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Do I go to school, or take formation during work?
11

Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

(OP)
Hi

I'm a 22 years old Technician in mechanical engineering, I've been working for about Three years as a Technician, designing machine for the food industrie in a small company. During those 3 years I learned a lot on the job and I been offered a promotion to be in charge of R&D. There's a lot of potential in that and I would be very happy to fullfil that role. On the other hand I would like to get more knowledge about engineering to be able to do better and more sophisticated machines.

So I am considering going back to school full time, to take the engineering class, and sacrificing this opportunity. Or taking the job and taking some classes paid by the company, at the same time.

What's best learning at school and getting a diploma, or learning on the job?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Patrick

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

Hi PatCouture:

If your company is offering you both a promotion and payment for additional education, I think you should stay with them as they are unusually generous.

If you go back to school, the head of R&D position will be filled by someone else.  It is unlikely that it will again be available to you.  Worse yet, depending on the economy, outsourcing etc. etc. you might have difficulty getting any job when you graduate.  

A bird in the hand is much better than a turkey you might have to settle for if you graduate in a recession.

Good Luck!

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

So your have a MET degree now, or just work in the field as a tech?  If you can get the job without the degree, I say get it.  Im approaching the completion of my 4 years now and see alot of friends having trouble getting really good job offers.  I work for a company I can make 50g laboring and with my attitude and work ethic, I am fairly confident that I could "force" my way up the food chain.  Yes, at one point I would have been limited by my lack of degree, but near 60gs with a desk job isn't much different than 4 years of paying increasing tuition and starting at 40-45gs working for a company that thinks your a number.  Now that I am approaching graduation, I seriously wonder if it is worth it.  I feel fairly comfident I would have been able to teach myself all of the skills I have to this day from reading books, most of which I paid proffessors todo and still ended up teaching myself.    I am not happy with how many hoops one must jump through in order to get a degree that that person is paying for.  I am not talking about taking the classes and doing good, I am talking about the university changing the orientation of class schedules/offering which makes its seems that they want you for 5 years not 4.  Worrying about the .5 credits of gym you need because they changed how much credit gyms were worth in the middle of your degree.  Not giving you ANY credit for the 3 years of job experience and 6 years of field experience.  Its rediculous, I have more on-the-job experience than 90% of my fellow students but it isn't worth crap to the school.  But if you help the proffessors do research and have your nose up their blank all day long they suddenly are holding your hand and showing you every crack in the system.  I guess thats life.  I just am not entirly convinced a degree was the way to go.  Too late now.  In short, if you have a good job offer take it, I am not one who believes the economy is horrible right now, but I do believe companies are not making big offers and really could care less if they hire young new faces.  Keep in mind this is a one sided opinion.  Im sure others will have a more possitive opinion of school

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

Earning the diploma is essential. Without it you have no credentials that are generally acceptable. The diploma itself does not "improve" your skills but it demonstrates that you have been educated in a variety of areas that are important. Examples: math, science & writing skills.
Could you take the job & the classes with the end result of the classes being an engineering degree?

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

There are so many distance learning opportunities for an undergraduate engineering degree from a quality school, that in your shoes there is no way I'd walk away from that job.

It's hard to do a job and school at the same time (that's how I got my Masters), but millions have done it.

David

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

If the job sounds fun, and suits you, then I'd take it. This may be your first step up the management tree, in which case you may find your (non existent) engineering degree is irrelevant. Worst case is that you can do your degree later, whereas the chances are slim that you'll get such a job offer again so conveniently.

If you find your new job is too technical then either hire a technical right hand man, or put the hard word on your employer to help you with your degree.

Congratulations!

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

After my first engineering job, and a bad case of burnout, I took a job in a related field, but not real engineering.  After a couple of miserable years, I was let go, and after a short job seeking stint, got a job back into engineering, where I have been every since in a variety of positions.  

One reason I was let go was that business had turned down, (it was the first arab oil embargo) and it was me or the bosses nephew that had to go in order to reduce the workforce.

Upon seeing my relative success in finding work again in the engineering profession, the bosses nephew then quit and went back to school, and continued his education.  My landing on my feet gave him the motivation to get serious about getting a formal education.

I recommend the education.  Rome was not built in a day, so if it takes you a longer time to do it while pursuing a job that interests you, and might enhance your resume some day, then just plod through it.

When I finally did get through with my education, it was the work experience that I had while getting educated that got me the job where others with the same education and better gpa's were left looking for work.

rmw

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

It depends on what your long-term career goals are. If you want to work your way up the management career ladder then take the R&D post but you may be tied down to your current employer. You may find it hard to land an equal job elsewhere if you don’t have the right qualifications.

Bear in mind that not everyone wants to be a manager; they work stinking hours and must be ‘yes’ men. It can be more lucrative to get your degree, specialise, move around a lot and also become self-employed.

For example the contractor often earns double the salary of a middle manager often because the contractor can do something that the manager can’t do. Not only that, contractors don’t get caught up in childish office politics. I’ve thought about doing both but have decided that I want to be my own man and not a ‘yes’ man.

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

Would your current "peers" be comfortable working for you?  Would you be comfortable being in charge of them?  In addition to the education, you will be expending a significant part of your personal energy in a leadership role.  Answer those questions for yourself to help make your decision.  In any case, persuing the additional education is a good thing.  If your company is willing to help that is even better.  Like others have posted, leaving work to get schooling full time may not be wise at this point.

Regards,

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

I go with everyone who said do both.

An engineering education is so much more than just "book smarts". The problem solving techniques and the core of an engineering degree (thermo, physics, chemistry, materials, mechanics, statistics, math, electronics, etc...) will provide you with a highly developed and usefull view of the world and will allow you to understand the work that will be going on underneath you as a manager of a highly technical department.

OTOH:

R&D is awesome and a blast. I had to wait several years after school and then am paid less than if I was the engineer in the box. Great job chances dont come every day esp with the way the world economy is going.


Also the company that is willing to promote you is likely also willing to commit to your future with them. Imagine if one of your development engineers brought you a new design, Said it was great! It will save tons of money, be more efficient, save the Ozone layer -- all that good stuff. So you support the design and invest much of your department's funding and effort to develop it. When you think you are just about finished one of your durability tests finds a fatal flaw. There is no metal known that will provide any service life. With the engineering knowledge you might have been able to avoid the pothole.

Nick
I love materials science!

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

(OP)
Thanks guys for the quick response. I could give you all a star.

I got to say that I'm from Québec so my technical diploma comes from a Cégep. In québec we have 5 years of high school, and at 17 or 18 we go to Cégep for 2 years if you want to go to University, or 3 years if you want a technical diploma. In my case I've done the technical course, I've learned the basics of engineering so I have what it takes to build a machines but only simple ones.

The point is that if a take the Job I think I can teach myself some things that I didn't see at school and also use everything I can to increased my knowledge. My boss is ready to give me some classes but only in short times, I mean a 2 week period or something like that. It's far from engineering courses.

If I go to university, my boss told me that he would replace me, so it means that I have to forget about this job. Another things is that If I don't go to school now I'll never go.

As Chris said it's about my career goal, I know that I can stay in this Company maybe for 5 to 10 years, but if it goes wrong with the company I would never be able to find another job as High as I would be here. So I think in that case it would be better with a university diploma.

In that way I not sure if I want to be stuck with this company for most of my life, I mean there is really good things here but also some bads that I don't have any control over.

Zdas04 you say that there is a lot of distance learning opportunities, but I'm not sure if in Québec I can get some. If so I don't know any of them

As you can see I have no idea what to do right now, both choice would be great. The thing is that if I don't go to school and it goes wrong with the company then I will regret my choice. On the other hand if I go to school and I can't get through those 4 years I'll regret losing that job.

Thanks again everyone

Patrick

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

Allo Patrick,

I know a guy who graduated from a Cégép as a technician and then went to University to get an Engineering degree and he did not regret it!  The way I see it, you have to take chances at some point.  If it was my choice, I would go back to school without question!  The economy is not great as we speak and it is the best time to get a higher education.  Why wouldn't you be able to go through school??  Of course you can do it!  You already have a technician degree, the engineering degree is only going to complement you.  You know the basics, now you are going to enlarge your horizons.  And you know what?  Nobody says that you have to finish your degree in 4 years.  You can take 5 years.  If you don't go to school, you'll always have the thought in your head: What if I went to school...?  And NO, you don't want to stay in a company just because you don't have a university degree and because you think that you'll never be able to get a better job because of that.  You can always get a better job, you have to be perseverant!  But having a degree helps!  My suggestion to you is to apply to University (english spoken just so that you have better options later) and wait.  Once you are accepted, then you'll think about it.  Give yourself some time to digest the idea of a possible return to school.  Go talk to future professors and see what they think.  I think that you have a great opportunity to get better!  Not everybody does!
Bonne chance!

Coka

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

There is a lot of great advice in this post, and you can see that different people put a strong value on different things.  Coka is right, it is a great economic time to be in school.  For anyone graduating right now, they should be strongly urged to go on to higher education.  However, you are also given the chance to have a good job in a bad economy.  It's a promotion opportunity that will give you tremendous experience.  Although I'm all for full-time school, life experience can speak for more.  The university may not make you a better engineer, it will make you more marketable though.  So with all this said, time comes into play.  The way I see it, your window of opportunity to go back to school will always be open. Your window of opportunity for this job is probably already closing.  Worse case scenerio is that you take the job and the job goes sour after 3 years.  You could just as easily start school at that time as any other time.  Then you'd graduate and not only have a diploma, but 3 years of R&D management experience. I'll put any money down that if you put "Manager" and "Research and Development" down in the same resume, that will speak much higher than BS in Mechanical Engineering.  So my advice is to take the job for 3-5 years, then get the diploma.  Rule of thumb right now among young engineers (at least in the US) is that you should not spend more than 5 years in the same company anyway.  Clearly you'll NEED the diploma, and the experience would be and AMAZING addition.  So find a way in which you can have both.  Try and paint a broader picture for yourself and realize that you have more than just 2 choices in this matter.

ChemE, M.E. EIT
"The only constant in life is change." -Dan Andia; 1999, Chemical Engineering Progress

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

Patrick,
You are in a tough place. I chose not to get the degree. Sometimes it seem like the best choice, others, not so good. Part of the reason I never went for the degree is I majored in partying for several months and couldn’t make grades. To pay for my drinking I worked as a machinist and welder until the job was finished, That was in 1975, Boeing was in a bad way so unemployment for machinists was over 20% in our area, so I started my own business. This has been a roller coaster ride, some good years, some bad. Although I have never had trouble finding work, this lack of a degree has limited my ability to do certain types of work. Some companies, and most governmental agencies only look at the degree, not the ability. To make up for this I have hired engineers, and hired consultants to complete the appearance required.
So to answer you question. Take the current job, but set out a time frame to get as much of your degree without interfering with your current job, save some money so you can take the time off to complete your degree, and find a new job. If you miss you time schedule, don’t beat your self up, just recheck your priorities, and reschedule your goals. As you get older it is harder to commit to further education if you have a family and work more than 40 hours a week.
Over the years I have been unwilling to make the sacrifices to get the degree, and at age 49 going on 50, don’t think I will. The advantage of not having the degree is that I have worked in more different projects than if I had a degree.

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

aspearin1,
I agree with you that since he is given a good job in a bad economy situation, it is an amazing opportunity for him to get experience, but from another point of view, Patrick is 22 years old, and if he wants to have a family in the next 5-10 years, with kids and a house to pay for and so on, it will not be the time to go back to school.  And once in that situation, he probably won't go back, and that is when the regrets will kick in: I should have done it before I got married, kids, etc...
It is a tough decision and it is much easier telling somebody else do this, do that, but unless we are in that situation we can not know for sure.  

Coka

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

True, Coka... very true.  I'm in the family situation myself.  My option is keep a decent job in a bad economy and go to school part-time for my masters.  Hopefully then I can get a great job in a good economy.  So it may stand to reason that Patrick could have too little life constraints.  So let me clarify.  My advice is to make school a priority for importance.  If you can have the discipline to maintain this goal, then you will benefit greatly by adding the R&D managerial experience. If you find yourself to be a person who needs more immediate goals and focuses better that way, then Coka's plan may be better for you.  You can have 1 gold nugget today or 2 gold nuggets next week.  Which will you choose?

ChemE, M.E. EIT
"The only constant in life is change." -Dan Andia; 1999, Chemical Engineering Progress

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

2
As you indicate, the opportunity is there and since you seem comfortable in accepting the position, I think you should.  You may find out whether it's really right for you or not and whether it's to your liking or not.

If your company offers educational reimbursement, you can go that route, if not, you can still do that on your own.  Particularly now, since you're young and potentially have the time and energy to do it.

I would advise against going back to school full time, given this opportunity.  School will always be there, but the opportunity will not.  

TTFN

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

(OP)
I totally agree with Coka, on the fact that I don't want to have kids when I will be 35, a give myself 5 years before establishing a family, and I don't see myself raising kids and going to school, just school will be plenty enough. So even if I take the job for 3 to 5 years when I will try to have a new job there will be this credibilty issue mentionned by Slideruleera, Unless I make good contact for a better job, my resumé will still have that Technical diploma only.

Thanks

Patrick

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

Hi Again PatCouture

Doesn't it make you feel good to have all these strangers taking such an interest in your career?

I gave you a star IRstuff for your last comment:

"I would advise against going back to school full time, given this opportunity.  School will always be there, but the opportunity will not. "

truer words were never spoken.  (And no one employed by a University will ever speak them.)

I regret going to University right after High School, I think I missed out on some life experiences because of this. Oh well, maybe I'll catch up on them when I retire.

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

3
My opinion .......You will be more marketable w/ a degree than without a degree.  

With the degree you can "achieve" more than without one.

Go back to school, either full time or part-time, but don't wait.  

Lorentz said he missed out on some of life's experiences because he went to college after high school. But what about all the experiences he had during those years?  He would not have had them, good or bad, if it was at a different time in his life......

The only regret, if you can call it that, I have in my life, so far, I never went to Grad school as I planned.  I started working in a college professors consulting (structural) office during the summer of my sophmore year.  That "part-time" job became a full-time position that lasted for three years after graduation.  That job turned into another, which, become another, which led to another, which led to my own office.  Do I reget not going to grad school, in a way, yes.  But at this point in my life...I'll never go back and I accept that.

Don't make the mistake that college will always be there.......it might be......but your life's situations might not allow you to go when you can......

Go back.......learn......study......excel......If you are good enought to become head of R&D with three years being a tech....imagine where you can go with an education....  

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

Excellent answer, CSEllc!!

The morale of the story?  Don't put off things for tomorrow if you can do them today!

Coka

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

CSEllc, I disagree with the comments "You will be more marketable w/ a degree than without a degree. With the degree you can "achieve" more than without one."

He doesn't need to be more marketable at the moment.  Sure, in the future if he is unhappy and wishes to move else where in his profession, it will be useful.  Obviously his employer thinks he is a valueable resource AS IS, and if they felt he NEEDED a degree, they would tell him to get one or offer him help to get one.  With that said, no, the degree CANT hurt.  But if you goto school full time, chances are the job wont be there when your done.  

The sencond half of that comment was that the degree allows you to acheive more with one than with out one.  I totally disagree.  You are what you make of yourself, bill gates is a prime example.  Most people need the aid or motivation that college provides to learn and excel in the trade of their desire.  Some do not need this motivation.  Just because you(not you personally) have a ME degree doesn't make you gods gift to the world, someone with out the degree can accomplish the same things that one with the degree can.

Dont take any of those comments personally, they were not ment to be.  I was trying to be general.

Coka, your moral is correct..... and can go both ways.

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

It's clear what Patrick is leaning toward.  Any more discussion on the subject is probably more than he was looking for.  (But here goes anyways.)  Getting back to JRW's comments, it's true that people find their inspiration in different places.  I for one had little motivation through college.  I did horribly at book work and excelled on projects.  Now that I'm in the working world, I excell at my work because it's a project type of job.  But then again, I find myself going back to the books so I can do more with my projects.  So you can say for me, that my working in the real world has given me that inspiration to go back to school and given me that motivation I never really achieved in my undergraduate college career.  For the record, people can, do, and have quite successfully completed their undergraduate degrees while juggling a family and household.  It's not easy, but then again, that's what makes it so meaningful.  If life is always easy, then you're not challenging yourself enough.

ChemE, M.E. EIT
"The only constant in life is change." -Dan Andia; 1999, Chemical Engineering Progress

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

Lets look at the big picture.... a few years go by, he never went back to school never got his degree...he basically is stagnant....there is only so much you can do in the engineering world without a degree and the knowledge that comes with the degree.

He will always have to look over his shoulder wondering if the next employee will show him up and out shine him, or will he have to rely on his subordinates for the back-up because he doesn't havce the background to do it himself?

Does he become the "idiot boss" that we all love to write about "making the buck but doesn't know is ass from his elbow?"  Will he be able to get their respect without the degree, especially since other will have one?

In the long run, having the degree is more marketable....even if he decides to leave this office and go elsewhere.

My opinion.....forget the money now......get the education and you will make more money in the long run.

Regarding Bill Gates, etc., he may have dropped out of college but at least he was there.

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

(OP)
I love your last post CSELLc because I'm already concern about what could happen if someone with more qualifications would be part of the company and come challenging me, I know I'm good at what I do but still there's a lot of things that I don't know about engineering.

Patrick

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

Pat,

Most people your age move onto another job after 3 years, esp. if it's their first job.  That being said, I don't see why you shouldn't go back to school.  At your age, you learn quickly, you don't have to raise your kids, and pay all the expenses associated with being a dad, etc.  

I am 39, and currently a first time dad, etc, and there's no way in hell that I'm going to take ANY courses in the short to medium term.  Too busy, too tired.

Do it now (school).  If I had a nickel for every time I heard people say - "I should have done this degree, etc", I'd have , well, many nickels.

Another neat thing about having an engineering degree, you can work in MANY fields, and not necessarily related to engineering, even if you're NOT Bill Gates.

tg

 

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

Wow! This thread sure is generating activity!

COKA, do you know if MetalMan14 ever found employment?  Remember he was the one who started the thread:

Is there any hope for us entry level engineers?
Thread730-83140

His profile shows he hasn't logged in for some time.  I fear he may have lost interest like dhp78 who started the thread:

Is there more to engineering than this.?
Thread731-17937

PatCouture, you are already more successful than many people with engineering degrees.  Talk to your boss before you decide to pass up the promotion.  I wouldn't be surprised if he told you that you will in fact be able to hire (and fire) engineers with university degrees as you see fit.  The flip side of this is that if you pass up the promotion and get your degree, you might end up working for a technician/technologist.

There is a common misconception that since engineering is a profession, engineers are more or less on par with other professionals such as doctors.  In fact, the "profession" of engineering is not at all like the medical profession.  I've never heard of doctors who couldn't find employment and were forced to become high school biology teachers, but I do know of a Ph.D. in electrical engineering who is teaching high school physics.  I have never heard of a doctor working as a subordinate to a nurse, but I know of many engineers who are supervised by technicians or trades people.  And I have never heard of anyone flying to Asia to save on medical bills, but I do know that most large companies are setting up R&D and "value" centers in India and China where they can pay the engineers 80% LESS than they would have to pay engineers in North America (see Smartech's April 15th post in the thread: Accept the Counteroffer ?
Thread731-92139).

Frankly, I think you could be passing up the opportunity of a lifetime.  At least try the R&D manager's job for a year to see if you like it.

Have a good weekend everyone!

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

Re: doctors.  

That's because the bottleneck is National Resident Matching Program (NRMP).  In order to become a doctor, you must have a minimum of 3 yrs as a resident.  But, only about half of the annual applicants are actually accepted.  Thus, the supply is rigidly constrained.

While doctors are not directly supervised by nurses; any doctor that works for an HMO is, in essence, working for a bean-counter who dictates what is covered, allowable and billable.  This is further aggravated by the overall squeeze on reimbursements, which forces doctors to spend less than 10 minutes, on average, with a patient.

As for Asia, since most Americans are covered by insurance, which will not reimburse for out-of-network, such as Asian, doctors, there is no incentive to go there.  BUT, there's certainly lots of incentive to go to China to get kidney transplants and the like.  In fact, my aunt got two kidney transplants in China, due to the first one failing.  

TTFN

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

PatCouture,
A lot of noise since you asked me to clarify my "distance learning" comment.  If you're still interested ...

Do a Google search on "distance learning" and get 5 million hits (add Qubec and Engineering and it is still over 40k).  

There is a rather lengthy thread in one of the fora here about "will distance degrees ever reach high status" or some such.  There are a LOT of opinions in that thread including several from people who worked, got a distance degree without ever being on campus, and now have ABET-certified engineering degrees from major schools (I recall one individual has a degree maybe from Georgia Tech  without ever being in Georgia).

The intent of Distance Learning is to let an individual do the course work for a college education more or less at his own pace and in his own location (yes, even in Canada).

Were I in your shoes, I would have my cake and eat it too and never look back.

David

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

Let's get our crystal balls out. Take it as an assumption that Pat is lucky to be offered this job and would be unlikely to swing a similar position in a different company (I'm not being rude, just realistic).

so, in 6-8 years time which is the better resume?

1) Manager of R&D department for 6 years, two years of part time study for engineering degree completed.

2) An engineering degree and two years work as a graduate engineer.

I know which one is more likely to get the senior job.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

to Lorentz,

I was actually thinking about MetalMan14 a couple of days ago.  I checked the thread and he marked it, so I droped in a couple of words asking how his job search was going.  Maybe we'll get a response from him.

Coka

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

CLEssc,

I am getting into this thing late, but you used the word "stagnant" in a post several posts back.  I think the word "stuck" fits better.

rmw

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

PatCouture,

Let's talk hypothetically. If you wait a few years and start a family and have kids and then decide that you really do want to go back to school you will end up in the situation that I am in right now.

I am a card carrying journeyman tool and die maker working as an engineering technician. I am married and have two kids, a 1 year old and a 3 year old who is turning 4 this weekend and I own my own home. I currently work about 55 hours a week to support my family and my wife stays at home to take care of the children. At the same time I am taking 12 credit hours this semester at the local university as I am pursuing my BSME.

I work seven days a week to get those 55 hours and have had a total of four days off this year. My employer lets me work a flexible schedule so that I can attend classes when they are offered and still get my hours in every week. I am writing this email on Sunday morning at 11 AM from work. I am working from 5 AM to noon today and worked from 5 AM to noon yesterday too.

This semester I am taking: vibrations, machine design, and kinematics and dynamics of machinery. Each a four credit hour class.

My son's birthday party is today and I am at work. I will make it home just in time to be there for the party. I will not have time to help my wife get ready for the party. His birthday is actually on Monday so we will celebrate with family then.

But, I have a vibrations test this week and projects due for machine design, and kinematics. I am torn between finishing up my projects and studying for finals and my son's birthday. Of course, I will be there for my son and the schoolwork will have to suffer. So to make up for it I will be going to the library every night this week after work and studying until they close. As a consequence I will see my kids for about a half hour before they go to bed each night.

I have been doing this for four years now going part time and I have two years left if I take three classes a semester and two in the summer.

Pat, THIS SUCKS!!!!!!!

Do not let yourself get into this situation. If you feel that you have even the slightest inkling that you would like to attend school and get a degree, DO IT!!!!!

Do it now before you get into a situation that makes it almost impossible to get that degree.

Oh yeah, did I mention that my wife has taken to just about hating me for never being home???? But the outlook for tool and die makers in this country isn't good and I need to provide for my family. So, I am going to stick with it and quite possibly end up in divorce court.

Please take this as a warning, not a sob story. I am asking for no one's pity or admiration. I am just doing what I think is right so that I can fulfill the responsibility of providing for my family. I don't wish my situation on anybody because, man, its tough. I will do it, and I will be a better person for it, but please, for your own sake, go now if you ever want to go.

  

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

Hi jbel:

You are certainly burning several candles at both ends.  I hope that getting the degree works out for you, but if you are studying engineering because "the outlook for tool and die makers in this country isn't good," you may be jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Take a look at the thread:

Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Thread730-85176

and as far as earning prospects for engineers, check out:
 
Job Advertisement, 2 posts – Plumber £60k, Engineer £25k.
Thread730-89244

there you will find an engineer contemplating a new career as a bricklayer!

Your situation reminds me a bit of a fellow I knew who dropped out of high school to become a machinist.  At 29, he went back and took his grade 12, then went on to finish a mechanical engineering degree.  But then he couldn't find a job in his field and was forced to take a job as an electrical service technician.  Though he had no background for this kind of work, the company that hired him didn't care because they were embarking on a new line of business: cleaning up PCB contaminated transformer oil.  A senior technician of this company would have nothing to do with this project, and a junior technician who was slated for it quit after only 4 months on the job.  As a result this "plumb" assignment went to the former machinist who had tried to better himself by getting an engineering degree.  In my opinion, he wasted his money.

It sounds like your prospects are better than the fellow I've just described, but still not as good as PatCouture's prospects are right now (even without a degree).

Once again, I'll state that engineering is not a profession on the same level as medicine (or dentistry, or pharmacy etc.).  For many, the only reward for years of study and thousands of dollars spent is a framed degree on the wall.

Good Luck to us all!  

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

You were expecting a Nobel Prize?

You seem to have profession envy.  You get to make lasting things, exercise your brain, do real science/engineering, instead of digging around in mouths with halitosis or explaining 30 times a day that the cold remedies are in Aisle 5 on the left hand side.

I've been in engineering for 27 years (yikes!) and have yet to think that I went wrong.  I still get to learn new things, tinker with hardware, conceptualize new systems.  This has been the only job I can think of that pays me to pursue my hobby.

TTFN

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

We did a computation when I was an engineering student about a hypothetical buddy of ours who went into a brick layers' apprenticeship directly out of HS, while we went into (then) a 5 year engineering education, all based on the prevailing union scale, and engineering starting salaries of the day.

Our brick layer buddy hypothetically over his lifetime made more than any of us would in our lifetimes, because he got a head start at a good hourly wage.  (assuming he could lay bricks as long as we could operate a slide rule)

However, for all the good that little exercise did our morale, I noticed no one left engineering school, and applied for a brick layer apprenticeship.

If it is what you like, and if it will provide for your family in the long run, stick it out, jbel, and patcouture, get the education as jbel states.

rmw

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

At some point you need to talk to your boss.
You started the thread on the 22nd April. If you take too long to decide, he will become perplexed that you haven't jumped at the chance he is offering you.

There has been lots of either or advise but the best advise would seem to be to have your cake and eat it too; i.e. take the job and get your degree nights.

If your boss is prepared to take a chance on you, then he values you. You are in a strong bargaining position. It is in both your interests to develop your abilities further. You both need to look to the future of the company and what you will need to bring to your responsibilities then, not just now.

If he hasn't offered you support with a degree it is possibly because he didn't think of it. Talk to him about your aspirations (as if not just for yourself but for the company too) and see if you can agree to some flexibility about hours etc while you study and about finacial support/sponsorship.

But once you start this discussion, you need to be able to make a decision and secure the job if you want it or say no and let him think about recriting someone who will do it.

One last point, if you say no, were you planning on going straight back to college or getting another job? because if not, you may not get another chance with this employer and you will have to be prepared to work for someone who will be doing the job you were offered and who may not be as good as you could have been.

Anyway, you are learning the first rule of life: there are no easy decisions. Second rule, once you've made a decision, live with it.

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
eng-tips, Pro bono publico

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

"Si tacuisses philosophus mansisses"
"If you had kept quiet, you would have remained a philosopher"

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

2
I say take the job and start school part time. If in a year this seems like the wrong decision you can quit the job and focus on your studies.

JBEL, I hope you don't take this as an insult but I think you need to re-prioritize. Your family is more important than whatever that overtime will buy. I know it is a requirement in many shops, and it is a tough market, but there forty hour work weeks out there. Work to live, don't live to work.

If you are getting into Engineering for the money or job security you may be disappointed at the outcome.

BTW, I am one of those Technicians that hire the Engineers. As a former machinist (15 years) with an Associates in mechanical design, I do all of the design work and run our shop. I also have 2 UofM Engineering grads who come to me for answers.
It is people like you, with real world experience that my employer looks for. I know I will get a lot of flack for this, but I don't think a degree makes the person. I know of many Engineers who are much smarter than me and have the paper to prove it, yet they barley succeed in finding their own way to work.

I do regret not having the degree on several levels credibility, job portability, example for my kids etc..., but at this point I am not sure the pro's outweigh taking my kids to soccer practice.

Ray Havermahl
Independent Engineering Labs
www.ielinc.com

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

testy,

I hear exactly what you are saying. I work with some of those people you are speaking of.

As far as the regrets for not having the degree, your reasons are some of the reasons I am doing what I am doing. I want the job portability, and most of all the example for my kids that it can be done if you set your mind to it. Of course it is a fine line between doing what needs to be done and throwing it all away because I am never home. I think the credibility factor only comes with showing what you can do and not with the piece of paper.

I work the long hours that I work so that my wife does not have to and can be with our kids. In two years my son will be ready to start school and we live in a less than desirable school district. We are looking to step up to a better community before the kids start school. If my wife were to go get a job the money she would make would pale in comparison to what I can make at time and a half, so we have made the decision for me to work the extra hours.

As far as my stating that my situation stinks, I think I may have misrepresented that, but hey that happens on Sunday morning at 11 AM. Let me say that my situation is extremely difficult right now but that I really do love going to school and I am more in it for the knowlege and the chance to learn than anything else.

I had my first go 'round with college about ten years ago, and I majored in drinking and partying. I quit after a year an a half and went into my apprecticeship. So I am back at it now with a vengence, more to prove it to myself that I can do it than anything else.

So its like a quadruple whammy, prove I can do it, get an education, set an example for my kids for when they get to college age, and hopefully improve my job prospects.

And as far as the job prospects, I know ther are tons of great prospects for people with both hands on experience and a degree. I meet with suppliers and customers all the time that would kill for people with both. So, I am not particularly concerned about being able to find work once I graduate. I think that the guys that need to worry about having a job are the ones who have questionable abilities anyway. If I were to get let go today, I know of several companies that need people with my experience and the fact that I am in school makes me that much more employable. Even in the bad job market of the past four years, if you had the skills and know how, there were many companies around here hiring.

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

(OP)
Guys you are really helpful!

Jbel, I completely understand you about making an example for your kids, and Testy is right about "work to live, don't live to work"

But just like Jbel I want to go to school for the knowledge more than the recognition. I love engineering, and I love my job that's why I think that I will take the Job for now, giving me one year to think about going to school, and saving some more money. And then during this year I can take some classes by night and if it goes well, maybe continue. If it goes wrong with the job and the company then the door is still open for going to school full time.

I got to say that all of you help me go through this thinking process and I want to thank you all

Patrick

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

Good luck with your decision, I think it is a wise choice.

Ed Danzer

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

(OP)
Thanks Ed I appreciate.

Patrick

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

Yes, PatCouture, Good Luck!

One final comment I will make, is that though there has been a lot of talk regarding young employees changing jobs after a few years, don't feel that this is something you must do.

If 3 years from now, you are happy in your work and your company is growing, consider sticking around.  The easiest way to reach the top of a big company is to be one of the early birds at a small company that grows into a big success.  It is much harder to start at a large company and work your way up the ladder.

RE: Do I go to school, or take formation during work?

(OP)
I agree with you Lorentz that it must be easier to grow with a small company that going up the ladder in a big one, In my case, it's a small company of about 50 employees, and I really think that I can build myself in this company, but the fact is that I don't have anyone in front of me to take me under his wings and show me everything, that's why I'm considering School or classes of any kind. I want to be better, I got to say that I learn a lot on the field but some times I need more confidence in myself to do some kind of work and I would like to give me the necessary tools to be successful. I've seen too many people doing things that they really don't know how to do, and making some big mistakes because they were not prepared. I don't want to be in those kind of situations. If I do something I want to know where I'm going.

But thanks for your comments Lorentz because it kind of surprised me when some people said that after three to five years they changed job anyway. I'm not really that king of person.

Patrick

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