article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
(OP)
<http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jun04/235522.asp>
Milwaukee city council votes to keep requirement that head of DPW has an engineering degree.
Milwaukee city council votes to keep requirement that head of DPW has an engineering degree.





RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
This rings true thru all of the disciplines. Actions like this demoralize the engineering degree and the importance of having an engineering degree. Understandable that most of the work must be administrative, but the head of the DPW should be qualified to at least understand and communicate with the DPW engineers on issues with bridges, roads, and waste disposal. The engineering degree shows that this person has one of the important credentials to do so. If the engineering degree was dropped as one of the requirements, it is another blow to the engineering disciplines.
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
I have to say that I disagree with the move entirely! As has been commented on in many other threads, often engineers don't make the best managers for a variety of reasons. These positions are much more political and broad-based than they were years ago, when the head of public works actually focused on public works projects.
As noted in the article:
"chief of staff Patrick Curley noted, however, that much of the department's focus, including trash pickup and forestry, is not tied to engineering and that some large cities, such as Boston and Chicago, do not have an engineering degree requirement."
In a high level position like this, I would think communication and negotiation skills and political savvy would be much more important, provided you have a good, well-qualified city engineer who can provide guidance when called upon. Do you want an engineer negotiating a labor dispute with garbage truck drivers? I don't. It's not "dumbing down" of the position if someone is smart in other (more aplicable?) ways.
It is naive to think that you must have an engineering degree to understand the fundamentals or implications of an engineering project.
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
Another Milwaukee-related engineering-management tidbit:
Harley-Davidson recently started requiring engineering managers to have a degree or pass the PE exam.
http://www.EsoxRepublic.com
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
Given that engineers are not exactly and endangered species, something we know from other threads, I would not have expected that they would have a shortage of suitable engineering qualified candidates. Indeed, they should probably insist on even higher engineering standards just to get the short list down.
This is the normal way of doing things. No candidates, you open up the requirements to include more. Too many candidates, you tighten up on the requirements or offer less money. Or both.
The article did not say that they had had problems finding candidates. I therefore tend to suspect an element of truth in "the Tick's" comment.
At the least, it isn't a smart politician who would open himself up to such suggestions. Actually, strike that last, most politicians seem impervious to such critisisms.
JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
Is Milwaukee city officials really against engineers? Sure seems like it….
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
Hg
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
"... We get into trouble when we put someone who "doesn't understand" in a position of power to make decisions over and above an engineer on technical matters."
I agree wholeheartedly. At the very least, the chief engineer working for the guy should have a means to veto the admin's decisions if human life/safety are at risk...
Look at the trouble NASA has had with "business" type managers running the space shuttle program.
As counter-argument to another point: an engineer manager can hire a negotiator to wrangle with the union. {Better yet, in my mind, he could decide to open the garbage hauling up for public bids... (ok, ok, he probably would break several laws, but hey! :)}
Would you trust a biz ed. major to know when he is over his head on technical matters?
Ben T
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
I work for a public agency. Nobody in my line of command higher than my boss's boss understands much about what I do--I'm a structural person in a land ruled by pavement people. If they really need to know, they ask. Couldn't a non-engineer ask too? They can read an executive summary as well as anyone else.
My gut feel, though, is that the agency head does need to be an engineer. First, they'll have a solid background in *some* area rather than none. And they'll at least have some small basis to comprehend the rest, even if it means casting back to undergraduate days--it'll be review rather than something completely new.
Hg
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
When the answer is given, how well will he understand?
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
For example, as far as I know wrt the fatal Denver bridge collapse, the Contractor wasn't required by the DOT to submit an erection plan stamped by a PE. Lack of appropriate policy.
Regards
VOD
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
I just got through editing a 1000-page set of specifications. My field of expertise takes up maybe 80 pages of that book. People listened to my editorial advice when they wouldn't listen to tech writers because I was an engineer--but do I know any more about bulldozing or vehicle loop detectors than a technical writer would have? I really don't think so.
I'm not sure how good a parallel that is to the management case, but I think it's at least somewhat relevant.
Hg
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
That said, an engineer is more likely to have at least passing familiarity with various issue to know when to ask.
Not that engineers are immune either. My former boss and mentor-for-life keeps a small stack of ruined test specimens on his desk. I ruined them as a graduate student because I didn't know to ask. If anyone asks what they are, he tells them to ask me, and I have to fess up all over again. It's very effective.
Hg
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
I now work for a boss who is an engineer, and a company president who is an engineer; when I tell them I know something (and can back it up with analyses, test data, or a really clever lie) they will usually listen. If it breaks, it's still probably time to go job hunting, but at least it's my own damn fault.
Yes, engineers are subject to hubris too, and can make bad decisions just as fatal to people as managers can. But we're trained not to be inordinately confident in our own decision making abilities, especially in the absence of sound analysis and data, can you say the same of business school graduates? Professional engineers are required NOT to "sign off" or practise engineering in areas outside their expertise; can you say the same of a "professional manager"? Would you ride an airplane designed by managers, or would you rather ride one designed by people trained in the arts of engineering, and have at least a passing familiarity with the concept of metal fatigue?
... Hey, where'd this soap box come from? :)
Ben Trueblood
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
some nice points.
The problem with aircraft, as we have seen from too many accidents, is that managers get to manage the maintenance against cost criteria and not maintenance criteria. Then they crash. It isn't enough just to have engineers in a design role, engineers are vital anywhere engineering is involved, whether they are in charge or not... though being incharge is nice.
Incidentlly, being an engineer working for an engineering manager is nice but i worked for one once who knew squat about marketing and boy did he make some business damaging moves.
This brings us back around to what we all already know, you need the right person in the right job... and that isn't easy whatever they learened at school.
JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt
RE: article relating to engineering req's for mgmt