Engineering Union
Engineering Union
(OP)
Does anyone know the reason why engineering ethics include the statement that engineers shall not form a union? Where did this originate from is really my question. I am not real interested in hearing arguments for or against the union just curious to know why someone thought it was important enough not to have an engineering union. Thanks





RE: Engineering Union
Coka
RE: Engineering Union
For engineers to get organized into a union, you would be diminishing the status, class level, and respect of engineering (at least in the historical socialogical views).
Unions were somewhat arrayed with anarchists (Chicago) and with socialists, communists, etc. (but not always) and this was totally contrary to the "other" side of society made up of upper class careers like doctors, lawyers, managers, businessmen, etc.
There is also the concept of professional ethics that governed architects and engineers over the years whereby one engineer would be prohibited from competing with another engineer by underbidding services or by politicizing the selection process.
RE: Engineering Union
The NSPE Code Of Ethics doesn't say anything with respect to unions.
buzzp,
Is there another Code Of Ethics that you are refering to? If so, please identify it. I am curious.
Also, I did interview at a firm once that did have a union, which every employee there was required to join.
I have heard that Engineers working directly for New York State are in a union. I am sure that this applies to others.
I believe that Engineers at Boeing are in a union.
RE: Engineering Union
I haven't heard of this in any Code of Ethics? Where have you seen this? Many engineers, especially in government, work as union members. I think the only conflict is when engineers are managers, this creates a conflict of interest, and thus obviously managers can't be union members.
Regards
VOD
RE: Engineering Union
RE: Engineering Union
RE: Engineering Union
I was, in fact, mostly concerned with engineers in the exempt area.
The above mentions about unions and engineers, are any of those unions bargaining units (negotiate pay)? I, too, am in a union but not a bargaining unit. Kind of worthless really.
RE: Engineering Union
TTFN
RE: Engineering Union
We have the ridiculous situation that only unions are allowed to negotiate for our pay rises, yet many engineers, myself included, are not in the union. So we aren't even represented (in theory) at the pay negotiations.
There is a push by the unions to make non union members pay a 'negotiation fee' to the unions in return for representing the at the bargaining table.
This rather transparent ploy seems likely to succeed, unfortunately.
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Engineering Union
I'm pretty sure that Seattle Professional Engineer's Association (SPEA) negotiates salaries with Boeing. They went on strike for a few months back in 2001 I think. An engineer for Boeing is not required to join, and Boeing usually matches any salaries for non-union employees.
As for your ethics questions, I've never heard of anything to that effect. It was never mentioned the entire time I studied for the PE exam. The MERM doesn't mention it, and neither does NSPE.
Brian
RE: Engineering Union
This is a union in all but name.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Engineering Union
RE: Engineering Union
RE: Engineering Union
Union members have a responsibility to protect the jobs, reputation, etc. of their fellow union members. Professionals, inlcuding doctors, lawyers, and engineers have a primary responsibility to the public; not to their brothers in trade.
It will not be difficult for you to imagine where conflicts of interest might occur.
I believe that these conflicts of interest are sufficient to make it unethical for engineers to unionize.
Curvbridger
RE: Engineering Union
Unethical? I would say not. Any possible improvements to be had by consultants unionizing? Probably not. However, it would bring up the pay for most exempt engineers. Its hard to work for a company knowing that the trade workers are making as much as you are, only because they are unionized. I am their boss, so why am I making the same amount as the electrical foreman? Anyway, I can deal with it.
I learned something interesting the other day that makes me upset and sort of off topic is that real estate appraisers have their own little monopoly going to control the competition and to have a kind of price fixing. Did you realize that going to college (2 years I think) is not enough to become an appraiser? They are required to work under an experienced appraiser for 18 months (might very by state) in order to become licensed. The problem is the latter, working with a mentor. This allows them to control the number of new appraisers entering the field of work. It also allows them to set their own rates because there is no competition. No wonder it costs $450 for an hour of easy, easy work. Sorry to go off on a tangent.
Hmmm, sounds real close to the requirements to obtain a PE only the mentor thing can often be waived depending on experience. Oh, and the eight hour test.
RE: Engineering Union
RE: Engineering Union
How does that square with "a responsibility first to the public"?
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Engineering Union
In any case, I don't really see how a union would benefit someone working as a consultant. However, I do see the benefits for exempt engineers.
Thanks for the posts.
RE: Engineering Union
In a gun battle (the market) who ever gets their pistol loaded and then fire it (the product) will win.
Tobalcane
RE: Engineering Union
Unions are effective when they have the power to deny an essential service. If bus drivers go on strike Sunday night, a lot of people are going to be late for work Monday morning. If engineers go on strike...well most companies can continue to produce and sell their existing product line for an indefinite period of time without the engineers. Odds are the company can out wait the engineers.
RE: Engineering Union
Before you resign yourself to a position of powerlessness (which, I think, alot of engineers are apt to do), take a look at one engineer's account of participating in the Boeing engineering strike (which is the only engineering union strike I can remember hearing about):
http://www.avweb.com/news/atis/181947-1.html
There's a follow-up article on the site as well.
I bet that if you thought about it, you'd find similar day-to-day functions that would be hard-pressed to continue without your engineering dept's presence.
Just a thought,
Regards
RE: Engineering Union
I just skimmed thru the original article. Is the strike now settled?
RE: Engineering Union
Yes, this all happened in early 2000. Here, I was too lazy to track down the follow-up link before:
http://www.avweb.com/news/atis/181948-1.html
Both articles are pretty good reads, especially for those of us that have never been in a union or had to negotiate employment contracts.
Regards
RE: Engineering Union
However, given the concern with outsourcing, etc. I think the fastest way to convince a company to outsource its engineering department would be to unionize.
Boeing is in a unique situation as their only real compatition is Airbus which is in heavily unionized Europe.
I would like to see the software engineers in Seattle try to unionize. Their jobs would all be moved to India within a week.
RE: Engineering Union
However, I think that AndrewTX has raised an important point, for if you type "Boeing outsourcing" into a search engine you will find numerous articles such as the one below:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/251611.cms?
SPEEA may have won a battle in 2000, but it seems like in the long run Boeing will win the war.
RE: Engineering Union
While Boeing does and must outsource to other companies in the US such as Northrop, Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, etc., there is a minimal amount of outsourcing to foreign companies due to the obnoxiousness of getting through customs and making sure that you are up to speed on ITAR.
One would not nor should not expect Boeing to build everything down to the nuts and bolts themselves. This is unrealistic and doomed to failure. Commodity items and items that are more efficiently manufactured elsewhere should be outsourced.
This is the exact model that you run your homes with. Most do not grow their own food, churn their own butter, make their own toilet paper. If you have that model, why would you expect companies to do otherwise?
TTFN