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professional development hours
10

professional development hours

professional development hours

(OP)
New York has just started requiring PDH's (professional development hours)  How do people feel about this?

RE: professional development hours

I think it is an excellent idea. I use this to insist that I receive at least some company sponsored real training each year - if they want to employ professional engineers then they havethe responsibility that their skills remain current and improve.

How may hours are they suggesting? 80 is the norm in the UK and Australia.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: professional development hours

15 PDH hours per year is typical in most states that require continuing education.  It really ain't much!

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
www.tankindustry.com

RE: professional development hours

5
(OP)
The two of you are the first I've heard that are for it.  NY is requiring 12 pdh's per year.  I'm upset because most of the ways to get PDH'S require an outlay of money and if the company you work for doesn't financially support this effort than that's a lot of money out of someone's pocket.  Currently, I'm living in Missouri and fortunately I can take for free seminars at the University here but I'm not getting "solid knowledge" from them that helps in my job.  The purpose of PDH's is to gain knowledge to help in your job yet some of the classes that would aid that are not considered PDH's.

RE: professional development hours

3
I'm registered in 6 states, 3 of which require me to keep track of pdh's.  Two of them require 15 per year, one is 12 per year.

I keep involved with local chapters of professional organizations such as ACEC (American Council of Engineering Companies) and CASE (Council of American Structural Engineers).  I do Committee work for them, which allows me an automatic 2 pdh's per year per committee.  Them monthly meetings are usually breakfast or lunch meetings which oftentime have speakers on technical subjects.  For an hour's worth of attendance at breakfast or lunch (for which it is easy to make up the time), I can get 1 pdh per technical luncheon or breakfast attended.  Going to about a half dozen or more per year adds 6-8 pdh's to my slate for the cost of a breakfast or lunch - (you don't get that at Denny's or Perkins).  

My company sometimes will invite technical sales representatives to put on lunchtime seminars to our department on their product.  The rep's often will spring for box lunches or pizza, and give you their sales schpiel on their product and teach you new things about the industry in the process.  Result:  1 pdh per sales rep with a free lunch.

I'm very religious about documenting all of this, by the way, in case any of the states where I'm registered ever ask for a list of what I'm doing.  I keep a spreadsheet of the activity, dates, speaker's name, topic name, length of time of attendance, and pdh's earned (typically 1 pdh for hour of attendance).  If the organization gives out a certificate of attendance, even better.

Some of my colleagues also write papers for organizations or for submittal to technical magazines, for which you can also get pdh credit.

You don't have to lose a lot of work time or go bankrupt by paying for University sponsored events or Technical Organizations who are in the business of making money off poor engineers needing pdh's.  I think I've attended one such event in the past 3 years, and that was only because I thought I could learn something from the topic.  In that case, we made sure we got a group discount for attendance.

Hope this helps someone who needs the ideas for cheap pdh's.  Good luck.

RE: professional development hours

That's interesting. I've just checked and no longer have to sign a statement saying that I have completed X hours of CPD!

It always seemed to be promoted as a bit of a money-making scam to me, by the institution.

Nonetheless, it would seem odd NOT to have a plan for improving one's abilities. As a professional you don't need anyody elses approval of what constitutes development, I think reading an engineering book cover to cover could count. Or learning a new mathematical technique. Or a programming language. In fact anything that could be conceivably useful in your future career.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: professional development hours


I'm getting some of my PDHs from the self-study articles in Architectural Record magazine (Downloadable from the web). NYS accepts AIA units for engineering PDHs. NYS will accept half of the PDH requirements from these articles. The other half needs to be from "in person" seminars, courses, etc. Architectural Record charges $10 per article (1 PDH).

As far as how do I feel about the issue of mandatory continuing education? Its theoretically a good idea, but there's no way to mandate that an employer pays for it & gives time off for it, and this is a real problem.

RE: professional development hours

denoid & EddyC,
The way you describe the PDHs it seems as if what we do here on eng-tips would qualify for PDHs.  Although most of my time is spent as a "troll", I do pick-up some good info.

RE: professional development hours

Monkeydog:

Interesting thought!  

The only trick would be to be able to prove to the State Board of Registration of the state you're trying to convince:
1.  That Eng-tips.com represents authorized professionals in the subjects you're reading about;
2.  The number of hours you actually spent reading threads, and how you could prove it.

I'm all for it (I think Eng-tips.com provides a valuable source of ideas, discussion, & mentoring, even when I disagree with some of the responses I read).

If anyone can come up with a way to document our involvement for legitimate pdh's, go for it!

RE: professional development hours

But in NY, the provider of the training must be approved by NYS.  I doubt the sales reps are "approved" training providers.  Living in CA, it's going to be tough to maintain my NY PE, especially as I work for a small firm that will not pay for me to travel to training sessions.  I agree with the continuing education requirements, but I am not pleased with the restricitons NY placed upon how to count them.

RE: professional development hours

(OP)
Greenone, I too, have my registration in NY and live currently in Missouri.  I wrote to NY Dept/Ed and they said that taking seminars at my local University was o.k. as long as it was ABET accrediated.  I was worried about finding DPH's out-of-state that would be acceptable and affordable.  I am not happy with NY for their handling of PDH's at all.  You only get 9 hrs for writing an article for a professional publication.  The amount of time it takes to fully research and write one article is more than 9 hrs and is an important contribution to the industry and should be valued more.

RE: professional development hours

So far, none of the states where I'm registered that require pdh's ask for "pre-approval" of training speakers.  I suppose it could become a problem in the future if I get audited, but I think only if I try to apply it too loosely.  The sales reps we've had speaking to us at lunchtime seminars have all been licensed PE's and quite knowledgable in their particular product.  The sales products have all been things we use in our daily work.  I'd have to believe that would be more legitimate than me registering for a paid seminar on some product or design method I'd never use.  But then, I'm not on the Board of Registration, either.  I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, if ever.  

RE: professional development hours

Wow. I would stir them (and the membership) up pronto about this. Who, exactly, do they think they are? Write to your magazine, wring the board up, explain to them that this sort of marketing is completely unacceptable in a professional organisation.

There is, in my opinion, nothing particularly wrong in requiring a certain number of hours per year in professional development, but to decree that /they/ are the arbiters of what is acceptable is treating you like children.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: professional development hours

I have a question concerning PDH's.  PDH's were developed by the professional associations to make sure that engineers were kept on the cutting edge of technology.  So why is it that the engineers that really need to take note to this concept are the ones that struggle getting their yearly PDH's and the ones that really don't need to worry about PDH's never have any trouble?  Just an observation I've noticed over the past five years with colleagues I've worked with.  It just seems that "the good ones" always seem to have their nose in a book and are always learning, and the "not so good ones" seem take the easy courses like "Work Place Anger Management" that isn't benefitting their engineering knowledge, but rather just providing numbers they can put on their PDH's.  Maybe I need to take that anger management course, regardless engineering isn't just about the numbers, it's a life committment to learning.  I know we can all get busy with our work and careers and loose sight of the bigger picture, but try to take these PDH's seriously, they make us better engineers.  Find a course that excites you and take.  Who cares if the company pays or if you do, take it, you'll be a better engineer in the long run.  Do that five years running and you'll be an expert in your field.... I guarantee it!

RE: professional development hours

I think one problem here is: who decides what is acceptable?

My strong opinion is that burying my nose in a maths book and learning about Hamiltonians is PDH. So is learning a new programming language.

Obviously institutions that want to sell me lectures won't agree. I am quietly confident that learning about Hamiltonians and improving my programming skills will do far more for /my/ career than any number of lunchtime lectures on "Implications of XYZ legislation on your company" or whatever else they can knock out in a couple of days of hard research reading magazines and self help books.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: professional development hours

(OP)
Hi, this is Renee and I started this thread.  I agree with Dirtguy4. That's my argument against PDH's.  Good engineers don't need someone else telling them to keep current and build their skill level.  The so-so engineers will take the easy way out and take "fluff" classes to meet requirements.  Greg is correct, I'm studying different software programs that I need for my job, even if I was doing formal class study this won't count.

RE: professional development hours

I'm looking at the New Mexico Web page (which is pretty similar to a couple of other states that require PDH's that I've looked at) and they award credit for the following types of activities:
- Active participation in seminars, courses, in-house programs, workshops, training, professional conventions, correspondence or videotaped courses (1 hour=1PDH)
- Successful completion of college courses (1 semester hour=45 PDH, 1 quarter hour=30 PDH)
- Successful completion of courses offering CEU credit (1 CEU=10PDH)
- Teaching or instructing above courses/activities for the first time only (1 hour = 2 PDH)
- Authoring a published paper, article, or book (10 PDH)
- Active participation in professional and technical societies (each orginization, 2 PDH/year)
- Each patent (10 PDH)
- 1 yr subscriptoin to technical journal (1 PDH, max 2 PDH)
- 1 hour of literature review (1 PDH, max 6 PDH)
- Each civic or community activity (1 PDH, max 4 PDH)

The list has some qualifiers at the bottom, one that applies to the discussion above is "Presentations by Product/Equipment Vendors & Plant/Factory Tours are eligible only if:  - Presentations are of a technical nature and not just a sales demonstration; and - part of a formal training session; not normally obtained in the course of licensee's work".  That says pretty clearly that having a vendor bring in donuts and a tech speil is legitimate PDH's.
 
Seems like eng-tips would fit nicely into the next to last category, I'd document the time just like you do vehicle mileage - with a log.

This list seems to have enough latitude to allow anyone to persue professional development in the way that best fits their personal learning style and needs.  The requirement is 15 hours/year reported every other year.  In the last 6 months I've documented 31 PDH's.  Don't think 30 will be a problem.

Dirtguy4, the ones that go to "anger management" for PDH's are the guys that used Cliff Notes and asked to "borrow" your homework in college.  Other than the fact that you'll eventually be working for them, they aren't worthy of your consideration.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: professional development hours

Here in Texas, for my certification, I must attend 8 hours every FOUR years!  Fortunately, I teach the certification courses.  My daughter-in-law, an RN, must attend 40 hours every 2 years.  My other daughter-in-law, a physical therapist, its 32 hours for 2 years.  Neither of my sons (one an Army officer, the other two are computer programmers) have PDH requirements, although the Army has continuing training requirements.
In the US, there is a voluntary certification program for automotive technicians, and the testing is every 4 years with no CEU required, just the testing.
Franz

RE: professional development hours

I'm glad this post came up.  I'm in Utah and the state just started it's program last year.  It's 12 PDH/year.  Here's my questions-I got on the internet and found a website call http://www.pdhonline.org/.  Is it a legitimate place for PDHs?

And here's Utah's statement on PDH's:

Credit for qualified continuing professional education shall be recognized in accordance with the following:
(a) unlimited hours shall be recognized for professional education completed in blocks of time of not less than one hour in formally established classroom courses, seminars, or conferences.

Is an online course considered for this?  I called the state and they were pretty wishy washy and wouldn't answer the question.

Thanks
Chip Fuller

RE: professional development hours

Chip:

In my several years dealing with the pdh issue in various states, I've found that they all want to leave it up to you to make an educated guess what they will and will not ultimately accept.  Many times the staff of the registration board can't and won't answer your question about acceptable courses, because they don't want to be on the hook for making an incorrect interpretation of the law.

Bottom line is that none of the states have the funding or staff to chase down every registrant to see what they're doing with the pdh law.

Sorry to say, I've gone to making my own best guess on what is and isn't acceptable in each state I'm registered in.  If I happen to be one of the unfortunate individuals who gets audited in their lottery, I'll make my case then when they question the contents of what I list.  Typically, however, I try to be true to myself, and only take classes based on whether they will assist me in my profession - whether they qualify for pdh units is secondary in my book.

(By the way, many states do recognize online courses, but I can't speak for Utah).

RE: professional development hours

Hello Renee04 .. This is an interesting thread as I am researching PDHs (I am not an engineer, but a research intern) and I hope that you and the rest of the people looking at this thread will be kind enough to help me out. I have gotten most of my answers via online research, but a few doubts linger. I was wondering as to what it generally costs someone to complete their PDH requirements in a state .. I know that ND had done a study where they estimated it would cost $700 per registrant to satisfy the PDH req. Is this true across the US? Can someone give me a ballpark figure? THANK YOU !!! :)

RE: professional development hours

(OP)
Harsharaghavan:

Starting in 2005, I will need to accumulate PDH's for my NY registration.  Fortunately, the University near work here in Missouri has free seminars that I can attend and I can go on company time.  I am very fortunate.  Hopefully others in the discussion group will be able to help you.  Best of luck.  

RE: professional development hours

The company I work for pays about $70 US per hour, plus my lost opportunity time, for technical training which would count towards PDH.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: professional development hours

Renee04,
I provide my engineering services to factories that are anywhere but home, so with all my spontaneous travel (I'm not working if I am not traveling) it is difficult for me to schedule classes for PDHs.  So your comment about free seminars at the university intrigues me since I also live in a MO college town.  Is there a website or some other source that lists these seminars?  Thanks.

RE: professional development hours

(OP)
sgwhip,

Unfortunately, I don't have a website.  A co-worker gets the notices and passes them on.  Ours are through the Univeristy of Missouri, Columbia.  Contact the head of the engineering department.  I don't know of any free online courses.  Sorry I couldn't be of more help.  Good luck

RE: professional development hours

Just FYI - You'd be surprised to know that those Real Estate professionals [everyone unfairly condemns as stupid] must take costly update courses at their own expense - during the weekday only - no on-line courses - no convenience - in addition to a slurry of other very time and dollar expensive courses that are "hawked" to them as ways to better place themselves ahead of their peers - Graduate Realtors Institute, Accredited Buyer Agent, Relocation Professional, etc.

We engineers could learn two very important mental perceptions from licensed RE professionals, licensed doctors and dentists, and lawyers:

1- Think of yourself as a small business / run yourself as a small business - stop thinking of yourself as a lowly cubical world "employee," whether you are one or not. ytou are Marty Doe, PE, entreprenuer, professional, providing a service to the company with whom you are presently connected.

2 - Take professional responsibility and pride in furthering your own education at your own expense. they are tax deductable anyway. you'd be surprised at the looks i get telling my Chief Engineer or HR that "I'll pay for it myself. The company doesn't need this expense.

Greg, I think you might find that companys are not at all required to pay for our career advancement: it's OUR responsibility. And we can be proud of that.

Chris in NC NASCAR Country


 

RE: professional development hours

Renee04,
Thanks...I can work with that.

RE: professional development hours

I did not say they /should/ pay it. I said they /did/, because somebody wanted a ballpark figure. Sorry for trying to be helpful.
Sheesh.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: professional development hours

Most of the boards allow credit for publishing without any named restrictions.  What about publishing on the 'net either a through a company or private site or a paid internet publishing service?  Any comments?

RE: professional development hours

Hello;
    Florida has a list of approved suppliers for PDF. This has both an upside and a downside. The upside is that if you get your PDH from one of these, it will count. However if you want to get your PDHs from another source, you are out of luck.

RE: professional development hours

Do doctors and lawyers have similar requirements to remain licensed? For that matter, accountants, contractors...

Has there been a case where an engineer's license was revoked for failing to keep up with the PDH's?

I'm in California and as of yet, the board does not require continuing education... Thankfully.

RE: professional development hours

Here in Australia doctors have to do a certain number of PDHs. They grumble about it, particularly after they were banned from doing them in fancy restaurants.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: professional development hours

(OP)
Here in the United States, doctors have to do PDH's also.  

RE: professional development hours

So do attorneys an even nurses.  Most (maybe all) of these PDH requirements are determined by state boards, not national boards.  While the concept of PDHs is good, it has created a whole industry of suppliers, and much of it is a racket.  Folks who lead a normal regimented life don't necessarily see this.  Those of us who hit the road to make a living find scheduling meaningful PDH classes very difficult.  I am constantly watching for acceptable (yet meaningful) ways to fulfill my MO requirements.  This forum has given me some ideas I will try in the next 2 years instead of buying cheap compliance.  I may try publishing, too.  No one has yet answered Tomcat699 a few postings up.  Any comments?

RE: professional development hours

What about engineers say registered in NY, but are on long term assignments in China.  How are they to earn their PDH's??  Go to a university lecture in Beijing - okay - in Chinese language - still ok??  It is difficult in such instances.  I was lucky in India where English is the prevailing engineering language - to give presentations/lectures to an IIT, similar to the Calcutta geotechnical group, write some papers for symposiums/conferences.  But, now I am in Indonesia on an outlier island how I am to earn my PDH's?  
  I have always thought that these ideas for PDH's were the take of those who do/would (1) give lectures/presentations to those needing the credits, (2) be university types who have better chances of being published, or (3) inventors - wow a PDH for a patent. Cool - but better, get PDH's by attending a Philadelphia area ASCE committee meeting . ummmm.

RE: professional development hours

There are a number of online PDH opportunities.  I even think there's a pdhonline.com website put out by one particular company.  Also ASM International, and who knows who else.  Search for "online PDH" or "online CEU".  Not to mention "distance learning" university courses.  Some states will also allow a certain number of credits to be earned by "self-study".

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: professional development hours

The problem with mandatory PDH is that the scope of the profession is simply too vast to be able to adequately define what activities are valid and how many hours should be assigned to each activity.

My Brother in law and his wife are pharmacists. They have to listen to some taped lectures and answer open book questions. (They simply read the questions before listening to the tapes and write down the answers while listening.) For this they get PDH’s. Not too bad in a profession where 80% of the practitioners do almost exactly the same job but in our profession the logistics of producing and distributing the tapes would be enormous. Topics relevant to automotive would have only passing interest to electrical or civil engineers for example.

I don’t know what the answer is.  Any defined scheme would be too broad and cumbersome to be efficient of it had the scope to be effective. Any self directed scheme, like in Manitoba where we sign a declaration saying that we have ‘developed’ our skills as necessary, is too weak to have much effect.

When I was registered in Alberta which has a defined scheme, I found that I had twice the necessary time in formal training, informal training, practice and other categories to meet the requirements.

We are professionals we should be responsible to develop and maintain our skills ourselves; however we are also human so something is needed, I just don’t know what the answer is.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: professional development hours

an answer to whyun's question about revoking the eng. lic. over lack of PDHs...
TN started requiring PDHs for surveyors and eng. several years ago  The first couple of years they were kept by hand and if you were a couple days late it was ok but...
I had the honor of being the first on the new computer system that tracked them and since I did not have my 15 hrs in at 11:59:59 on Dec 31 It kicked my RLS out and made it inactive.  I had to reapply repay the aplication fee etc It cost me several $ 100 to be reinstated (Did not have to retake the test, but was otherwise a new applicant).

john  

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