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Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit
2

Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
A recent thread about some guy trying to justify disabling his ABS lead to the above topics being broached in an ad hock manner.

I have seen over the years many opinions and some statistics on the complex issues raised above.

I have serious doubts about some opinions and data, and wonder what the truth is.

I will throw up a bunch of open questions, or provocative statements to catalyse some discussion, and hopefully identify some fact and myth.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
Driver skill training is an effective method of improving safety. Fact or myth?

I think I once read that drivers that attended driver skills courses (by whatever name is currently in vogue) show an initial reduction in accident occurrence and severity, but this diminishes within about a year until it comes back to the wider community average, however these trained drivers start to accrue an increased incidence of speeding offences.

If true, this would indicate that even though the accident avoidance skills are increased, the drivers eventually take this into account when allowing safety margins.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

The Victorian police have always claimed that better training for drivers, in terms of handling skills, would be a bad thing for road safety. Oddly enough they send their drivers on these courses.

Personally I am not all that surprised. Few people have explored the adhesive limits of their cars, so are quite astounded to find how much dry grip is available on one of these courses. And once you know its there you tend to build it into your driving style, to some extent.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

I think there are at least two seperate categories here:
1) the limits of the vehicle
2) road and/or traffic sense

Even a one day session with a very skilled driving school can be extremely beneficial. Some comments from a course i attended (driver skills, not vehicle limits)

a) there are no such things as "accidents" driver error always comes into it (including when the brakes fail, tyres burst etc due to failure to check the vehicle).

b) when people "learn to drive" they are actually being taught how to pass the drivers test, which is not the same thing.

c) most people stop learning once they have their licence.

But, a big question re the majority of drivers, would teachning or exposing them to the limits of their vehicles handling be a good thing or a bad thing? Do most people drive well within the safety limits precisely because they don't know what they are?

Incidentally, the British Police Driving Handbook was written for them by some very good racing drivers.

PS Greg, I wondered what on earth the Victorians could have to do with driving.... till i guessed it was a geographic thing, not an historical era thing!

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

I think that driver training for cars is something that authorities (here in Australia, others may be able to inform about around the world) dont really seem all that interested in. Has there been any actual in depth studies into the area. Standards for an advanced driving course that a student must actually pass. There are a number of good driving instructors around. They all have an extensive motorsport background. For motorcyle licensing In NSW the law was changes approx 10 years ago to restrict new (young) riders to less powerfull motorcycles, and they were required to attend a pre learners certificate training course & a second provisional licence training & assessment. This resulted in a significant drop in rider accidents & casualties in the young/learner age group. I do not see why a similar approach should not be taken to all motor vehicle licencing. Surely a better approach than a siple test to see whether someone can reverse park & use their indecators properly.
Regards,
MB

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

In Italy nearly ALL drivers know and have experienced the adhesive limits-many times.  Sorta embarrasing when some guy blows past me around a curve in his stinking diesel (they all smell bad)station wagon and I'm in my Type R Acura Integra.

Can't blame it on an unfamiliar road,, 'cause I've been driving on it for 5 1/2 years now!

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Some insurance companies offer lower (corprorate) rates if drivers are sent on defensive driving courses.

This makes the Police's attitude even more difficult to fathom.

By the way, engineers crash their company cars less often than most company car drivers in the UK, according to a recent survey.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
Fitting devices to help maintain control, such as ABS brakes, better shocks, wheels, tyres and suspension design and settings etc is an effective method of improving safety. Fact or myth?

Do BMW M3's or Honda S2000's have a lower crash rate than SUV's or mini busses

I think I once read that drivers of cars with ABS show an initial reduction in accident occurrence and severity, but this diminishes within about a year until it comes back to the wider community average.

If true, this would indicate that even though the accident avoidance capability of the car are increased, the drivers eventually take this into account when allowing safety margins.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Driver training includes why we should stop when tired, not drive when drunk, check our tyre pressures and a host of sensible things - not just about opposite lock and double declutching.

So of course it's a good idea - but where you draw the line at exploring the limits of your car is a moot point.

Greg's comment about engineers being safe is interesting - I perceive that most engineering colleagues drive quite fast but are more responsive to wet roads, stopping distances and closing speeds - perhaps the intuitive application of physics and Newton's laws of motion to the situation helps us. Or maybe we all found out the hard way in our mis-spent youth.

Having said that, I expect I shall drive into the car in front on the way home tonight!

John

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

2
My opinion, based on having been a race car driving instructor for seven years in the late 80's, I found that being a good pilot on the track had virtually nothing to do with 'street' driving.  I have always considered myself well above average when it comes to 'handling', re. finding the limit, etc.(I have the track records to prove it)!  I also rode a motorcycle in the L.A. traffic for over twenty years and I can truly affirm that the ability to handle an auto in high speed conditions (as in competition) has little effect on the accident rate.  As a matter of fact, some of the greatest race car drivers I have ever met tended to be rather inattentive at  "slow" freeway speeds.  As I posted in the ABS thing, I am prone to make the same "dumb" mistakes that are the cause of most 'accidents'.  The difference, perhaps, is that should I find myself in a dangerous situation my ability would give me an advantage in getting out of it. That is an assumption as at 64 years old, I try very hard to NOT do the usual "stupid driver tricks".  Like I said, I never met a driver that thought he/she was not "above average"!!!

Rod  

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
Is there a correlation between car colour and crash rate, eg are metallic silver grey cars more accident prone than white, red or yellow cars

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
I think the result on seat belts and crumple zones are so conclusive that they need not be discussed, but how cost effective are air bags vs a very well designed and properly worn seat belt in a car with a very well designed interior re safety.

Is it possible to get people to wear seat belts in an appropriate manner for maximum safety

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
Are speed limits and speed limit enforcement effective in reducing accidents.

Do the vast majority of drivers show good judgement in assessing their best speed to keep them alert, but not get them into trouble irrespective of speed limits.

Germany might be the only country left where this data might be collectable, or the Northern Territory of Australia.

If speed limits more accurately reflected the realistic maximum safe speed, would they be obeyed much more often.

Enough for now, but I have a bunch more if interest is maintained

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

To address the airbag issue, Pat---I had the unusual experience while standing on the corner of a major intersection in Pasadena, CA. a few years back when a small car ( A Neon, I think) made a let turn in front of a fast approaching Volvo.  The hit just a few feet in front of me and I watched the passengr air bag in the Volvo deploy.  The young lady (coming from her wedding and dressed in her wedding gown) stepped from the car shaken but totally unharmed.  Made me a believer.

Here in the U.S. speed limits appear to be a revenue gathering device rather than any real effort at controlling accidents/traffic patterns. IMO.  Around here the speed limit is 70mph but if you choose to do the speed limit you had better be in the SLOW lane!!!

Rod

Rod

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Rod

2 weeks ago I was driving down I-5 into San Diego and 65 mph was plenty fast enough. I found it quite scary. The hire car did not inspire confidence.

A month ago I was driving fron Hamburg to Hanover in a hired VW Golf at 170 kph in the rush hour and it felt just fine.

Back home in UK I'm happy at 80 - 90 on the M25 in fairly busy traffic. (This statement is of course entirely theoretical)

It all depends on one's frame of mind, the car you're driving, road conditions and the behaviour of other road users. Difficult to produce legislation to cope with that. (However, French autoroutes have a lower speed limit when the road is wet - 110 kph not 130 - it seems to work).

I'm afraid speed limits are here to stay - it's the Lowest Common Denominator effect.

John

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
Yes, but do the higher denominators fall asleep and crash because they are forced by law to be bored, sometimes to death

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Pat, that is why I chose to ride a bike to work when I was in L.A.---I couldn't stay awake on the freeways when commutes are in the 50 to 100 mile distance. Let me just toss  this in for consideration---It would appear from the stats. that we have, that the majority of major accidents occur in off hours (if 'off hours' is possible in Los Angeles), ie, just prior to or just after peak hours (rush hour) and on weekends when traffic is lighter and speeds are higher.  Drivers that travel the same route day after day at least know where they are going but the weekenders may not.
Just another observation---there are always "rear enders" during rush hour.  Usually slower speeds.  What I see in the last few years, perhaps due  to the advent of ABS in the majority of fast cars, the rate seems to be less. Am I just imagining this???  What I do see is FAR more rollover and single car accidents!!!

John, at least in Germany you don't have to worry about the idiot passing you on the shoulder at 90mph, but even there my son gave up and parked his M3 and started using his R 650 or the train because of the horrilble traffic on the autobahn during rush hour.  There are still a few western states in the U.S. where one can drive fast safely, but they are few and far between.

Rod

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

The issue of speed limits is an interesting one.  IMO, a speed limit does not do much except help keep the general populus at a certain speed.  The advantage of this is when changing lanes.  However, I do not feel that it significantly lowers the accident rate.  However, it does improve safety.  Speed kills... that's a well known fact.  I remember hearing that the German Autoban has very few accidents, but that when accidents happen, they are serious.

Another aspect is road design.  I feel safer on a 2 lane divided highway than on a 6 lane divided highway.  When there are only 2 lanes, you don't have many decisions to make, or worry about drivers cutting across several lanes at once.

Finally, the real threat to safety can be the safety devices themselves.  People start to develop an invincible attitude when they have such devices.  I have never liked ABS systems, nor traction control, because I find they take the control out of my hands.  This makes me nervous, especially when I do not know how the system works or have an indication that it is working.  And this is the problem, most people do not know how these devices work, and hence do not know their limitations.  Take airbags for example.  Do each of you know where the sensors are located?  How many are there?  What force, and from which direction, is required to set them off?  Do you have to be moving for them to work?  Same thing applies with traction control devices... such as the lag time for engagement, power transfer ratio, is it a wheel power limitation system, or does it apply braking to the skidding wheel?  Also, how do you drive with these systems?  In a skid, do you hit the accelerator, or back-off? (that may sound like an obvious question, but in my Jeep CJ7, once you got into the skid, in 4x4 mode, you needed to kick the gas to straigthen out; but in 2x4 mode, you needed to let off the gas).

If you question my issues here, next time it snows, look at how many 4x4s are in the ditch.  Just because you have 4-wheel drive does not mean you can stop any faster.

Sorry for the ramble.  For the most part, I like the safety devices, as maybe one day they will save my life.  However, I would rather put the fate of my life in my hands rather than a computers, even if that means being a responsible driver.

Later,
jetmaker

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

One of the things I observed in my students was that the overly aggressive drivers, the ones who thought themselves above average were the drivers who got the most out of the school.  What you learn AFTER you know it all is most important.  It's pretty easy to channel the agressive behaviour, re direct it in a productive manner,  than to generate it from scratch.

Speed kills?  Actually, no.  It's the sudden stop that does the deed.  If a SRS and ABS can diminish the sudden stop...?

To the issue of technology---I don't understand a thing about how this computer works, but it does not keep me from using it effectively.  Likewise, it follows that it shouldn't be necessary to know how the safety systems on automobiles work in order to benefit from them.   How much does the average driver, indeed, the "above average driver" know about what makes an automobile tick?

Rod  

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Rod,

Agreed that it is the sudden stop that actually does the majority of the killing, but regardless of braking system, it takes longer to stop at 200 kph than it does at 100 kph, so you will still hit the truck that pulled into your lane unexpectedly.

As for the issue of technology, I'll agree that your computer is one that does not affect you, but would you make that same statement for airline pilots who use autopilot systems, Global Navigation systems, Instrument Landing systems?  Pilots are required to have a knowledge of how these systems work, albeit not the nitty gritty theory, so they understand their limitations, and can figure out when they are not working.  I guess that maybe the reason people can and do take a laks attitude towards their vehicles is because the consequences of a mistake are not as severe, and the addition of alot of these systems just perpetuates the problem.

jetmaker

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

I totally agree that race driving ability has nothing to do with road safety. I vividly recall that the great British ace Stirling Moss was an atrocious driver on the public roads when he was at the peak of his career on the track - he failed to stop after a collision on at least one occasion, and finally had his licence revoked, whereupon he continued to drive in Britain on his US license, using a legal loophole. In the same era, Mike Hawthorn was killed when he crashed his Jaguar on the Guildford bypass shortly after becoming the F1 world champion, probably through overconfidence. I myself feel that I was at my most lethal to other drivers in my early twenties, when I was at the peak of my skills behind the wheel (such as they were). In those days I used to pray for wet weather so that I could go as sideways as possible as often as possible and thought nothing of spinning out on occasion. Luckily I didn't kill anyone.

However, I am against many forms of safety legislation such as seat belts and crash helmets, and in many cases blanket speed limits, regardless of whether they save lives, since I am by nature a libertarian and against "nanny government". In the UK I drove far faster than in the States, and much closer to the limit of adhesion, but I got only one speeding ticket in fifteen years of driving. In the US, I long ago lost track of the number of tickets I have received, although in recent years it seems to me that US limits are far less rigidly enforced, and are now usually exceeded on the interstates by 10 to 15 mph by almost everybody. I believe that in the US, speeding tickets are partially a revenue creator and do not reflect much on the safety behavior of the individual driver, which I think the following incident demonstrates. Through inattentiveness in an SUV, I once almost missed my exit on a divided state highway, braked heavily while turning, and lost it, spinning through a 180. It didn't bother me particularly, but it did bother the cop in an unmarked car who was waiting to pull out of the exit. And he gave me .... a warning! I believe it was the only dangerous thing I have done on US roads to date, touch wood. Perhaps ABS and/or attitude control would have helped, but then the vehicle would probably not have stopped as quickly, and since I came to rest about ten feet from a stationary truck, that might have been a problem.

I agree that US driving habits are terrible compared with those in Europe, particularly regarding lane discipline. When I first came to the States, I had to take a written driving test, and studied the relevant booklet. I remember being mystified by the admonition to "stay in your lane", and "do not change lanes". Of course, coming from Britain, I was used to changing lanes all the time, and spent about half my time overtaking other vehicles on two lane roads. But of course, I had good lane discipline like everyone else over there and never overtook on the "wrong" side. I think this "stay in your lane" mentality is what has led to the poor lane discipline in the US.

I don't much care for any kind of automated driving safety aids - even cruise control. But my greatest fear is, and always has been, falling asleep at the wheel. There is reportedly technology being developed which will do something about this, which I would support.

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

One much overlooked aspect of safety is road design itself. To consider is, surface, drainage, paved shoulder area, lane width, crossover barriers. There seems to be high tension wire dividing sprouting out of the ground everywhere here in Australia at the moment. From a motorcyclist point of view this stuff looks like a cheese grater.
Regards,
MB

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Jetmaker

You don't need to know how an airbag works. If you have modified your driving style because you now have airbags please let me know where you are driving and I'll give you a wide berth.

All of these driver aids (traction control, ABS, EBD, active steer) have the ultimate aim of linearising the vehicle response. This makes it much easier for the AVERAGE driver to cope with extreme situations.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Let me throw in a few cents....

Training. There are many types of driver training:

  - Initial "driver's ed" to get your first license. This is indisputably of value in reducing road accidents.

  - "Special ed"...race training, skid pad training, etc. I don't see much value for road drivers. Although my race training did get me to buckle up, every time.

- "Defensive driving" insurance companies in the US offer discounts for various types of defensive driving courses. I think most people take them for the discount, and it's in one ear, out the other.

Experience is probably the best teacher, as with mpst activities involving physical coordination.

As for government actions. I have a friend who sells radar cameras, the ones they use to track people who run red lights. The sales pitch is that ticket revenues can more than pay for the device if the "yellow light" time is shortened to whatever the NHTSA minimum is. I have no doubt most ticket campaigns only serve to fund more ticket campaigns. Are there any studies relating highway incidents to traffic enforcement?

The biggest safety problem we have in the US is that everyone is TAUGHT to drive in the leftmost lane. I can remember learning that from my father, and every driving teacher I had repeated the lesson...get over to the left as soon as you're on the highway. So you end up with someone poking along at 55, and everyone rushing past on the right. Madness.

Seat belts can do most of what air bags can, if they are used. I think that side air bags offer unique benefits. We'd also be a whole lot better off if people would drive something smaller than Mt. Everest. Vehicles with a lot of mass are a menace.

Color? There's an interesting one. Cops certainly like to ticket red cars, I'll tell you that from personal experience. But I think that blue is the most accident prone color.

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

EM,

As long as traffic law enforcement is seen by the authorities as a revenue thing rather than a safety thing, the problem will persist.  If they wanted safer drivers, they could have the problem solved in about a week, if they had that many ticket books pre printed.

However, then we would all toe the line, and their revenue streams would dry up.  They give just enough tickets to keep everyone "sort of" in line, and not so many so as to dry up their precious revenue.

Changing the topic to "stay in your lane."  I have learned something about USA driving in countries like Venezuela, Mexico and Brazil, among others.  We north americans drive with a "I'm an American, and I have my rights, and this is my lane, and you are not entitled to it, and I will hit you head on and kill both of us just to prove that I have my rights".

While in Venezuela, an expatriate north american commented to me once, when I pointed out that I had witnessed a scene where a vehicle passing a vehicle, (one was the bus I was riding in, passing a heavy truck) met two oncoming vehicles, both passing each other on a road that it would have seemed would barely have permitted one vehicle to pass only one other, both going the same direction, and every one scooted over, huddled up, (at about 90 klicks) and while it was very close, it worked out quite well.  Nobody panicked, no single finger gestures, just making it work.

The ex-pat stated that the drivers there (venezuela in this case) drove with the mentality that 'these roads aren't too good, and we are all going to have to do whatever it takes to get down them together.'

I watch this "this is my lane" mentality daily, where I have to turn off a 4 lane street into my office complex, and the driveway has an abrupt step up into the parking lot, so that it is mandatory to come to almost a complete stop before proceeding into the parking lot.  Time after time, to my amusement, people behind me will come to a virtual stop rather than just shifting to the left lane and going around me.  This is consistent, even when traffic is virtually non existant, which does happen at times.

So, don't let me find you in my lane, or I might have to head on you just to prove my point.

rmw

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
rmw

Interesting point.

In the countries where cars and a reasonable supporting infrastructure have been a very common part of our everyday life since before we were born, we have a set of values, habits, skills and customs re their use that has evolved over generations. When we see the chaotic and confused driving styles in the third world, we tend to consider them unskilled and dangerous.

Despite our presumed superiority in this regard, if we encounter a situation as listed above by rmw, even though 2 lane roads are sealed 22 to 24' wide, with smooth verges on either side, and most cars are less than 6' wide, such a situation would often result in a fatal head on or at least someone completely off the road. Surely if all involved were conditioned to co-operate, rather than blindly follow rules, and insist on rights, such incidence would be much safer.

Is this driver training, or psychological conditioning?

Maybe a holistic? approach to training would help.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
Now to be really controversial

I wonder what is the gross national cost to operate the motor vehicle fleet, including an hourly rate for the drivers and passengers for any given developed country, for say a year.

What level of efficiency are these machines being operated at. Would this be a level acceptable for other equipment being used in industry.

What would be the net cost of changing the operating speed when considering, running costs, maintainance, staffing costs and direct and indirect cost of failures and accidents.

Should we drive faster or slower?

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

I made a couple of races in Mexico City, '73 and '80.  I noticed that the freeways were marked out in lanes as in the U.S. but no one botherd to use them. I was told that the lane markers indicated what was supposed to be the normal traffic pattern, not necessarily the maximum. ie., it was not at all unusual to see SIX cars wide on a FOUR lane freeway!

Interesting questions,Pat, but I 'gotta make a race in Vegas this weekend so I'll see y'all Tuesday.

Rod

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

But there seems to be lots of roadside shrines, at least in Baja, anyway.

TTFN

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Not to beat a dead horse, but there are just as many shrines in AZ and CA if you look.  Baja is aptly named "Baja CALIFORNIA"---The rest of Mexico, most of it anyway,  is not at all like Baja!  I have towed race cars and  ridden a motorcycle all over Mexico many times and as long as I stayed away from the American tourists, all went well.  I hope that doesn't come off sounding too harsh, but it's a sad situation. Lo siento mucho, pero---

Rod

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Greg,

My major complaint about these devices is that it removes the driver skill from the operation.  ABS does not linearize a vehicle response.  Stopping distances still vary depending on road conditions, speed, vehcicle weight... so what is it linearizing?

It is important to know how the system works IMO.  Having driven early ABS equiped vehicles, I found the locking/unlocking action very unnerving.  My first response was to remove my foot from the brake and pump like I had been taught.  If I had not known that ABS did this, I might have made a bad situation worse.

Being originally from where snow was a common occurance, I much prefered having a full, yet manual, 4x4 system, and no ABS.  I found that the traction control would switch in and out, leaving me in situations where it would not engage when I was expecting it to.  Likewise, it engages when I would rather it not.  Maybe this makes me a control freak... who knows, but I would rather be in direct control of my vehicle than a co-pilot of it.

I just feel that some of the technological advances are actually lessening our ability.  Computers, calculators, automated machinery... these may all make us more efficient, but they also disconnect us from the actual skill involved to get the result.

Later,
jetmaker.

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

In my C5 Corvette, at least you can turn off the traction control and the active handling, but not the ABS. I am one of those people that even hates automatic transmission. When I first came to the States, I rememeber bemoaning the fact that nearly all US cars were so equipped, and an old guy in the office where I was working said "well, the trouble is, in this country they make cars for women to drive". This piece of jocular misogyny struck me as odd, because as a matter of fact I knew that even Queen Elizabeth was still pretty good with a stick shift - she learned to drive ambulances in WWII, at a time when women drove just about everything in Britain, including busses, with no power steering! So I think the reason for the love of "automatic everything" in the US lies elsewhere.

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
What!

No takers on the cost of speeding vs the cost of wasted man hours question, and comparing acceptable risk vs cost in industry vs roads.

Is this to political, or not true engineering?

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

skill?  

You'd rather be doing numerical integration point by point?  I'm getting answers on problems that would take days to do by hand.  

Think big picture...

TTFN

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

I'll post two replies

<Pat>

First you'd need a graph showing the 'cost' of speeding. I bet you can't find one, far too political.

The other bit is easy, of course.

<Jetmaker>

You did not understand what I meant by linearising.

If I brake at 0.3 g in a non ABS car, and turn the steering wheel, I go round the corner.

If I brake at 0.7g in a non ABS car, and turn the steering wheel I am quite likely to either plough on straight ahead or spin the car.

This is a non linear response as far as the driver is concerned. He's done the same thing in similar situations, yet in one case the car does one thing, in the other something else.

If I brake at 0.3 g in an ABS car, and turn the steering wheel, I go round the corner.

If I brake at 0.7g in an ABS car, and turn the steering wheel I will go round the corner.

The ABS car is more linear.


We shouldn't build cars for skilful drivers. We are catering to the 0-95th percentile driver, you know, the one who doesn't check his tyre pressures, who only replaces tyres when they are blatantly illegal, the one who thinks not being allowed to talk on his mobile phone while driving is an infringement on his personal liberty, the one who thinks that they can succesfully drive at 70 mph on a tightly packed freeway while yelling at the kids in the back seat and trying to stop them fight. Even, I dare say, YOU, occasionally.

If you want to use your skilz, go to a circuit. Road cars on public roads are not entertainment devices. (OK I'm being hypocritical here, but that is my /professional/ opinion).

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Something to consider. You wouldn't want people that are not qualified and experienced to fly an aircraft with you or others as passengers would you? You would want them to be very highly compentant, and skilled. And even more so in aerobatic flight, especially if that aircraft hits bad turbulance and flips over. Same goes for driving a car. Most people that are allowed to drive these potentially dangerous vehicles, are them selves afraid of the machine. And they most generally are so over loaded with trying to operate the vehicle they panic at every little thing that happens while on the road. Especially such things as hydroplaning in rain and slipping in ice. A high speed handling training program should be required to get a drivers license.  

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Well, enginebob, I just can't leave this one alone.  For the last 30 years, at least, I have been preaching driver training.  I have found one thing that appears to absolutely cast in stone---cars don't vote!  As long as 99% of the drivers on the road DO NOT POSESS THE NECESSARY SKILLS OR PRACTICAL TRAINING to avoid getting into emergency situations, and/or getting out of them, AND those very same drivers consider themselves ABOVE AVERAGE, there will be no revolution in skill training. (Sorry, Greg. 0 to 99th percentile is MY professional opinion based on U.S. drivers) Just try to pass legislation restricting driving privilage in California and see how long your political career lasts!  As long as this "ME" generation exists or until some catastrophic occurance, things are likely to continue 'as is' for the indefinate future.  That leaves "safety" in the hands of the engineers.  
If we can't prevent an accident, we can at least make it survivable.  
If we can't increase the skill level of the driver, we can at least make the automobile easier to control.
If we can't change the political nature of driver licensing, we can at least make accident avoidence our goal---for our own safety.
I truly understand the politics in all this and  I often find myself totally frustrated by what to me seems such an easily correctible situation, but to the folks in gov't. seems so totally unsolveable!

End of soap box.

Rod  

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Greg, Rod,

Greg,

Thanks for the clarification on the linearizing.  I see your arguement.  

Rod,

It is funny how the car manufacturers preach safety, yet install moving maps, TV systems, radios, vanity mirrors on the driver's side, etc....  


Honestly, better training/regulations will not improve the situation unless it is a recurrent training.  I took a very well respected driver's ed course when I was learning.  Although it gave me many skills that I might not have picked up, I must admit that not all the things I learned then do I still practice.

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
Rod

I do agree with driver skill training, but not really as a safety issue, but as a time/money saving issue.

I think there is evidence to support the argument that increasing a drivers skill and a cars handling and road holding, eventually increases confidence, resulting in the driver "using up" the extra safety margin by driving faster and closer.

Passive safety is another issue as I don't think it really increase our confidence, as drivers do not consciously drive to avoid fatal crashes, they consciously drive to avoid damaging their car.

jetmaker

I do not agree that it is a car makers responsibility to self legislate by removing features with marketing appeal, as this will only result in reduced sales for that car rather than increased safety on our roads. People will always buy what they want, not what is best for them.

To have a real effect, this needs to be done by government regulation, so the feature is unavailable no mater what brand or model is chosen by the buyer.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Based on what I have seen from behind the wheel in the US over the past 20 years, I conclude that a substantial percentage of drivers (probably greater than 50%) knowingly exceed the legal limits of vehicle operation on a daily basis. And they do so for their own convenience, to get where they need to go more quickly, believing that they will not be stopped and ticketed by the police. I suspect that this has more to do with their mindset and attitude than with any safety equipment or driver training that they may or may not possess.

As an example, if you were to sit on the shoulder of the road with a radar gun during rush hour on a major highway where the posted speed limit is 65 mph, what percentage of the drivers do you think will be traveling at or below the posted speed limit? 30%? 20%? Most would agree that the number is certainly below 50%. Why do they do it? They do it because they can get away with it, usually without suffering any consequences for this actions. Over time, if this is taken too far some drivers develop an attitude that the most important thing for them to do is to get where they are going, ignoring their responsibility for the safe operation of their vehicle. And this can have tragic consequences.

You can put state-of-the-art safety equipment on a vehicle, but I think that the average driver does not "push the limits" because they rationalize that this extra gear provides them with an additional margin of safety. I believe that they push the limits because they don't experience negative consequences for their actions. That is, until they get into an accident. The question is, how do you change the average driver's attitude to prevent an accident from happening in the first place?


                              Maui

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

"As long as 99% of the drivers on the road DO NOT POSESS THE NECESSARY SKILLS OR PRACTICAL TRAINING to avoid getting into emergency situations, and/or getting out of them, AND those very same drivers consider themselves ABOVE AVERAGE, there will be no revolution in skill training. "

I think in one respect, evelrod has hit the nail on the head. If 100% of the drivers on the road were of the mindset that they do *not* posess the necessary skills to get out of an emergency situation then all they'd have left would be to excercise the skills they've be given to avoid getting into those situations. I believe that failure to properly recognize personal limitations, as weighed against the veritable universe of unpredictable hazards is "the root of all evil", so to speak.

While I've realized recently that these days I'm driving more like an old fuddyduddy, I hadn't given much thought to what the underlying phiosophy was until I read this discussion.

That having been said, I'm not sure that a *revolution* in skill training is what's called for. The last training I had was my high school "Driver's Ed" class, in 1972. I'm sure my instructors would be proud to know that after all these years the message they were trying to teach then has finally sunk in.

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Driver impatience is the number one cause of accidents, IMHO.

Of course, how do you teach someone to wait until they sober-up before driving, or to drive more slowly on the roads during rain, or to drive the speed limit and be late for that dinner appointment, or to take their time waiting for a clear opening before pulling out into traffic?








RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

It is not speed that kills but bad driving. Unfortunately speed is easy to measure and makes money.

If speed really were the concern it is easily curbed.
In the UK the british police never drive at the speed limit unless they wish to control the trafic. They are either speeding themseleves to some incident or other (or off watch) or they are travelling at 5mph below the limit.

AT 5mph below the limit traffic slows, passes them at a legal rate and then, when two or three cars have interposed themseleves between the police car and themselves, they speed up again. This is known as the "legal bubble".

If and when the police drive at the limit, no traffic can pass them. This raidly creates a mobile road block and motorways can become blocked for miles.

In short, they can more effectively control the speed with one police car per 100 miles of road than a speed camera every mile. The fact that they don't speaks volumes.

JMW
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

How things seem to have changed in Britain. From what you say, it sounds just like the US now - ie pure misery. When I lived in Britain in the early seventies, I rarely paid any attention to speed limits, and never on motorways. I never saw anyone ticketed on motorways, and habitually drove in the fast lane at 100 mph. Occasionally, I would glance across and see a cop in the slow lane doing about 50. It didn't seem to bother them - live and let live. They didn't even have in-car radar - it was effectively like the autobahn. When I first started driving, it actually was  exactly like the autobahn - no speed limit at all. Pure heaven.

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Incidentally, I just read this on the Fox site:

A bill passed by the California state Senate would subject drivers who talk on the phone, put on makeup, drink, eat, smoke, interact with pets or kids, read, write, tune the radio or program hand-held devices like Blackberries to fines of $35 for the first offense and $150 for the second.

The bill is currently under review in the state House of Representatives. Not all senators are in favor of it, with state Sen. Tom McClintock saying it’s simply a cash cow to fill California’s lean piggy bank.

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Using a mobile phone while driving is now an offense in the UK. i.e. not using a hands free kit. A hands free car kit which hooks into the cars radio speakers and interupts the radio is ideal and allowed (still) but there are lots of non permanent kits available to provide hands free and of course, some phones have a hands free option when you have an earpiece connected.

I am therefore 100% behind this legislation; it makes sense and is achievable for any mobile phone user. Drivers with phones pressed to their ears are a real menace.

"Driving without due care and attention" covers a multi-tude of sins. and is easier to prosecute than the more serious "Dangerous Driving". I suspect it often gets used for convenience. Certainly there have been successful prosecutions of drivers eating chocolate bars as they drive.

There was a case some years ago where a driver was staying strictly to the speed limit on a dual carriageway but in the fast lane (The UK has a pass on the offside only law, much abused). Faster traffic would be brought to heel by this driver, would flash their lights, indicate and finally pass on the near side. Several car lengths back, in the nearside lane was an unmarked police car busy recording all those driveres who passed on the nearside before accelerating to ilegal speeds. The police finally prosecuted the "speed sherif" in the fast lane and called the other drivers as witnesses. I doubt it would happen in this day and age where every young coppers ambition is to book the minister of transport or chief constables in transit, but the point is that before the camera, the police would patrol the roads and would use address their powers against the silly, the stupid, the arrogant and the dangerous.
For all the cameras on the roads, including video and traffic management, one never hears that the technology is used to remove the dangerous drivers.

JMW
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

A last comment on speed:
The UK governement has decided that for minor speed camera offenses, only two points and a small fine will be levied but for serious offenses, the penalty increases from 4 points to six and a serious fine.

This is presented as a good deal.

Previously the speed cameras were often (but not exclusively)set only to detect serious offenses. SO far from being a concession this suggests a zero tolerance approach to generate even more money but without disqualifying the minor offenders, a cash grab... it no good disqualifying drivers after they've paid over just £120. This way they can catch far more drivers and keep them on the road for longer so they can pay more fines. A disqualified driver can't generate revenue.

JMW
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

jmw : Are you kidding ? A $150 fine for tuning the radio ? This is an outrageous piece of legislation and totally unenforcible! I thought I was living in the land of the free. When are governments going to treat people like responsible adults ? Of course, the next step would be to automatically disable the radio tuning controls when the vehicle is moving on cars sold in California, or any other state that passes similar legislation. Arnold - you have to put a stop to this ...

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Sorry - I know this isn't the grammar forum but "unenforcible" should have read "unenforceable".

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Lockout radio tuning while on the move?

Hmm. That is an excellent idea. Incredibly unpopular, but given that the average customer is  (snip usual rant) it would be a good step forward. I often pick up new cars with no preset radio stations. I once drove for 5 km (3 miles) while setting the radio up, and had no memory of that road when I finally surfaced.

So far as liberty goes, your freedom to move your fist stops at the skin of my nose.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

An excellent idea ??? Unless you too are kidding, give me a break Greg! But why stop there? Why not lock out the heating & ventilating and the GPS navigation controls as well? (In my car the heating controls are no less complicated than the radio). And naturally, all ashtrays need to be positioned out of reach of the driver. (Not that I care personally, being a non smoker). Then we will of course see all manner of people pulling over on the hard shoulder while they frantically struggle to change settings, and then pull back into traffic again - potentially causing more accidents than ever. And there will be a healthy market for aftermarket devices enabling one to override the lockout circuitry.  Of course, there will be the inevitable exceptions for law enforcement officers, who, unlike the rest of us, and being the highly trained professionals that they are, can easily manage to master the art of radio communications and controlling a plethora of other devices, even while simultaneously carrying out high speed pursuits. I suppose eventually everything will be hands free with voice recognition a la Star Trek. But that’s a ways away, and will no doubt usher in a new collection of problems.

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

I was serious.

Sure, click between presets, but I think there is a strong argument that no secondary control inside the car should need visual feedback.

I agree, people will circumvent these lockouts, OK, just make it punishable by the same penalty as any other roadworthiness defect.

50% of the customers won't fit lockouts, so that's a 50% reduction in these sorts of crashes anyway.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
Re devices and controls distracting drivers.

I think this one would need the backing of law, as no manufacture would risk the buyer backlash unless forced to.

Also adjustment of some functions of heater/climate control are necessary to maintain clear vision.

I also think that simple controls like radio volume and station search on the steering wheel are not to distracting.

A simple method would be to place the more attention demanding controls out of the drivers reach and view, but still in easy reach of the passenger.

I have to admit to shaving, eating, doing up neckties etc etc while driving, but I mitigate the offence by carefully selecting my timing of such distractions.

Also, some actions can be done virtually subconsciously, while others take our concentration.

Another distraction I notice, is that when in an involved conversation using hands free, I can still focus on traffic and road conditions, but I lose concentration on navigating, and often find myself cruising past turnoffs.

Also, I mount my mobile phone between the steering wheel and the "A" pillar, so it is in the blind spot created by the "A" pillar, and regards line of sight it is just beside the drivers side external mirror.

I have wondered why cars sold predominantly to company fleets, like Australia's Falcon and Commodore, don't actually build in a mobile phone mounting platform in that spot.

I also wire in the radio mute function on my Nokia mobile. The feature is standard on every Nokia I ever had, but very few seem to actually wire it in.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

In a recent accident case they found that the speeding driver had been watching a video on the in-car.
The best solution here is some kind of brain surgery.

You can't rely on passengers, if you have them. And in some cases they are more trouble and distraction than they are a help.

On long journeys it is not helped that the gender with the dominant genetic need to hold the steering wheel is usually the gender with map reading skills. It's at times like these that you realise that humans are, in some respects, badly designed. Ergo a talking navigational system is a reasonable idea but it had better have a gender neutral voice.

JMW
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Even with preset radio stations, the press buttons are too tiny and sensitive to find without looking at them. Remember the old radios with big klunky press buttons to select programs? You could run your finger along and count the buttons without accidentally changing station or selecting "auto seek" or some other function.

Jeff

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

As Pat said, we have the minimum necessary set of audio controls built into the steering wheel on one side, and the cruise control on the other. This means you can drive without ever needing to look further down than the speedometer.

I'd have thought voice operated climate control was an obvious step forward.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

I have a heads-up display in my Vette. I find it invaluable (mainly for speed) and really miss it when I'm in another car. There has been talk of diplaying much more stuff on these, such as navigation etc. At what point does such a display become too big and even more distracting, I wonder?

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Ahhhhh, boys and girls.  You make an old man's heart go pitter patter!  Like I said, I never met a driver that did not think that he was in full control of the situation (no matter what it was), at least before the accident/incident! Post accident/incident introspection often reveals, to the honest among us, the flaw in that assumption.
... Never fear, the "engineers" (us guys), urged on by the "bean counters"(who themselves have been whipped into a veritable frenzy by the politicians/press), will come up with another overly complicated, high tech solution for what could be basically a cheap and easy, if not popular, fix.  It is probably the best deal for those of you who still base your paycheque on the politically correct solutions to what is, to be sure, a political problem.  Re.---"cars don't vote...", above!

Greg---One dark night, many years ago, I "lost" quite a few miles doing something similar.  Also I have lost "hours" when driving cross country just last year---scary stuff!!!

Rod

PS:  Generally I do not listen to the radio while driving---it interferes with my "overly active imagination"

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

"I never met a driver that did not think that he was in full control of the situation (no matter what it was),..."

Which goes back to my comment earlier--I've learned that while I may be in full control of my own vehicle at all times, there can always be some element of "the situation" which may arise instantaneously, and be totally beyond my control...

As an aside, with reference to "speed traps"--Somewhere along the way I've come to believe that anyone who gets a speeding ticket deserves it. Why? Because a hidden cop with a radar gun is a prime example of a part of "the situation" that's outside of the driver's control. If your situational awareness is not sufficient to detect the speed trap and avoid the ticket, then what other (more potentially dangerous), hazards are you failing to detect?

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
digger

I never saw a hazard that travels toward you at the speed of light.

A radar trap can get you from so far away, that you might stop before reaching the source of it without even touching the brakes.

Does a policeman, deliberately hiding on the other side of the Armco, and behind a bush, about 500 yards away truly replicate a potential hazard that needs spotting.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
EnglishMuffin

I would be concerned with anything much more than a speedo, and maybe a tacho being in a heads up display.

I have seen several fatal accidents in circumstances where speedo watching was probably a major contributing factor.

The situation was, a short section of a scenic riverside drive, on the outskirts of Sydney. The drive went through about 1 kilometre of national park. The accident record on this stretch was no worse than average with an 80 kph speed limit, which was not regularly enforced, because the reasonably narrow, bumpy, undulating and winding road, with trees close to the verge, did not invite normal people to drive over the speed limit. I lived in the area for about 3 years with no fatalities on the section.

The speed limit was reduced to 60 kph, as a result of pressure from nature lovers, who felt that cars travelling at lower speeds might not kill as many birds, lizards, snakes nor Possums.

I never saw the figures for the before and after results re fatalities with wildlife, however there was suddenly a spate of fatal accidents, at least 2 of which involved mothers driving people mover type vehicles with children aboard. In the 2 incidences where I know some details, both drivers were travelling down a short but steep hill, with a left hand curve, with a bump mid curve. Slightly further downhill from the curve was a spot favoured by the highway patrol to set up speed traps.

I surmise, that the ladies, not being particularly skilled nor attentive drivers, but also being far from you typical petrol heads or hoons, became aware that they had built up speed while travelling down the hill, being aware of the strong possibility of a radar speed trap being around the corner, they looked at their speedo as they rounded the curve, they hit the bump with the brakes on. The Mums taxi type cars, probably had mediocre tyres, shock absorbers (dampers to some) and suspension design. They rebounded of the bump, into oncoming trucks, with the normal results of a head on collision between a 1 tonne van and a 30 tonne truck.

I suspect that if the limit was 80 kph, they would have been doing the same speed, maybe steadied on the brakes, but they would have had their eyes on the road, and not swerved into oncoming traffic.

I based some of this on my experience at the same spot. Being an incorrigible speedster at the time, I often came through that section of road at about 90 to 120 kph, and as I am quite experienced at the limits of adhesion, and a little beyond.

After the reduction in the limit, I tended to pretty well respect the limit because of the dramatically increased enforcement. Being aware of the trap, I braked heavily on the same bend, hit the bump, and fought to keep a well maintained Honda CRX on the correct side of the road. At the time I wondered how someone with less experience, less concentration and a less stable car, might have fared.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

patprimmer: Since race cars never have speedometers, or at least they didn't used to when I followed motor racing, it would seem that the only reason a skilled, or perhaps even an unskilled, driver would need one would be to avoid speeding tickets. But given that we are expected to refer to them, I would have thought that a heads up display would be preferable. It certainly slows me down.
I was recently reading the biography of Stirling Moss, who gave up motor racing after a tragic crash in the sixties. His incredible peripheral vision was damaged, and he found that he could no longer read the rev counter without taking his eyes of the road, which he found to be quite unacceptable.
By the way :
".......but also being far from you typical petrol heads or hoons...".
What, may I ask, is a hoon ? I ask merely because the context seems to imply that I  might be one.

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

This has been an interesting thread. Watching the "cop" shows on TV, as well as driving thru both metropolitan and rural areas around the world for the last 35+ years, I've seen some really stupid drivers. Or at least their actions were stupid. Is it because they figure the safety equipment will protect them? I doubt it. Many of these cars don't have anything other than seat belts (which are rarely in use) or in such bad shape safety equipment probably wouldn't work anyway. Is it because they're driving an SUV? Maybe, but since they tower over the smaller vehicles, and I figure their drivers figure they will just "roll over them critters". Or, is it because many drivers just don't know a (better) way?

I consider myself a safe driver; one of those "above average" drivers Rod or Greg mentioned. I learned how to drive from my father, who was a travelling salesman, putting 100,000 miles on his car each year. I also learned from my uncle and brother (both professional OTR truck drivers), as well as in high school and in "driver training" schools put on by local BMW and Porsche clubs. Then, I ride a motorcycle almost daily, which calls for keen observation of other traffic to stay alive.

IMHO, few drivers pay attention to others on the road. The "ME" attitude prevails, at least here in the U.S. Add that to lack of intelligence, training, or just courtesy, and you've got a big problem. If that's the way younger drivers are taught, then that's the way they will drive as well.

"Safe" vehicles have been designed and built, but no one wants them. They take away some of the independence a vehicle provides. I think we need better education, better screening, and better law enforcement to reduce accidents.

Just my $0.02 ...

     . . . Steve

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Very interesting discussion!

The item that really seems to hit home for me is driver ATTITUDE.  The "this is my lane" mentality seems to be frightenly too familar to me.  No amount of gadgets or training will fight off someone trying to prove a point for the "principal of it".

For whatever reason many people think they "OWN" the road and have a "RIGHT" to be in that spot.  Some people also appear to think someone is trying to "prove" something by driving faster.  This attitude causes as much problems as anything.

It brings to mind a recent instance that I had:  Driving on the interstate a p/u pulls over to pass another car as I'm approcahing from behind.  I catch up, slow down and follow at a slow pace.  As the p/u gets near the front of the car I pick up the pace, timing it so I'll be back "up to speed" when he changes lanes.  I'm coming up, he signals to get over, I ease on the gas a little more.  Then I see him look at me in his side mirror, signal goes off, and he stays in the "fastlane".  I slow up, follow for a few seconds, have the co-pilot check the other lane..CLEAR.  I signal, go around, and continue on a merry way.  1/4 mile up the road I check my rearview, he signals and gets over.  I don't get it!?


It's interesting for me to look at the "this is my lane" attitude and look at speed limits.  Even those drivers that will "share" their lane with you tend to be slow getting out of the way due to the speed (i.e won't speed up).  While I will speed up to free up the road, I have been at times hesitant to do so in fear of getting "another" ticket.  I suppose it's possible that the speed limits may encourage the "my lane" attitude that many have here in the states.  "I'm going fast enough"


Another point that has bothered me for years is speed limits.  I agree they are there for revenue but I can also see the purpose.  The item about them that bothers me is who is usually targeted by them.  Many cars that I see pulled over are sports cars while the mountain-sized SUV's go cruising by.

I myself drive a little on the fast side, I'm at that age I guess, and the one thing that never ceases to amaze me are the cars that pass me.  I drive a track-preped german car set-up to cruise all day long on the autobahn.  Cruising at 80mph on a rural Iowa interstate is a cake walk.  Yet, 80-90% of the cars that pass me are SUV's OR cars that have been reinforced with duct tape.  The larger the SUV the faster they are going.  I'll give you one guess which car gets pulled over; I'll give you a hint, it's not them.

As I said, I can understand the purpose of speed limts but at some point common sense has to come in.  Don't initially look for the sports car, the car built for the speed, look for the one that's "trail-rated" that isn't as capable at those speeds.  Pulling over the sports cars first thing for speeding seems to be an oxy-moron.

Enough.  That's bugged me for years.

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
A good friend of mine owns both a Porsche 911 Carrera and a Toyota Land Cruiser. When he wants to cruise, or impress a young lady, he takes the Porsche, but when he is in a hurry and will most probably be speeding, he takes the Toyota, because it reduces the chance of getting a ticket. I wonder what that does for the safety of himself and others?

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

He's made the right decision for himself. If you don't roll it over then an SUV is pretty good at protecting its occupants. Since most rollovers are driver initiated, that is up to him.

Sadly the same cannot be said for the econo-shopper he might run into. Newton wrote the laws down.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

This thread is getting a bit long---I will try to make this my final comment on 'engineered safety' vs. 'driver stupidity'---

From this mornings "Californian" (San Diego North County Times)---Tuesday, May 25, 2004

"John S****, 61, of Murrieta was pronounced dead at 6:53 a.m. at Inland Valley Medical Center in Wildomar..."
"S**** was headed east on Clinton Kieth Road at an estimated 35 mph when, for an unknown reason, his Dodge Intrepid swerved and hit the south curb and he jerked the car back to the left, according to the California Highway Patrol report"
"Instead of braking, however, S**** accelerated, which sent the car airborne over the north edge of the road..."
"The Dodge flipped (into) a gully ejecting S****, who was not wearing his seat belt..."

In my humble opinion---
 
Ignorance can be cured through education---
Ability can be enhanced through proper training and practice---
Stupidity is life long and totally incurable---

'nuff said!

Rod

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
EnglishMuffin

Sorry I overlooked one of your questions.

A hoon is a reckless and aggressive driver, who is mostly teen aged male, often wears a baseball cap on backward when driving, participates in illegal street car racing in souped up noisy cars with an exaggerated race car look. They spin the wheels a lot to create smoke and noise, often quite deliberately to create attention. They also have a tendency to have their radios exceptionally loud.

The term will also be more lightheartedly applied to anyone who is more mature and should know better, who shows even a slight tendency to any one of the above characteristics.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
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RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

(OP)
I think Rod is right. This is to long, and got more responses with a greater variety than I anticipated. I should have asked the individual questions as separate threads.

Unfortunately it is almost entirely opinion, with little real supporting scientifically collected data.

As I agree with pretty well everything that has been said, but I was hoping that somewhere out there, you guys would have access to real data.

I have an appointment this morning, but i will try to summarise this evening

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

Oh, I thought it might have had something to do with the current British Defense Secretary Geoffrey Hoon. I used to be a hoon a long time ago. Ah, those were the days. Even got thrown off Brands Hatch race track one evening for going too fast. (That was in the days when you could drive round the circuit in your road car on weekday evenings - but the trouble in my case, according to the circuit manager, was that they didn't have an ambulance at the ready). I never returned.

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

This is kinda a late post, but I had a recent experience that feels relevant to this. I was out with a friend at a bar one night and after 3 hours and 2 drinks each, we left. This should put my bac at about .02. I am driving back on a small highway with 1 lane in each direction in my trans-am at about 60 mph, 5 mph over the limit but easily handled in that kind of car. As I finish pulling around a curve in the road, I am looking at a car in my lane in reverse backing down the highway. Luckily it was late and I just passed him on the opposite side of the road, but leaving a bar and rear-ending another car always looks bad on a police report.

Long story but, it proves other drivers desicions can end up putting you in a bad place. There has been alot of talk on this post about teaching more advanced skills before giving a driver a license, sometimes I think the basics don't sink in.

RE: Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit

"  - Initial "driver's ed" to get your first license. This is indisputably of value in reducing road accidents."
This was widely believed to be statistically accurate for several decades (beginning in the 1960s), and qualified for lower insurance rates, etc.
Until a comparison was done with students who requested the course, but either never actually enrolled, dropped out due to re-location, illness, money, etc.
Same accident rates.
The "safety" was entirely the result of a higher level of interest and awareness on the part of the prospective student, not any skills they acquired from the course.
How many other fictional and misleading "studies" have affected out lives?
BTW: I have attempted to discover which factors insurance companies use to determine rates, and was horrified to find that they only use the "politically correct" ones - that are socially acceptable.
The accident rate per mile difference among elderly women is really scary, but the AARP goes nuclear if this is used.

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