Releasing Structural Calculations
Releasing Structural Calculations
(OP)
We were working on a rather large commercial project. The developer was having trouble obtaining financing and decided to terminate our contract when the design was 50 to 75% complete. The footing design had received State approval but only some excavations were actually completed.
We made an agreement with the Owner to provide him our incomplete drawings. Another Architect is now requesting our structural calculations.
The project was in a state of flux at that the time we were told to stop work. The footings were approved by the State but I have no control over any future changes that the Architect may make. I know of some changes that were talked about but were never completed on the drawings or in the calculations since our contract was terminated. The Architect is stating that they only want them as a starting point.
I think maybe he wants to finish up our job without hiring a structural engineer or at least minimizing his structural fee by using our calcs. If I was starting on this project, I would prefer not to have anyone's calcs and I would start from scratch.
Additionally, I am notifying the State, in writing, that I am no longer the EOR. The foundations should be re-reviewed as a brand new project, since the design was incomplete at the time the foundation permit was issued and is now under the control of a different design team. There will inevitably be architectural/mechanical changes in the design from where we finished up at.
I am leaning hard toward telling him "No", we will not release them.
Any comments or suggestions?
We made an agreement with the Owner to provide him our incomplete drawings. Another Architect is now requesting our structural calculations.
The project was in a state of flux at that the time we were told to stop work. The footings were approved by the State but I have no control over any future changes that the Architect may make. I know of some changes that were talked about but were never completed on the drawings or in the calculations since our contract was terminated. The Architect is stating that they only want them as a starting point.
I think maybe he wants to finish up our job without hiring a structural engineer or at least minimizing his structural fee by using our calcs. If I was starting on this project, I would prefer not to have anyone's calcs and I would start from scratch.
Additionally, I am notifying the State, in writing, that I am no longer the EOR. The foundations should be re-reviewed as a brand new project, since the design was incomplete at the time the foundation permit was issued and is now under the control of a different design team. There will inevitably be architectural/mechanical changes in the design from where we finished up at.
I am leaning hard toward telling him "No", we will not release them.
Any comments or suggestions?






RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
Architects also spell trouble to me, at least mot of them (I do not want to hear it from architect lovers in this forum, I am assuming there are none-LOL). Most architects are not versed in true structural engineering. I have seen them with gross misuse of details and concepts. Actually I do not do business with architects who pretend to be SE. I have gotten calls from them to bail them out and I refused to do so.
I would inform the state of the situation.
Did you get paid for your work? This may have legal implications. In my humble opinion, I think calculations are tools of the trade. There are many colleagues who will never give calculations even if they lost the business/deal!
Stand firm. Do not give them away, if they use them and something goes wrong, you will find yourself in middle of legal fiasco. When things go wrong, lawyers want to drag as many people in as they can. The one with deep pockets or insurance will wind up paying because it is cheaper than litigating the case.
Welcome to free society.
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
But what I call the front-end stuff, as described above, is pretty harmless and at least would provide the architect with the general load assumptions to "start with".
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
I am not sure about the issue of completing drawings started by another firm. How does the Board of Regulation and Licensing look at that? Good question!
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
Using your initial designs as a guide, and even a kind of reverse check on their own designs is not unethical, and even can be a great help to cross check their own designs.
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
The foundations were approved by the State to begin early construction while the remainder of the structure and architectural design was completed (similar to fast track). We all know that changes happen, therefore, the new EOR should really do his own calcs and design. I know that he will probably wind up using many of our details.
We did not release drawings without the Preliminary, Not for Construction stamp.
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
I'd say no, do not give them your calculations. They can hire you to do the job if they want. Otherwise, they're on their own. Like JAE said, the front-end stuff shouldnt be much of a problem. That stuff anyone can get out of the building code anyway. If the architect wants to reverse engineer your footing designs, then let him/her. Then again, can an architect really do engineering? I think not.
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
I heard of this being done here in Florida on large projects. The two projects that I am aware of, both had pile foundations. The engineers actually do the calculations and run column loads, shear wall loads and obtain a permit. Otherwise, projects will suffer delays if construction has to wait on the complete design of large projects.
One must admit that making changes would be more expensive if mistakes or additional loads come to light after the fat. I guess it is all about risk. The design engineer would tend to build some beef in the design. That would be my guess.
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
"Early Footing & Foundation Permits". The building design has to be essentially complete (gravity & lateral), but the details may not be entirely done when you submit. It's just kind of a "fast track" approach.
I've had two projects in my career so far, Jike, that similar things have happened to me - in both cases, the job was halted midway, and we were paid under the condition that we give the Owner a set of our documents in the state where we left off. But less than a year later, they started up with new design teams, and the jobs were built probably using our stuff. (Pretty tough to prove).
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
On those 2 projects, did the documents that you gave the Owner, include structural calculations or just drawings and specs? Or copies of every document in every file folder?
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
Why can't he rehire you to finish the job if he has money for a new architect?
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
The process requires a permit application be accompanied with the foundation plans and calculations (just the foundation calculations).
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
In the first instance, it was only drawings and specs; it was a local project in the city where I live, and they later hired another A/E firm to complete the design. I guess they created their own stuff, since we never gave them our calculations. In the second case, the Owner asked for the entire file contents.
For case 2, we weren't exactly anxious to give it to him, since we sort of knew where he was going with it, but he started making noises like his attorney would call us if we didn't hand it over. He had paid his bill in full; we weighed our options and decided it wasn't worth fighting over. He was out of state, the project was in a third state, and we would never hear from him again. So, we first gave him unsigned drawings and specs, stamped "Preliminary - Not For Construction". He called back, and wanted our structural calculations. After a few heated phone calls and discussions with our attorney, we finally gave him that too. I'm sure he turned it over to some "plan stamper" near the project location to re-write in his own hand writing. At least we were no longer the EOR. We signed nothing, stamped nothing, and, as I recall, wrote him a letter that we were no longer EOR and would accept no liability for the project. About a year later, I heard from the original architect who we worked with. He knew someone who lived near the site, who told him that the new building was constructed, and looked pretty much the same as our original documents. Oh well! At least we were paid.
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
Please see FAQ731-376 for great suggestions on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora. See FAQ158-922 for recommendations regarding the question, "How Do You Evaluate Fill Settlement Beneath Structures?"
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
Today, since I'm now calling the shots, my approach would have been different, similar to what damstructural, Ron, and Focht3 describe...no calcs would ever have been released!
But then, hindsight is alwas 20-20.
RE: Releasing Structural Calculations
I have herad of some firms that once a project is completed(not exactly the same condition as this one but...), they actually destroy the calculations.
In my opinion calculations are work product....Your firm was paid (hopefully....) to provide draings for the project. That is what is used to construct the building, not your calculations....The contractor does not refer to page 46 for beam 3B21 to find out it is to be a W16x36......He looks at the third floor framing plan....he looks on the drawings.
LPPE, it was not uncommomn to issue a foundation plan based on tributary area calculations and approximate lateral load analysis. The owner assumes the risk if he makes changes during the design phgasde that impact the foundation.....It was also not uncommon to "bump up" footing sizes a bit (you calculate an 8x8....make it a 9x9 just in case) to compensate for the unknown.