P&IDs, PFDs and what else?
P&IDs, PFDs and what else?
(OP)
I have previously asked about strip P&IDs vs. sheets and got the answer I wanted. However, most of the response I got was, as I can figure it out based on US standards and the petrochemical industry. Apparantly things are totally different in the paper industry! I was told that PFDs and P&IDs are a thing of the past, that I should get with the times and draw P&Cs. What are P&C's? Also, the scandinavians drew up their own standards (SSG standards) for simplified PFDs and PFDs. As I can figure out, their simplified PFDs are what I am used to as PFDs and their PFDs are "glorified" PFDs but are not P&IDs yet. They also took the ISA standards and changed them. I need to draw up new standards for the company for process engineering flow sheets. Should I stick with PFDs and P&IDs and if so, can someone please give me detailed definitions of both. Should interlocks be shown on P&IDs. Where do you draw the line? What is shown on the P&ID and what is shown on loop diagrams? Remember, we are an international company with mills in Africa, Europe and America. I can therefore not use OSHA as a reason why certain things should be on P&IDs as this only applies for the states and not for Africa and Europe.





RE: P&IDs, PFDs and what else?
Let's agree on one thing: This is about [b]safety[/] and correct, proper operation of processes. As such, I wouldn't give a hoot what Scandinavians, Africans, Frenchmen, or any other non-US agency or govenment entity thinks or believe. The above principles are universal and anyone who doesn't agree is definitely not of any intellectual importance. The above values are just as important to other countries as they are here in the USA. This is not a preference or an ego contest - it's about safe, efficient, and progressive engineering.
I spent more than 25 years traveling, designing, constructing, and operating plants in foreign countries under taxing and difficult conditions and I can state with experience that you will not fail to satisfy a foreign country's desires and wishes if you give priority to what you consider important:
1) safety of the individuals operating the process;
2) safety of all humans outside the process;
3) protection of all equipment;
4) detailed accurate data, calculations, and information over the process at all times;
5) detailed accurate data, calculations, and information on all changes done to the process
6) detailed accurate data on all chemicals and hazardous materials dealt within the process.
If you comply with the above basic guidelines, you will probably be complying with 99% of what all countries are striving for (& considerably more than what they presently obtain from existing processes in their domain).
Local "Standards" for types of diagrams and nomenclature (such as symbology, acronyms, etc.) are "Mickey Mouse", political or nationalistic ploys done by politicians or beaurocratic morons who don't know where to look for personal political gain. These things are minor and sometimes have to be complied with in order just to continue to do business in that country. France has a bad reputation for this kind of attitude - but it's of little or no importance in the engineering area. You will find that internationally, engineers always agree on common-sense and effective, practical controls. I've never found any difference in the attitudes of engineers from one country or another. We all think the same and we don't wear our nationalistic or political colors on our sleeves. We are practical and down-to-earth in resolving and controlling problems.
I am confident that your fellow engineers from other countries will agree with you on the basic control documents being the PFDs and the P&IDs.
Read my comments about the interlocks and the P&IDs in your other post in this forum.
I hope this helps.
Art Montemayor
Spring, TX
RE: P&IDs, PFDs and what else?
With all the mergers and acquisitions, a new problem arises with compy mandated standards. A plant that has excellent drawings that everyone who works there has to redraw them to satisfy some bureaucrat in the new owners home office isn't making the plant safer.
Listen to what operations want and apply published standards to meet their needs.
RE: P&IDs, PFDs and what else?
I currently work in the Paper Industry, as a process safety engineer. My work is for a "global" company. Art has spoke the gospel.
P&IDs are our "standard".
Don Coffman
RE: P&IDs, PFDs and what else?
IS010628 1997 (E). Flow diagrams for process plants - General rules.
The standard is written more as a guideline rather than a proscriptive document. It covers PFD's and P&ID's.
It also references other standards with respect to the symbology that should be used.
Cheers,
NB
RE: P&IDs, PFDs and what else?
Anyway, I will continue my fight to upgrade and standardise drawings in our company. Thanks for the support.
RE: P&IDs, PFDs and what else?
I've seen PFD's and P&ID's for projects in the USA, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Venezuela, England, Sweeden, Isreal, Ghana, Korea, India, Bahrain, and Saudi Arabia just to name a few.
I realize that the pulp & paper industry differs from refining, but if it works for refiners all over the world, it should work for other process industries as well.
RE: P&IDs, PFDs and what else?
RE: P&IDs, PFDs and what else?
RE: P&IDs, PFDs and what else?
RE: P&IDs, PFDs and what else?
RE: P&IDs, PFDs and what else?
You are the first person that understands the difficulty we have in the pulp and paper industry. Plant engineers think nothing applies to them. They have not yet experienced the advantage of P&IDs and therefore think it is just another paperwork excercise.
Regards
Procman
RE: P&IDs, PFDs and what else?
RE: P&IDs, PFDs and what else?