Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
(OP)
I need to grid-tie a bunch of about 50 small inverters that process DC input of say, up to 17 Vmp and 6.5 Imp and back feed this through a small sine wave inverter rated to +/- 120 watts into an existing 120 VAC / 60 Hz AC grid. The AC grid is not a public utility, rather the end-user's AC supply, so IEEE or U.L. standards for back feed do not apply. The key here is the functionality, not bureaucratic approval of the precise quality of the back feed.
It's easy to get DC to AC, and relatively easy to get the AC in a sine wave, but synchronizing to another AC sine wave source for a parallel connection seems complicated.
Is it that complicated? If you could live with harmonic distortion of up to 5% - 7% and efficiency of the conversion from DC to AC in the 85% to 90% range, is it really that difficult to process the DC and parallel these two AC sources?
Or, if we have the small sine wave inverter, we need to parallel it with the AC grid on site. The key here is being able parallel the two AC sources.
A company in Europe, for example, http://www.mastervolt.com/sunmaster/soladin.asp
has a mini grid-tie inverter that processes the DC input from a solar panel, but not available in 120 VAC/ 60 Hz. They seem to be doing it almost exactly as I need, but in more/less a Radio Shack form of package, with a nominal 24 VDC input and the output is European 230 / 50Hz. I don't need the packaging and all the bureacratic approvals, just need the function in a 120 VAC / 60 Hz environment.
Can anybody help?
It's easy to get DC to AC, and relatively easy to get the AC in a sine wave, but synchronizing to another AC sine wave source for a parallel connection seems complicated.
Is it that complicated? If you could live with harmonic distortion of up to 5% - 7% and efficiency of the conversion from DC to AC in the 85% to 90% range, is it really that difficult to process the DC and parallel these two AC sources?
Or, if we have the small sine wave inverter, we need to parallel it with the AC grid on site. The key here is being able parallel the two AC sources.
A company in Europe, for example, http://www.mastervolt.com/sunmaster/soladin.asp
has a mini grid-tie inverter that processes the DC input from a solar panel, but not available in 120 VAC/ 60 Hz. They seem to be doing it almost exactly as I need, but in more/less a Radio Shack form of package, with a nominal 24 VDC input and the output is European 230 / 50Hz. I don't need the packaging and all the bureacratic approvals, just need the function in a 120 VAC / 60 Hz environment.
Can anybody help?






RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
Bung
Bung
Life is non-linear...
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
Yes, a grid tie inverter locks with the AC main and in the event of loss of the main or say, like a brown out where line voltage drops below a certain level the inverter instantly isolates from the main.
So whether the inverter synchronizes with a public utility AC main or a user-owned AC main this feature is still desirable.
The difficulty seems to be with getting the two AC sources to synchronize fequency etc with minimal distortion, since each AC source seems to more/less be on its own clock - so to speak, like getting two clocks to tick at precisely the same time.
aegcmac
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
It may help to provide the more information on the context of the application, if intended for something besides a public utility. What are the anticipated individual and total capabilities of the inverters? What are ratings of the non-inverter part of the system?
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
There are much larger auto-sync units available from Basler, Beckwith, etc, but these are like a tractor trailer for auto-sync/switching several large mains and large generators, etc, when all I need is a little VW bug.
aegcmac
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
But if the AC main is at 120v and the small inverter is at 117 doesn't this drag down the AC main? I can't see the circuit tryng to lift the 117v to the 120v, so I'm not sure what happens here to sync the voltages. Although, it would seem the voltage difference would be the least important of the three; frequency, phase angle and voltage, if they were in a fairly tight voltage range.
If anybody knows exactly how to do this I know a company that would pay a few $K for the PCB
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
It is possible that off-the-shelf equipment (so-called grid-tie inverters) with “bureaucratic approvals” will do what you have described, and that in-place IEEE/UL/NFPA standards could save reinventing the wheel. You might check with vendors’ applications people on lists like that at www.consumerenergycenter.org/erprebate/equipment.html and explain your needs.
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
Long shot — you might try www.exeltech.com
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
The utility I work for has several dozen of these things in customer premises, and they just switch themselves in (and out) pretty much as they please.
Bung
Life is non-linear...
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
Yes, Exeltech would be long shot. They know how to do it, but again, their whole product scale is for much larger applications, so like the other MFRs they don't offer it in a smaller scale and would have no desire to do it for just 50 units.
In the U.S., there was the one small 100w grid-tie inverter, so there are many of these grid-connected throughout the U.S., but they're out of the business completely. There are a few of these units floating around, but not enough for what I need and they're 100% epoxy-filled-encapsulated, require twice the input voltage I'm needing so I can't go there. All other U.S. units capable of grid-tie are scaled much, much larger.
I'll probably try to talk to a few of the European MFRs making the small units to see if they have something or maybe send out an RFQ into Korea, China etc, where these units are likely being made in the first place. Or go to Plan B.
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
I've checked further into sync check relays and may have found something I can work with. It may not be a home run or exactly as I need it, but I think it will get me to third base, and I think I can get it the rest of the way with a couple small, inexpensive peripheral items.
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
It's easy to get DC to AC, and relatively easy to get the AC in a sine wave, but synchronizing to another AC sine wave source for a parallel connection seems complicated.
///Not quite. In old times, three bulbs were used. When all three bulbs were dark the synchronized switch was turned on. It is assumed that the inverters will have a highly accurate clock for triggering circuitry. Alternately, an electronic firm or an electronic hobbyist may be contacted for a custom made solution.\\\
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
(1) Too many "guerrilla" solar folk were attaching A/C plugs and covertly back-feeding the grid.
(2) Instabile chatotic behaviour resulted from unit to unit cross-talk.
(3) Too many farmers got electrocuted, handling 110Vac wiring connected to panel-invertors. (input or output, only 5 ma is all it takes, night or day, beer can or not).
The parallel invertors I have seen require a master that provide supervision and syncornization, by way of a cable.
Generally codes require a single of grouping of disconnects for personel safety. For, aegcman If your main invertor shuts down then, its all up to the childern to make up their own rules.
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
When two or more battery based inverters can be and are paralled, yes, they do have a Master and the rest are slaves, usually via a control card, etc and of course they have to be identical units. I just discovered Honda now has a few small generators like their little EU1000, 2000, 3000 that can be paralled to another EU1000 etc. They're promoting these units as having "inverter technology". But the modern grid-tie inverter designed solely for back feed that doesn't use a battery eliminates the Master/Slave requirement and just processes all available power from solar panels and each handle their own intertie, so you can just add as many as needed, different size or brand units, etc, as long as they're made for the correct line voltage and frequency.
I had read a brief article on the old light bulb approach - thanks. It was a brief overview, so I'll have to do more digging on this. It does seem that the very best place to make the parallel between our larger inverter and the smaller ones as they would need to come on line would be at the point of rest. I'm thinking that if the voltages are real close and pretty stable and the frequencies are generally always within 1 or 2% of each other, then the real main (most important) issue is to eliminate phase angle. The place I'm still a bit confused is that assuming both AC sources are at rest, can I be sure that when we connect them with a rapid switch that they both go toward negative (or positive), for example or is it still possible one could go positive and the other negative from this rest point and I end up with serious distortion. Maybe that's what the three light bulbs help establish. I admit I'm also not 100% clear on the first few milliseconds of AC, whether AC always first flows toward the negative or the positive or is it random. So I'll try to better understand the light bulb concept and how with this concept we can use the sync check relay. The relay requires sync of phase within I believe 5%, so I'm also wondering rather than bring the two active AC sources together if you couldn't just use an ON/OFF switching device that turns on the smaller inverter's AC for a second and if the sync relay likes it then we simultaneouly bypass the switch (or keep it closed) and the sync relay closes to lock them together, and if the sync relay doesn't like it after a second then the switch turns OFF/ON to try again. I'm wondering if with this type of almost random OFF/ON if sooner or later you can't get the phases close enough to trip the sync relay. Problem is of course, this could take a few seconds, minutes or hours etc. It would seem you would have a say, 1 in about 120 chance of getting it right each time at 60 Hz. Probably a completely crazy thought, but I thought, well, 30 tries a minute means that after 10 minutes you have 300 attempts, which is nothing for a high quality switching circuit, and a 10 or 15 minute lag would not be an issue in this project, but it would definitely be like a dice roll if possible at all. I guess it could potentially take days to get a phase sync. So a more controlled, faster way to sync them is best. I'm just brain storming all possible ways to do it relatively simply and automatically without needing complex logic circuits, numerous ICs and such. I'll get more info on the old light bulb method, and I am trying to find someone who can help complete the design on this like a hobbyist or someone who can consult privately (discreetly if need be). Our company will compensate, but the EE firm's executives will try to make ten times what the person makes who actually designs it, so they'd rather compensate a hobbyist or the actual designer than the executives.
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
aegcmac — You are probably very familiar with this stuff..
www.basler.com/downloads/intro_synch.pdf
www.basler.com/downloads/ula1bull.pdf
www.basler.com/downloads/Ump5bull.pdf
Many responders may be ingrained in the utility frame of mind dealing with rote high-value equipment damage and personnel safety.
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
[continuing] A problem may be the idea of multiple IEEE-929/UL-1741 components {a/k/a “consumer electronics”} for paralleling duty being a contemptuous and wholesale bastardization of some deep-rooted reliability and preservation issues, and not widely understood or accepted.
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
Yes, thanks, I had gotten the Basler info after buzzp mentioned the sync check relay which was very helpful too. If it weren't for the over-scaled +/- List $1000 each for the auto-sync units or if the mini inverter I first mentioned was available in 120v/60Hz I'd be done. But now it's becoming more of a personal challenge to solve this for this scale of a specific, unique project. It's a private system, so we can do whatever we want if it works, and fortunately I have the time to pursue this a little while.
For the public grid, I do think the inverter MFRs are basically forced to kiss the A of the public utilities and in the process they are jumping through all kinds of hoops for IEEE, UL, etc, for the grid tie, so I can understand why they don't want to offer a very small, inexpensive unit that really can't be mainstreamed right now. The reality is that the leading inverters are extremely reliable, but they have to grid-tie to a grid that isn't. I hear some home owners are getting a constant 126 volts, some 112, etc. I imagine this happens to industry as well. There does need to be an acceptable uniform standard for back feed of course or else a sleezy MFR could just dump a bunch of garbage into the public line, but as usual, once the buracracy gets set in motion it just grows larger and larger, so MFRs are more/less scared to get too creative past what they already have IEEE or UL approval for. The costs to design and build is nothing compared to the cost for these approvals, which adds cost to the end product.
The fact is that if you had thousands more of these modern inverters grid tied with like solar, wind and hydro for example, you'd actually improve the public grid, but instead of clearing the way and encouraging more of these most states and public utilities throw out all the road blocks at the MFRs and also force the end user to obtain permitting, line tie approval, install a new meter, etc.
Since each small inverter has to be able to parallel to the main on its own, I haven't checked yet to see what the per unit cost would be for 50 of the BE3-25A Basler auto-sync units, with I think a List of like $1000, but I do have some of the sync check relays on their way to me to experiment with once I figure the best way to try to get the two inverters in sufficient sync to close the relay without a manual adjustment requirement...if I can. I'm willing to kill a few inverters or whatever in the learning process, but also hoping to find someone who knows exactly what to do before I create too much smoke
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
1. The paralleled inverters will cause an increased short circuit currents since the paralleled system impedances Zsys,i for i number of inverters will approximately become:
Zsys,total=(Zsys,i)/(i), which can become very small.
2. The harmonic interaction, if there are no input harmonic filters such as LINEATOR, will increase, causing voltage peaks due to harmonic superpositions.
3. The probability that an inverter going "plazma" posing danger to maintenance personnel, will increase with the number of paralleled inverters.
4. Etc.
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
The other issue is that the end-user owns the facility including all wiring and systems within it, but the PU owns everything from the meter. So you have some rebellion towards the PU, which is a form of localized monopoly of the power supply, and whenever you attempt changes within a buracracy like the public utility it most always involves politics. So really, it's the politics that is the real barrier because the MFRs know how and are happy to build highly reliable, safe inverters for grid tie. The engineers within the PU typically have no problem with this inverter technology once they actually see it.
Thanks for the tip on the hamonic filters. I'll look into this further. I've posed the single question of adjusting phase angle in another forum also, Circuit Engineering, just to try to cover all bases and get any input possible for a relatively simple solution. On a small scale private project like mine, and where I have voltage and frequency sufficiently tight I'm thinking this phase angle issue is one of the last major pieces of the puzzle.
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
I disagree with your assertion that standards do not apply. Regardless of statutes, they are a good source of accepted engineering practice.
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
I regret if I gave the impression that standards should not apply, rather I do firmly believe in uniform standards. It's just that I hear of many cases where on public systems leading technology experts are having to answer to the bureaucrats, the politicians vs. simply satisfying the engineers who understand it, etc, and in privately owned/controlled systems the operators are usually more concerned about system integrity and safety than anybody since they tend to be proud of the system they build in the first place and their neck is 100% on the line. So I know we must have standards of acceptable engineering practices, etc, but I just think we could do with a little less politics.
A light bulb first went on when you mentioned a common clock. Thanks for the input. But now I'm having trouble seeing it with just one clock, if that's what you meant, where it might take two clocks to get the two AC sources synced at the point they both tick at the same time, etc. It may be I need to better understand the common clock, and I will pursue this, but could you elaborate on this a little please?
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
As far as the 2 clocks go, they are needed to make sure each runs off the same timing as the other. Otherwise, over time they will tend to drift apart and soon will be out of sync. So both inverters will have to be ran off the same clock or synchronized with another. The sync check relay is needed to tie in with the grid whether one or two inverters will be used. I have not designed with PLL (phase lock loops) but I believe this is the function of such a device- to hold two clocks in sync with another. Good luck.
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
I imagine a system something like this: The 5000 watt inverter would have an internal clock so it can output 60 hertz with no other source present. The smaller inverter would be of the grid tie variety, getting its signal from the existing AC line. The startup procedure: Turn on big inverter then turn on small inverter.
If you're trying to build the grid tie inverter circuitry yourself, I can't offer much help.
The main thing I'm trying to get across is this: Two inverters have separate internal clocks, one running at 59.999 Hz, the other at 60.001 Hz. Using a light bulb or sync check relay, a switch is closed when waveforms are in phase to connect the two systems together. The two inverters are not synched, and will continue to operate at their own individual frequencies.
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
I have not read it yet, but a quick scan looks as it may be helpful.
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
http://www.homepower.com/files/GS_1.pdf
http://www.renewableenergyworks.com/pv/home_systems/acpv/microsine.html
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
I have worked quite a bit with Trace equipment on some pretty large grid interactive systems where we take from the gird as we need it and backfeed into the grid any excess power generation. But they don't offer anything near the scale I'm needing. Interestingly, the web link GOTWW just provided is a mini grid tie inverter introduced into the American market several years ago by Trace that if still manufactured would be at least a significant help, but it's no longer made, there's only a few floating around, and the actual MFR in Europe has no interest in bringing it back to life. In fact it went from being called the Microsine when Trace introduced it to OK4U before it basically died in North America. I actually have a few of these units on my work bench from other mini projects a few years ago, but they're 100% epoxy or polymer filled so you can't learn a thing about them.
I'm starting to see why maybe Tom Edison fought for DC as the prime source over AC when they brought the first systems on line when you consider all the controls, monitoring and synchronours features needed to sync AC sources together. He lost the fight and AC became the prime source for efficiency reasons back then, but I better understand why he probably fought for DC.
I'm now thinking more seriously that to get two AC sources to parallel the voltage and frequency isn't as much the issue if you have these relatively stable and real close to each other. Voltage amplitude could be an issue, but again, if these are real close I'm not sure this would be an issue either. Given that voltage, frequency and even amplitude are within say, 2% of each other the real main issue is the phase alignment. I have an experiment planned this weekend to parallel two different AC sources where we concentrate solely on the phase alignment. I may smoke a few small inverters, but I believe that if I can get the phases aligned within +/- 5 degrees the sources will parallel. I'm going to try a couple of different methods including random, a simple clock tick pattern etc. If I can get them to lock together, they may not be in perfect sync, and like STEVENAL stated they may operate at their own frequency, and I know it may not be at the highest efficiency overall, but I'm thinking maybe sufficiently paralleled to be useful on a private site.
If you walk out your door and see a cloud of smoke in the distance it is probably me.
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
RE: Grid tie inverter - parallel AC sources
http://www.solarempowered.com that they are on back order...which actually means these people apparently don't realize they'll be on back order forever unless they can put their hands on a few of them. I doubt there are more than 10 floating around the U.S. and once they're bought they're gone.
I would need 50 units of "something", so you could see why this won't be an option. However, it does show us that it can be done on a small scale.