients, to select a firm wisely?

There is a saying that doctor's bury their mistakes, engineer's make monuments out of theirs.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

I have read the survey(thanks moltenmetal it looks to be a nice little report) and it says for engineering 95.1% of engineers have work and it also states that on average 85% of them are in their field.  Seems like reasonable numbers to me.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Hello All:

I'm glad moltenmetal brought up veterinary medicine in his last post.  Please check out:

http://www.cvma-acmv.org/Default.asp?section=home

You will learn that there are only 4 colleges in all of Canada that teach veterinary medicine, and that the total number of graduates per year is only 400.

It is my belief that the main goal of engineering faculties is to provide employment for engineering professors, and to accomplish this they must maintain enrollments at much higher levels than society really needs.  The results are of course high unemployment and low salaries for engineering graduates.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Are we saying 95% employment is too low?
Most salary surveys that I have seen show a steady increase in new grad salaries.  Are you saying the salaries are too low?  Taking the salary above for example is $58,000Cdn too low for an engineer in training with 2 or less years of experince?

Note I am talking about Canada and don't mean to say this is happening everywhere in the world.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Any field in medicine:  99-100% employment
QCE- have a look at that report again:

Two years after a year 2000 Bachelor's graduation, the employment stats were:

Average of ALL fields of engineering:  95.1% (4.9% unemployment)

Average employment for ALL graduates of ALL university programs:  96.1% (3.9% unemployment)

Average unemployment for ALL CANADIANS in the same period, including those who didn't graduate from high school much less a professional program like engineering:  92.7% (7.3% unemployment)

By those stats, engineer were 25% more likely to be unemployed than the average university graduate- that includes ALL programs.  Sound like a profession in sharp demand, with a shortage?  HARDLY!  Is this acceptable?  ABSOLUTELY NOT!

This data is for recent Canadian grads only.  In the same year as those ~ 8,000 recent eng grads entered the work force, ~ 18,000 engineering immigrants came to Canada...and their work prospects are absolutely terrible- especially in Toronto where 54% of them settled.  That's equivalent to 117% of Canada's entire engineering graduating class, looking for work in a city with 17% of Canada's jobs.  How does THAT situation sound to you?

As to the stat about 85% being employed in their field- that's a mis-quote on your part.  The stat was an average of all grads, not just of engineers, and it was the total number of people who said that their work was either "closely", or "somewhat", related to their university education.  It's hard to imagine anyone working in a field which is not at least tangentially related to skills they gained in university.  So the question was the equivalent of, "Did you learn ANYTHING in university which is relevant to your present job?".  And 85% answered "yes"- big whup!  The other 15% are working at McDonalds, I guess!  If you asked the question, "Are you working in a profession related to your field of study", I doubt the response would have been anywhere near 85%.

Far from being a profession in demand or shortage, ours is in massive surplus, and getting worse every day.  Have another look at those stats and ask yourself which of those professions you'd recommend YOUR child study?!  Unless your kid's in love with engineering, I'd send them looking elsewhere.  Take optometry for instance:  100% employment and almost twice the starting salary- and only one additional year of training relative to a Bachelor's in engineering.  Why can't engineering be like that?  It never WILL be if we don't get a handle on the supply side, that's for sure!

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Wow, that is some funny math.

Would I send my child into a program that has a 95% employment rate? - Yes

It is funny how you state that the study is flawed when it doesn't agree with your opinion but it is perfect when it does agree with your opinion.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

(OP)
Hmmmm…..when I started this thread 25 posts ago, I began by stating that one perception from a college student is that fewer students are entering engineering schools. This may or may not be the case, depending on the engineering school and engineering major. Most things in life other than death and taxes are cyclical in nature, so the lull in the job market shall come to pass.

As far as the engineering profession in the US, it is ALIVE and very WELL in the Power Generation, the infrastructure and in the industrial services sectors of the US. The industrial services sector consists of large or small engineering consulting firms that provide equipment condition assessment services, plant operational problem solving, construction project management services for new or re-powering aging power plants, failure analysis of power generation equipment, boiler/pressure vessel inspection services, just to name a few. The infrastructure services sector - road and bridge construction is also alive and well - I see want adds for project (civil and structural) engineers for local state DOT in my Tribune paper in spurts. Take a look around and see how our infrastructure has aged and will require extensive repairs or replacement.

To those gloom and doom engineers that either entered the profession because they wanted to become dot.com millionaires or because they had no clue what an engineer does and decided engineering provides a stable middle class income, better change careers! For those that have a serious interest in the engineering profession, jobs will be found and you will be rewarded both in salary and job satisfaction. Keep your options open for relocation, treat each job as a learning experience, and you will survive.

Engineering jobs that deal with infrastructure improvements and gas/electric utilities in the US can't and won't be outsourced. As far as the influx of engineers to fill these jobs in the US that is total BS! Some of this outsourcing crap has more to deal with political agendas by our folks in Washington, especially around election time.

In my dealings with other power generation companies (Fossil or Nuclear) across the US at technical meetings that I attend, I have not seen one foreign engineer on a visa displacing engineers trained in the US. Granted, most companies are looking to cut costs. This is reality and the effects of a global economy. However, I believe most companies are starting to recognize the importance of keeping seasoned engineers with valuable skill sets and tribal knowledge to avoid re-training new hires. This does pose a problem for new hires because older engineers are remaining on the job longer. However, as time goes on, older engineers will have to retire creating openings for new hires and perhaps energizing succession planning that was prevalent in the past. Succession planning basically kept the job market stable; new hires were mentored to take the place of retired workers. Current engineering students need to explore internships or Coop engineering programs to get a foot in the door prior to graduation.

Sorry folks, but I don't see how any of the engineering jobs in the utility, industrial services or infrastructure sectors in the US will evaporate any time soon!

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

"the engineering profession is alive and very well in the.. Power generation sector in the US"

Oh, really. There hasn't been more than 5 or 6 large (750 MWe +)coal fired units built since 1980, the 3 largest boiler mfrs are either officially bankrupt on on the edge, of the 2 steam turbine vendors one had to sell out to a german firm, the staff levels at the boiler vendors is about 15% of the level found in the 1990 ( although much can be attributed to productivity increase via software etc). Its about as alive and very well as Benjamin Franklin is.

Because of the financial instability of the US boiler vendors, the most likely vendors to supply the next round of large coal fired units are likely to be from Japan. Similarly, the rate of innovation in the design codes is stagnant at best ( compare ASME code updates to the EU PED). And of course the effect of the Enron debacle on the vendors of HRSGs and related EPC outfits has been devastating.

There may be some truth that there is work to be had in life extension of the 50+ yr old base of fossil units ( and to also address a possible rash of premature P91 failures) , but if these units are ultimately replaced , it would be a challenge for the US engineering force to credibly address that demand using the workforce and financial resources in place.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

(OP)
There are various power plants that will be built in the Midwest over the next 5 years because the idiots that invested in combined and simple cycle power plants are going belly-up with natural gas prices. Nuclear is holding its own.  Where do you think electric power is going to come from to meet future demand from air???

If you think simple or combined cycle power plants can compete with low cost coal-WAKE-UP MAN. Our coal fired power plants are in demand day in and day out. I see nothing but potential in the energy sector for the next 10 years +.  Fluidized bed boilers have great potential with state of the art environmental upgrades.

Where the heck do you reside on an island??????

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

I suggest you do a little research and look at who are the successful bidders for these new coal plants. "Samurai power engineer" may be a suitable skit for Saturday night live.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

(OP)
Also,...
forgot to mention that one boiler OEM in the US that supplies components to our particular units and other fossil units across the US is very much alive. In fact, they have made money for their parent company. Keeping these old fossil units runnin....

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

I could almost give you a star metengr for your advice:

To those gloom and doom engineers that either entered the profession because they wanted to become dot.com millionaires or because they had no clue what an engineer does and decided engineering provides a stable middle class income, better change careers!

The problem is that university professors recruit high school graduates by preying on their misconceptions as to the reality of engineering.  Quite often these students do find some type of work upon graduation, but they may be underemployed in "token" engineering jobs that could just as well be done by someone with a college diploma.

The question facing students deciding whether to go to university or not is: "Is the extra tuition expense and lost wages justified, or would I be better off going to a community college?"

A final warning I will give to high school seniors, is that at anytime legislation can be passed to change the rules regarding the level of education required for an occupation.  This has happened in nursing.  Some regions seeing a "critical shortage" have coped by setting up 2 year "practical" nursing programs at colleges much to the anger of students enrolled in 4 year university nursing programs.   Another measure is to simply import nursing grads from developing countries.

It seems though metengr, that your fears of a critical shortage of engineers have been alleviated.  If your friend's kid decides not to pursue engineering I am confident that there will be plenty of others (imported from the third world if needed) to fill the gap.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

(OP)
lorentz;
I must say, I do enjoy this forum. It is a great way to have interesting discussion on important issues.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

QCE:  

What's funny about my math?  Have a look at my previously-posted link which shows the supply situation for engineers in Canada vs time and see if you're still laughing!

I didn't praise the study when it supported my point of view and criticize it when it didn't.  I did what a good engineer is supposed to do:  I looked critically at the data and drew my own conclusions.  If you read the study, the 85% stat is not a measure of how many people are employed in their field of study, because that's NOT the question that was asked.  And the "95% employment" stat is not a measure of how many engineering grads are employed in their field, it's a measure of how many of them have a job of ANY KIND after two years.  To sum it up, a kid graduating after four years of having the snot beaten out of them in an engineering program, with a matching student debt, is about 25% less likely to be employed in a job OF ANY KIND than the average university graduate.  Is that satisfactory?  Not to me it isn't, and I doubt it's satisfactory to those kids who are out of work, either!  Why, then, would we INCREASE engineering school enrollments year over year?  That's EXACTLY what's been done in Ontario.  Combined with immigration rates for engineers which have increased 12-fold in a decade, ENGINEERING employment prospects for Ontario's engineering grads are terrible and getting progressively worse.

The key stats here are the comparison of the employment numbers from one profession to another.  Engineering loses in that comparison big time.  If you chart the relative compensation levels of the professions versus time in Canada, you'll see that we started out with wage parity with doctors and lawyers in the '50s and '60s and now we earn less than half of what doctors do.  If a kid is smart enough to gain entry into an engineering program, chances are they have other options open to them too.  Why actively recruit them into a profession suffering from a drastic over-supply?

Nobody's accused me of it directly, but there's an implication that I'm some kind of "dissatisfied engineer"- somebody who regrets his career choice because it doesn't earn me enough money.  Nothing could be further from the truth- I'm entirely satisfied with my choice of profession, and although I wouldn't say no to a 20% raise I'm not actively searching for another job either.  Engineering suits my skills and interests perfectly.  What I AM dissatisfied with, and feel all engineers should be dissatisfied with, is the continual devaluation of my services relative to those of the other senior professions.  I'm dissatisfied with the ratio of reward to risk in my profession, which has shrunk drastically in the past 50 years.  I feel, and the data I have supports that feeling, that one of the major causes of this decline is our utter inability as a profession to get a handle on the supply situation.  I'm too proud in my profession to permit its devaluation to continue unnoticed.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

"As far as the engineering profession in the US, it is ALIVE and very WELL in the Power Generation"

Well for the Nuclear Engineer, this statment is not true.  As stated by the Department of Labor.

"Little or no growth in employment of nuclear engineers is expected through 2012. Due to public concerns over the cost and safety of nuclear power, no commercial nuclear powerplants have been built in the United States for many years. "

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

(OP)
Tobalcane;
Sorry, but I know several engineers that work for the largest nuclear generator in the US (Exelon Corp). Apparently Exelon has been hiring (20 this year) nuclear engineers, and from what I hear they can't find enough qualified engineers to fill certain plant positions.

Either people don't want to move to the Midwest to fill jobs at nuclear power plants or somebody is having a field day with Department of Labor Stats.

Like any good engineer, always question the source and validity of data!!!!

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

moltenmetal,

What I meant was that you agree that 95% number for number employed, but is it 95% plus or minus 5%.  We don't know.  Then you argue that the 85% average is no good.  You assume that the engineering college is less than 85% when in fact it could be higher.  Again we don't know.  What I meant by the funny math is that you sound like a politician that has a PhD in statistics.  How many people would look at 95% versus 96% and say that you are 25% less likely to have a job, most would say you are 1% more likely to have a job.

OK, I change my mind them, we should ban immigration of people with engineering degrees and cut enrollment at engineering colleges so we can all get a raise in pay.

I'm sure industry would just go along with it.  I'm sure they wouldn't think about hiring 2 year technical school grads with "engineeering certifications".

 

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

7
I've heard of "the engineering shortage" just about my entire career (30 years). Except for short periods, there has always been an excess of engineers. This is why engineering salaries have not kept pace with the real professions such as Pharmacy, Medicine, Law, etc.

I'm sorry if this offends people and I'm sure some people will get defensive and say that I'm wrong. Before you get defensive consider the facts.

Employers and professional societies are interested in keeping a large supply of cheap, competent engineers available. To this end, they have created the “shortage” fairy tale, encouraged students to go into engineering and petitioned for immigrant quotas to be relaxed for engineers.

Currently, industry (and the related engineering) is going overseas. Engineering work is being outsourced overseas. Unless schools cut back severely on engineering graduations or engineers begin to die in large numbers, the glut of engineers will become severe.
 
Employers are reluctant to hire competent but untrained engineers and bear the cost of education. They want a large supply of highly trained engineers available so that they can hire them for the duration of a project and lay them off at the end of the project. I have had many calls recently from recruiters looking for engineers who can "hit the decks running" or "attack an aggressive schedule". The salaries offered were mediocre at best. When they cannot hire engineers for their short-term projects at low wages they cry "shortage".

 If they offer an attractive salary with good benefits, compensate for relocation and provide reasonable job security (or an employment contract), the "shortage” will quickly resolve itself.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Good to hear from you dannym!

Engineering has always been, at best, a "cyclical" occupation; when the economy catches a cold engineering grads catch pneumonia.

A good example of this was provided by the 1984 book:

What Jobs Pay, Complete Guide to Careers & Salaries in Canada.
Anisef, Paul & Baichman, Etta.


At the time the book was written the authors reported the following conditions:

"Job prospects for engineers in 1983 were extremely poor. One-quarter of the 1982 engineering graduates were out of work, while three-quarters of the 1983 graduating class were unable to find employment in their field."

They also noted (commenting about the 1982 grads):

"For the first time, university engineering graduates discovered that employment opportunities were decidedly mixed and that employers frequently preferred to hire graduates of technical institutes insofar as they were generally able to pay them lower salaries."

Now that was 20 years ago.  Today, we have outsourcing to third world countries, plus modern productivity software that further reduces the number of engineers needed.

For all of these reasons, I would not recommend any high school graduate enroll in engineering unless they have "connections" that guarantee them a job upon graduation.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

How incredibly short sighted are these myopic questions....

1. Do you know a successful engineer who is willing to mentor you after you graduate?  If the answer is no, that's strike one.

First of all, they are asking YOU that question, and if you are not a successful engineer, then maybe they should ask someone else; furthermore, if they are asking you this question, and you answer it, are you not mentoring? If not, are you willing to mentor? Also, they are going to go to school for 4 years, at least; don't you think that will give them enough time to find a mentor? Of course, WTH said they even need a mentor? I never had a mentor, and I am quite successful as an engineer.... stupid question.

2. Do you know any working engineers, or at least technicians or tradespeople who can tell you the type of working conditions you will encounter if you are able to land a job upon graduation?  If no, strike two.

WHAT???? Are you serious? A high school kid, not even starting college, is suppose to explore ever aspect of industry by talking to the handful of people he/she might know? What an absurd question, completely irrelevant toward decision making. So, he's going to go talk to a machinist, and ask to see where he works, and make a career decision based on that...come on. I never talked to anyone about this, I made the decision based on what I liked studying in highschool...did it occur to you to ask what they studied in high school as a major? Get any insight as to the interests? Innovative qualities?

3. Does the university you are planning to attend have a co-op program to give students practical work experience?  If no strike three.  Best take a look at some other career.

Co-ops do not make an engineer.... Please leave the counseling to the professionals, you missed the mark completly...

If someone asks me about engineering, I talk about it and let them make the decision....

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

metengr,

I think the stats that the Department of Labor (DOL) issued is for the whole country.  Your state may be experiencing a good trend right now, but for the rest of the country it is not a good sign.  The twenty new hires you mentioned were probably the total new nuclear engineers hired for the year out of the whole country.  Incidentally, if Exelon Corp is the largest nuclear generator, 20 new hires should not be a big number.  When I was hired by my first company (which was only third tier in defense companies), there where approximately 100+ engineering college grad/professional Mechanical Engineer new hires that were hired thru out the company.  If Exelon Corp is the largest nuclear generator and only hired twenty people, I would think that they can hire a lot more than that if Exelon was on the up swing.  If the nuclear designing companies all of a sudden started getting new projects to build new nuclear plants in the USA, I could see the trend of hiring nuclear engineers reversing.  But, because of negative public views of the power source, I don’t really see new nuclear plants being built in the USA in the near future.  Because of this, the DOL speculates that since there is no real growths (new nuclear plants) the jobs for nuclear engineers will be stagnate.  That is how I interpreted…  http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos036.htm

The nuclear power plant industry is not like other industries were new projects/contracts/business come along and they have to be staffed by new people.  Hence a growing company.  If there are no new nuclear power pants being built, were will the new jobs come from?  Right now it seems that the only jobs for nuclear engineers are to replace an aging work force or people that left the nuclear industry.  

This is just my naïve small view opinion.  

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Hi profengmen!

With regards to my questions 2 and 3, I have to agree with metengr who started the thread:

Engineering Apprenticeship
Thread730-99415

He states:

"One improvement that I would like to see with the engineering profession, is a mandatory requirement for engineering apprenticeship.

Now metengr and I have points we disagree on, but if you scroll up to the beginning of this thread you will see that he has 20 years experience.  He also has received 105 TipMaster of the week votes since he joined this forum in October of 2003 (check out his profile).  I think he may know a thing or two.

One other piece of advice I will give to any high school students considering engineering: rent the movie "Private Benjamin" before you talk to any "professional" counsellors who are paid university employees.

Have a good night everyone!

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

QCE:

You argue that there's no difference between "95 and 96% employment".  The sample size in this case was very large, but let's take that as being correct.  Why would it be acceptable for the employment situation for graduates of engineering, a professional program, to be even approximately EQUAL to the employment situation for the average university graduate?

The key is the UNEMPLOYMENT rate.  These numbers are more sensitive to the hypothesis you're testing- the "employment" numbers are damped by a systematic factor- the fact that most Canadians, much less most university-educated Canadians, are indeed working for a living.

Even more key and harder to argue with are the RATIOS of unemployment rates amongst graduates of various professional programs.  Have a look at that report, and I challenge you to find a professional program which has an unemployment rate even HALF what it is currently for engineers.  Most professional programs have 0-1% unemployment after two years, while ours is over 5%.

I'm not advocating that we shut down the engineering schools and close the borders until the current over-supply of engineers are fully employed- that's a rights issue and a total non-starter for many reasons including the one you've mentioned.  But clearly, increasing engineering school enrollments and recruitment of engineers for immigration to Canada are at best stupid given our current supply situation.

What I am advocating is the collection and dissemination of unbiased data on this issue- and an active countering of the media myth about the shortage of engineers with this data.  Every prospective grad and immigrant to our profession should be able to make their decision whether or not to enter our profession on the basis of sound data.  Right now, most engineering immigrants to Canada come expecting to be snapped up by a thirsty job market, only to discover that there's no engineering opportunity for them when they arrive- they quite rightly feel that they've been lured here and then ripped off.  Young women who were recruited to the profession and graduate to find no job prospects in engineering even six months after graduation, rightly feel that they were misled.  

This myth of the shortage of engineers has to STOP- and if we engineers don't get the message ourselves, can we expect the rest of society to figure this one out on their own.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

moltenmetal:

Well put!  We will not have any success as a profession advocating radical changes, but making known the reality of the situation might help the situation.  There are still the forces at work who like the oversupply of engineers, but unfortunately they will always be there.  I wonder why this isn't a major agenda item for OSPE and CCPE?

Dave

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

3
So much pessimism.  I would recommend to any high school student who showed the interest to go into engineering.  He can always change majors to something he is more interested in, but probably can't switch into engineering very easily.  An engineering degree also is the best one you can graduate with, it opens many more doors then other degrees, that is if we are not too narrow minded in what we are willing to do.  My wife did exactly that, she graduated as a chemical engineer and went into computers and is doing very well.  She is willing to travel to the customer site for testing and commissioning, so is much more valuable then the developers, whose jobs are being sent to India.  She will never have to worry about her job being outsourced.  There is also the small matter of all the baby boomers retiring in the next few years.  There will be a shortage of all jobs soon.  My dad's company is a good example.  They have not hired for years and when they were bought out, 8 out of 12 engineers took early retirement.  I think that is going to happen very soon with alot of companies.  Without immigration or outsourcing, many companies are not going to be able to hire enough employees.  

The job maket here is doing great, it has rebounded very nicely the past few months.  I don't consider now any different then when I graduated in 1990.  The market rebounded then and it will now.  Engineering students are always at a disadvantage since they are making a bet on where the job market will be in 4-5 years.  Nobody can predict that.  Do what you enjoy and the money will follow.

Saying there is a shortage or oversupply of engineers needs to be qualified.  Which engineering jobs?  To me, a civil engineers job might as well be an accountant, I am equally not qualified for either.  When Civil jobs are booming, then it stands to reason that other segments of the engineering job market may not be.  Over time, it all works itself out.  If you don't like the prospects of your chosen field, then get the experience that makes you stand out.

I don't agree with the mandatory apprenticeship.  If the student has the drive to do it, then great for him, but I don't think the students should be forced into it.  Besides the companies don't want to do it.  If we want to make the engineering profession more respectable, then certification needs to be mandatory, such as each graduating senior needs to pass the EIT to get his degree.  This will help reduce the number of qualified engineers since the passing rate is relatively low.  Too many companies are lax with what they consider an engineer, the last company I worked for gave the title of Process Engineer to someone with only a business degree and called the service techs, without any college, engineers.  Until something is done about that, companies will hire anyone they choose and call them an engineer, resulting in a decline in our salaries and respect.

Mike Bensema
www.dutchmenservices.com

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

We engineers often talk about how useful the engineering degree is as a stepping stone to other work.  For some people that's undoubtedly true- and for some, it's even by choice!  Engineers do make good patent lawyers, medical researchers etc. with extra training- and some can fall back on jobs like computer programming or even the trades.  But justifying an engineering education on that basis is the "new liberal arts" approach to what was, is and SHOULD BE a professional education in its own right.  In Canada, all the data I've seen demonstrates that engineering is unique amongst self-regulating professions in regard to the terrible job prospects for its grads in their own field of study.  And it's wasteful of our collective resources to train and import more engineers than our workforce can use- it serves nobody's interests except those of the employers of engineers.

Ask the kids in 1st year engineering whether they'd still be there if they thought they'd have a tough time finding a job as an engineer when they graduate!

If we actually feel that way, we should be broadcasting this message from the rooftops of the universities: "Hey, guys- forget about this being a professional education or actual job training- when you've put in your four years of suffering and debt accumulation, be prepared to find work doing something else or go back to school to be trained for something more likely to get you a decent job".  To pretend otherwise is disingenuous at best.

As to the assertion that things are no worse now than they were in 1990- think again.  I graduated in '90 and entered the job market in '91 after I finished my Master's.  That year, I was one of 6,800 engineering grads in Canada, looking for work with roughly 1,300 engineering immigrants.  And '91 was a much tougher job market than '90 was.  There was certainly no shortage of engineers in either year.

Fast forward to 2001:  ~8,700 Canadian eng grads, looking for work with ~15,800 engineering immigrants!

Canada's engineering school enrollment matched our country's GDP and overall Canadian jobs growth over the period (~17-20% each), while engineering immigration increased TWELVE FOLD and total number of engineers entering the workforce per year grew THREE-FOLD.

Input minus output equals accumulation!

... and yes, this IS on OSPE's agenda as a major issue.  But the organization is so poorly funded that it can't do much about it- though it's doing what it can to get the message out.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Well put moltenmetal!

I would also caution students who think they can just give engineering a try, and if it does not work out easily transfer into another field.  Check out the thread:

To teach or not to teach??
Thread731-93283

There you will see that unemployed engineers cannot fall back on a career teaching at a High School level.  In some cases engineers will receive NO credit for any of the math or physics courses they took as part of their engineering program.  (However, I do know of several math, physics and computer science majors who were able to transfer credits into an engineering program.)

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Hi moltenmetal!

I would like to thank you for providing a link to the valuable survey:

http://www.cou.on.ca/publications/2003%20Graduate%20Survey.pdf

It is so useful, I think you have justly earned your place at the top of the MVP list.  My only complaint about the survey is that it deals only with Ontario grads, and not Canada as a whole.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I know of several math, physics and computer science majors who were able to transfer into an engineering program.  The survey shows that job opportunities in these fields are poorer than in engineering, which explains the migration.

I also find it interesting that while Law grads fare better than engineers in the first 6 months, at the two year mark they are worse off.  My guess is that this is due to some Law grads failing to pass the Bar.

Do you know if similar surveys exist tracking employment of graduates from technical institutes?

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Thank you for your latest post. It was informative and presented facts. What this thread needs is facts. Ergo, you get a star. I'm from the U.S., but we face a similar employment situation.

The statistics I would like to see (if anyone has them) is unemployment or under-employment of engineers. Jobs are easier to get when you're young and relatively low paid. Also, younger people are more enthusiastic and more easily conned, layoffs and stagnant salaries tend to dampen enthusiasm and increase skepticism.

For a pessimistic and humorous treatment of engineering employment go to Career Guide for Engineers and Computer Scientists or http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/ A quote from this website which I find pertinent is “We are all migrant workers in the data fields...”

From my experience, when an engineer gets older and reaches a higher pay level, he is likely pushed out of an organization in favor of a younger (cheaper) employee. Following his or her expulsion and if the engineer is over 50, the engineer typically accepts a lower paid position and remains under-employed until retirement. Also, retirement generally comes when he cannot find another engineering job and refuses to work at a fast food restaurant. Some engineers still enjoy a traditional career followed by retirement but this situation is becoming rare for the typical engineer.

The common “tuity-fruity” response is that an engineer must constantly increase his skills and remain current. A prudent engineer realizes that even if he remains current, there is a maximum skill set that any particular engineering job requires. To possess multiple skill sets and to be able to do many different jobs may increase employment flexibility slightly, but an employer will only pay for the specific skill set he needs. A glut of engineers reduces engineering services to a commodity market and in a commodity market price, and only price, govern.

I have a problem with people who present engineering in an optimistic but unrealistic manner. Showing a high school kid the CNN Tower or the Golden Gate Bridge and telling him that, if he becomes an engineer, he will design structures of this magnitude is less than totally honest. Planning a career on such information is tantamount to gambling with the same odds of payoff. You might as well him that he can grow up to become president of the United States (or Prime Minister of Canada). It is possible but not very likely.

A very, very realistic presentation of the engineering situation is given in a book “ The Soul of a New Machine” by Tracy Kidder. This book should be required reading the first semester of any engineering education. It presents engineering in a realistic light. The book presents a true story.  Data General Corp. enters into a “crunch” program to catch up to and exceed a new line of computers introduced by Digital Equipment Corp. Data General's survival depends on the success of this project. Following a truly heroic effort by the engineering staff, management and marketing take control the product and the engineers are quickly pushed out. You feel their pain. They save the company and all they get is a paycheck. They weren’t even paid for overtime!!!! If you’re in computers or software, you will identify with this book!!!! I did.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Please me for entering back-to-back posts but I just found an interesting site concerning the emploment of older software engineers. It deals only with software engineers, but maybe it can be extrapolated to engineering in general. I think it can.

The article is “Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage” which was given as Testimony to the U.S. House Judiciary Committee by Dr. Norman Matloff . The link is:
 http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html#faq9

It is very interesting.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Hi dannym!

Two excellent posts, I wish I could give you more stars.

The Pulitzer Prize-Winner "Soul of a New Machine" was first published in 1981.  I wonder what became of the young engineers who worked on the project?  Perhaps Tracy Kidder could do an update?

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Hi metengr!

Thanks for the link, the study presented there is an excellent source on this issue, and even touches on the effect of productivity gains.

But, would you not now agree that your friend's kid (especially if he has no special interest in engineering) should definitely explore OTHER careers?

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

(OP)
Lorenz;
My friends kid will do what he desires regardless of my input. Like this kid, I have two daughters both attending the University of IL. Figure on most college students changing their majors about 3 times, on average. With that said, my older daughter is studying to become a Speech Pathologist, the younger daughter is undeclared, but leaning toward history/law. All I want is for these two kids to find themselves professional jobs and fend for themselves.

As for me, I am very fortunate - I have my health, and am gainfully employed as an engineer.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Hello All,
  I've been watching this post with interest over the past couple of days, especially to the comments regarding the power side. I have worked in the power industry for over the past ten years, albeit a lonely designer, but in the industry never the less. I was laid off for the second time in my career in the end of June, and have been looking for work ever since. I was in substation transmission and distribution for the past three years, and as far as new jobs in the midwest they are few and far betweem. In regards to the amount of work on the Nuclear side, it seems that most of the current work is involved in the security end of things. I wish I could be more optomistic, but it doesn't look like there's anything on the radar screen. The three major engineering firms in Chicago that specialize in power are pretty much in the same boat.

  In regards to the decrease in the colleges, I think its in response to the fact that alot of the jobs are already being off-shored and the students realize that. It's a shame that this country had already off-shore the manufacturing jobs that once kept the country employed, and is now starting to off-shore the engineering end. I think the srvice industy will be the only one left with any stability in the future. That is if everyone still has a job to afford them....hopefully things will get better after November...
      Don

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Hi cudaracer!
Thanks for sharing your first-hand observations on the power industry.  Hope things turn around for you.


metengr:  
This time I gave you star.

To All Who participated in this thread:
I hope we all either find happiness in the fields we studied, or if that's not to be, perhaps we may find greater success in fields we rejected back in our High School days.  

I'll leave you with a quote from my favorite book Horse Sense by Al Ries and Jack Trout:

"Ray Kroc was 51 years old before he saw his first McDonald's restaurant. Harvey Mackay was 54 before he wrote his first book.  Harlan Sanders was 65 before he sold his first Kentucky Fried Chicken franchise.

Success knows no age"


Good Luck to Us All!

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

How is all of this any different then any other career?  Old engineers are not the only ones forced out of a company for younger blood.

What should the high school student wanting to major in a technical field study if you think engineering is too overcrowded and the job prospects poor?  Physics?  Well, many of the lower level jobs I see posted around here want any technical degree for an engineering position.  If fact, a good friend graduated with a physics degree and is the engineering manager of his company.  What is the solution then?  Steer everyone into acounting?

As to the comments about increasing your skills to stay employed, it's not your skills, it's the value to the company that is important.  A salesman proves his value all the time based on how many sales he makes, an engineer is a cost until proven otherwise.  How many engineers do you know that communicate their value to the company, or even keep track of it?  

I maintain my position, I will always recommend an engineering education to someone who has the interest in it.  Even if the field is more competitive then before and the salaries are not as good as they used to be, it still is better then a field you don't enjoy.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

mbensema:

As I've said before, there will always be a place in our profession for those who love it.  What I disagree with is trying to promote the profession by recruiting more people to it- that's a counter-productive exercise for sure.

A student with a technical inclination and grades good enough to get into an engineering program here in Canada has lots of options open to them.  If they don't know what an engineer is, or have no particular inclination toward applied science, they need not study engineering- there are lots of other things they can study without adding to the ranks of a profession with a miserable over-supply situation and less than average job prospects for its graduates!

Here in Canada, students pay only about 25% of the full cost of their education.  I don't see the sense for our society to subsidize a particular professional education for more people than the job market can use, such that they need to go back to school for yet more subsidized education to find gainful employment.

As far as being "greyed" out of a job, this is a particular problem in engineering.  It happens because we let it happen- it happens because of over-supply relative to demand.  Who can blame an employer for replacing expensive help with cheaper help when there are thousands knocking on the door looking for a job?  I've never met a doctor who was greyed out of a job, and last time I checked, there's a fair bit of technological advancement in that field to keep track of too.

As far as calculating one's value to one's employer, we agree 100%.  Engineers are extraordinarily under-valued because they fail to do just that.  As a project manager for my firm, I KNOW in dollars and cents exactly what I'm worth to the company, and am not afraid to use that fact when negotiating salary.  I recommend that every engineer figure out their value double-quick, and if it can't be determined in their particular job I recommend they consider finding another where that value can be more easily established- before your employer forces your hand.

What annoys me so much is the professional prima donnas out there who view engineering as some kind of noble calling which is somehow above and beyond economic reality.  Members of professions like ours who generate tremendous value and wealth for society DESERVE proper compensation for their effort.  We accept responsibilities of self-regulation as a profession, and in return for that voluntary acceptance of a duty of care for the non-engineering public, we are ENTITLED to certain rights.  These include a restricted area of practice, and the ability to choose who (and how many) we accept as members.

Here in Canada, the prima donnas among us are constantly reminding us of our public responsibility and ever trying to increase the standards to which we hold ourselves accountable- but they do NOTHING to expand our restricted area of practice.  In fact, they do precious little to defend the areas of practice we already hold from encroachment from non-professionals and non-engineers.  The other professions don't suffer from this stupidity- they know which side their bread is buttered on.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Hi mbensema!

You ask:

"How is all of this any different then any other career?"

Well if you check the survey provided by moltenmetal:

http://www.cou.on.ca/publications/2003%20Graduate%20Survey.pdf

you will see that in fields like medicine, dentistry, pharmacy, veterinary medecine etc. it IS different.  

That is because these fields have regulated themselves so that are REAL professions.  Naive High School students enroll in engineering under the illusion that they will have a lifestyle more or less equivalent to other professions, but many will not (and future prospects for first world engineers are worse than ever before).

Also, you state:

"Even if the field is more competitive then before and the salaries are not as good as they used to be, it still is better then a field you don't enjoy.".

The problem here was pointed out in one of dannym's posts:

"I have a problem with people who present engineering in an optimistic but unrealistic manner. Showing a high school kid the CNN Tower or the Golden Gate Bridge and telling him that, if he becomes an engineer, he will design structures of this magnitude is less than totally honest."

So when you encourage High School students to study engineering, are you presenting only the best cases?  I know of one electrical engineer who works all day using FEM software to design distribution transformers, and another who drives around in a truck all day performing turns ratio tests and taking oil samples from transformers.  The first is happy, the second says: "I went to university for this?"

This is why I think only co-op engineering programs should be accredited.  It gives students an early exposure to what common engineering jobs are really like, and they can switch fields before getting in to deep if they find they have been "oversold."

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Minor correction:  that pointy product of Toronto structural engineering brilliance you're referring to is the Canadian National tower, not the CNN tower- it has nothing whatsoever to do with that particular American news organ.  It stands on Canadian National Railroad property and I believe they were a major initial investor.

Lorentz:  I agree completely about co-op education.  Essential for engineers, particularly those who often go straight from school into the consulting business (something else I feel should be strongly discouraged).

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Hi moltenmetal!

Your last post raised another scary aspect about how the engineering profession is regulated i.e. students going straight from school into the consulting business.

Have you reviewed the thread:

"Reference amnesty" for engineers in industry seeking PE licensure
Thread731-92468

and seen how references seem to be given to complete strangers?  And also how the regulating boards make no attempt to verify them?

In the thread on math it became generally acknowledged that professors don't really teach engineering.  Combine that with the thread on references, and you have got to wonder who is protecting the public?

I'm afraid the stage is being set for a disaster.  Some contractor will cut costs by hiring a cheap recent grad who has a stamp but no real experience, and this "engineer" will produce an unsafe design.  If something like this occurs, I hope the lawyers sue everyone from the rookie engineer, to the board that gave him his stamp, the references who vouched for him, and all the way back to the university that gave him his degree.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

When I was about to graduate from college I spoke with one of my professors that I had great respect for.  I told him that I wanted to go into field engineering - working directly on construction sites.  He strongly recommended that I find a position with a firm where I would be working for two years at a drafting table so that I would learn how things fit together.  I followed his advice and I am glad that I did.  Had I gone directly into construction I never would have been able to become a consulting engineer.

By the way here in the "states" before one can become licensed, a minimum of four years of (acceptable)experience under the direct supervision of a licensed engineer in one's specific discipline is required before one can take the corresponding engineering license exam.  I think that works.

I also think that much of what our collective complaints are about relates to a lack of enforcement by ourselves, the state registration boards regarding poor quality engineering.  Some of this is based on watered down course work, some of it is due to the laws of supply and demand - currently there are too many engineers that are way more productive than their counterparts of twenty years ago in the market; coupled with the public perception that if something or some service is advertised its competitor is equal so that the only way to differentiate is to go by the price.  Just check out the never ending supply of advertisements from the local stores and the advertisements on the television.  What catches the public's attention: special sales.  Who has the lowest prices.  Our jobs and that of our professional societies, in my opinion, should be to elaborate, sell if you will, our qualities and the advantages to qualification based selection of our services.  Not prices.  Given an adequate amount of time and compensation we can most often save our clients the costs of our fees by saving them money in either up-front costs of construction and/or the life cycle costs of the product. As the saying has been made pick (only) two: fast, inexpensive, quality.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Lorentz, I think the medical doctor comparison is a bit of a stretch.  In my years as an engineer, I have never and probably will never consider myself the professional equivalent of someone required to complete med school and residency before becoming an MD.  A Pharmacist is closer to an engineer, but these positions require certification.  An engineer does not need an EIT or PE to be an engineer, you don't even need an engineering degree in America to be an engineer.  

Molten, your politicians really screwed you with the immigration problem.  I worked in Toronto for a year on a project (and know what you are competing against) and I don't envy your situation.  

As to the boards being more lenient in the references for the PE exam, I think they realize the references have less value then they did in the past.  PEs in industry have become a bit of the "old boys club" and if they like you, will help you any way they can to assist you in getting your PE.  A former manager gave me alot of advise on how to word the application to make it more likely to get approved and things to avoid as red flags.  I'm not as worried about the lower application standards as I am of the leniency on dealing with violations.  

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Hi mbensema!

For my slant on the medical doctor comparison, see my 2nd June 15 post in the thread:

How much math(s) do we really /need/ to learn?
Thread730-96797

We may actually have some common ground here, but my interpretation is different.

You will note that you are now the proud possessor of a 2nd star.  I gave you the 2nd one for your comment:

"PEs in industry have become a bit of the "old boys club" and if they like you, will help you any way they can to assist you in getting your PE."

The subject of an "old boys club" is often taboo, but it crops up in most human activities.  It is actually the main reason for my question 1. in my July 17 post.  To repeat it:

"1. Do you know a successful engineer who is willing to mentor you after you graduate?  If the answer is no, that's strike one."

What I'm trying to do here, is to make a young person realize that not all fields are open to outsiders.  Someone with no connections to the field of engineering may have a rough time landing their first job after graduation, which may finish their career before it starts.

I have reason to believe the situation is even worse in the field of Law, and I think this is why many young people succeed in getting their Law degree but fail to become lawyers.

The big problem, is that people employed in the education industry will adamantly deny there is any such thing as an "old boys club" since admitting it might lead to a loss of tuition.  As pmkPE observed:

"College is BIG Business!"

I repeat that I would not recommend engineering to any young person who does not have a close personal connection to someone who is already a successful engineer.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Lorentz:  that's going a bit too far in my view.  If you have co-op experience in university, you can make it without mentorship or connections in industry.  The over-supply situation makes it far harder for sure, and connections always help, but there's been no "old boys club" preventing me or others I've known from getting work.  And I guarantee I'm not part of any old boys network myself!

We agree that without co-op experience, landing a first job without connections in this job market is very difficult.  But it's not because of some "old boys network"- it's because of over-supply relative to demand.  There's no impetus for firms to take a risk on untried immigrants or recent grads when there are numerous well-qualified and experienced people knocking daily on their doors.

There's a difference between nepotism and social networking.  People hire others they know because it represents a lower hire risk than picking someone from off the street.  It's human nature, not a particular attribute of our profession versus others.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Hi moltenmetal!

I'm not saying that it's impossible for someone to succeed in engineering (or law etc.) without connections, I know of several people who have.

What I am saying is that there will be so few good engineering job openings for new grads that I would not recommend engineering to any young person who is not one of the "old boys".

There are a lot of "token" engineering jobs that are pure drudgery.  These are filled by people with degrees for "public relations" reasons and they are usually avoided by people who are "old boys" and who know the score.

I think that are enough "old boys" to avoid any serious shortage of engineers, so my advice to young people stands.

Guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

My "old boys network" comment was meant only for getting the PE and not about getting the first job.  Some people without the proper experience will get glowing recommendations simply because coworkers have it and want you as part of the club.  As a mechanical engineer, I never thought much about getting the PE since I really don't need it, but with some companies hiring non engineers for engineering positions, it will help distingish an engineer from a technician with an engineering title.  My group of engineering friends are getting the certification pretty much solely for this reason and are using each other for references, hence the "old boys club"

Lorentz, you have a very good point about the best jobs going to those who have the connections.  Networking of course helps anyone in any field, but is not to mean that you can't get a good job without it.  I think many of the recent grads are under the mistaken impression that their grades speak for themselves and don't fully understand the value of networking.

aresrope, I completely agree with you.  Anyone who askes me about going into engineering gets a fair and honest advice about what they may be doing upon graduation, but they do not get any predictions of the future.  I went Aerospace Engineering during the end of the cold war and by time I graduated, the market had completely collasped.  I am now working in the wastewater process equipment market and don't regret how anything turned out.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Hello All!

Some interesting posts today!  For example:

"Anyone dispensing career advice should never dissuade someone from persuing their interests, regardless of how limited they may see the field. Especially since these know-it-alls have no idea whatsoever what the job market will be like by the time they graduate. In fact, unless you have a crystal ball, the only advice you should give someone is how they may go about their studies, plan their career, good schools, etc.."

While it is true, I don't have a crystal ball, I wouldn't say I "have no idea whatsoever what the job market will be like by the time they graduate."  I have a couple of ideas on that.

First, thanks to metengr who provided the wonderful link:

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issueguide_offshoring_faq

I know that:

India is adding about twice as many college graduates to its workforce per year as the United States (1.2 million in the United States versus 2.5 million in India ). Of these Indian graduates, 250,000 earned engineering degrees, compared to 70,000 bachelor's degrees in engineering awarded here. Furthermore, the 2003 entering class for Indian engineers is reported to be 375,000, a large jump that suggests the Indian population is responding to expectations of the global market's forthcoming demand in this field.

And second, I know that my company prefers NOT to hire new graduates, and we have no shortage of applications from experienced people looking for work.

Now when I put these two together, how could I in good conscience advise a young person to study engineering?  I know 4 years from now there will be a huge number of graduates from India (and how many from other third world countries?), and I know my company would not be hiring this person.  If they came to me 4 years from now out of work and in debt, what could I tell them?

I still think that dannym provided the best advice of all in his original post of the thread:

Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs
Thread730-63828

he states there:

"I don't believe that a person is born an engineer and will only be happy if they become an engineer. Obviously, if current trends continue, a lot of engineers are going to have to seek happiness in another career if they want to earn a living."

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Note India has 4 times the population of the states.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Hi QCE,

The fact that India's population is larger is not the main reasons they are producing so many engineering grads.  It is because they anticipate that their graduates will be employed on many projects that were formerly done by 1st world engineers.

Note the last part of my excerpt:

"Furthermore, the 2003 entering class for Indian engineers is reported to be 375,000, a large jump that suggests the Indian population is responding to expectations of the global market's forthcoming demand in this field."

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Gentlemen,

Quite the interesting forum you have here.  Makes for some very enlightining reading.  
In my short experience in the engineering industry I have noticed several things:
1.  Demand for intermediate experienced engineers is high.  Particularly, in the fields of geotechnical and hydrogeology.
2.  Willingness to relocate increases job prospects.
3.  Employers, at least the ones that I have dealt with, are starved for North American trained engineers with 4-5 years experience and are responding by increasing wages.
4.  Business developement skills are vital, perhaps, even more important than technical expertise.  

I welcome your comments.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

My company is also having a hard time finding experienced engineers in the power industry (electrical and mechanical).  We put out 2 postings and did not even get 1 professional engineer apply.

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Hello gillball and QCE!

Nice to hear some good news!

Now the question is, since recruiting is forbidden in this forum, how does an unemployed engineer contact either of you?

Suggestions anyone?

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Our new postings will be going out soon and we will be posting on Monster.com this time on top of our other regular posting spots.

That is all I will say here.

I will stress that gillball made a good point about willingness to relocate.  I understand that it is not always easy but it is a big boost to your job prospects.

I thought some of you may be interested in the following link:
http://www.apeg.bc.ca/library/compsurvey/employ_comp_survey_2002.pdf

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

We're in the same boat. I think we're looking for 140 experienced, degreed, industry exempt, automotive engineers in the next two years. At a rough guess 80% of them will come from overseas. I'd rather take on recent graduates and train them up, but hey, I don't make the big decisions. Certainly cost-wise I can see the advantage in buying experience.

I think most of the doom and gloom comes from engineers who are unwilling to relocate, since I can think of at least four countries which are recruiting internationally for experienced automotive engineers - Malaysia, Korea, Australia, and China, and I'm pretty sure India, Taiwan, Thailand and the Phillipines would also be looking.

By the way I'm not recruiting. If you haven't seen our ads then you aren't in the target audience.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Fewer Engineers/More Work

Hello All!

GregLocock raises an important point that I would like to comment on.  He states:

"I think most of the doom and gloom comes from engineers who are unwilling to relocate, since I can think of at least four countries which are recruiting internationally for experienced automotive engineers..."

I put the word "experienced" in bold because this is often the catch 22 that trips up young people just entering their fields.  Many new grads would love to relocate, but they have little to offer prospective employers in other geographic locations.

I have known several experienced engineers who relocated; in some cases it was their own idea, in others down-sizing forced them to look for new employment.  Fortunately, their experience had provided them with a marketable skill.

In an earlier post I pointed out that there are only 4 veterinary schools in all of Canada, so young people who want to become veterinarians have no choice but to travel to one of these schools for their training (unless they were lucky enough to be born in one of the 4 cities where these schools are located).  

I would also suggest, that a young person intent on engineering as a career, should strongly consider taking their education at a school with a co-op program, even if it means they must sacrifice the convenience of studying at at a local school.  I believe that this would provide them with a significant edge over grads from non co-op programs.

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