Eats Shoots & Leaves
Eats Shoots & Leaves
(OP)
I just heard about a new book by Lynne Truss (Gotham Books) published in Britain. From the little I know of it, it is a winner. The title is above. It is a grammar/punctuation book.
I have ordered the book from Barnes and Noble for US$12.50.
jimbo
I have ordered the book from Barnes and Noble for US$12.50.
jimbo
Buy a dictionary, keep it nearby and USE it. Webster's New World Dictionary of American English is recommended, and Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.





RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
large" ?
<nbucska@pcperipherals.com>
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RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
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RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
So how was English taught? Simply by having us produce hand written essays, which were then "marked" by the teachers (or masters, as they were then called). It was rare to have an essay returned without numerous corrections relating to spelling, punctuation, grammar or style, and of course this was long before the days of word processors and spelling checkers. Why does this method no longer work? Is it because it is too time consuming? Is it because modern teachers think that this approach stifles creativity? Is it just that nobody cares any more? Or is it because automatic spelling and grammar checkers are supposed to have taken over the routine task of making corrections? In this regard it is worth noting that this post already contains two grammatical "errors" according to my "Word" spell checker, which I have no intention of altering, and this draws attention to the extreme difficulty of reducing everything to a set of rules – much harder than writing chess programs, for example. And this in spite of the fact that a few years ago we were confidently being told that "artificial intelligence" would soon have such a simple matter as "automated writing" under control.
So it still seems to me that the only way to teach English is to have a human being make continual little nit-picky corrections to people’s work. Somebody once pointed out to me that the reason most foreigners speak their non-native tongue so poorly is that the moment their grammar improves to the point where they can be understood, they stop improving. Nobody is impolite enough, or bothered enough, to correct every little mistake they make from then on, and in any case, their version of the language is sometimes not without a charm of its own. A famous example of this would be the Hungarian character actor S.C. Sakall who played, among many other roles, the Maitre D’ in the film “Casablanca”, and actually spoke in real life with exactly the same fractured English that the script writers always wrote specially for him. When asked by a fellow actor why he couldn’t make a better effort to speak English correctly, he replied “and vy mit dees English I am making more vot is you?”.
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
I had to give you a star, your post is so on the mark. I find myself correcting the verbal exchanges between the shop personnel and myself. I do this not in a group but one on one.
He says "I aint got no mor paats" I say, What? you have'nt any more parts? he says "What" or "Huh".
I'm done.
Iam wasting my time, and he his, because the dialog becomes some sort of game to him and the others in the shop. They are not looking to better themselves by expressing themselves in a more correct way. They reject what you provide them and are content to stay in the "perverbial" gutter!
I am not perfect either but I try to correct an error once I learn how incorrect I have been.
Count the errors in this post and let me know.
Regards
pennpoint
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
You have just explained to me why my spanish is stuck at the level that it is. My daughter, who teaches spanish at the university level, says, "my daddy's spanish, well it is interesting." Fortunately, I am blessed by being associated with those (native spanish speakers) who will, from time to time, take the time to correct me, and I view it as beneficial, rather than "nit picky corrections" as, that is how I learned my native tongue, at the feet of a tough taskmaster, my own mother, who had an excellent grasp of the language and wanted the best out of me. She made me take latin, too, by the way, which led to portugese in the military, which led to spanish later in my professional life. German I learned a little of just for the fun of it.
The spanish is constantly improving, but your insight above will only serve to help motivate me not to "stagnate" at a get-by level.
rmw
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But there have been remarkable examples of non-native English speakers who learned the language relatively late in life, and yet achieved a flawless mastery. One such example that comes to mind is that of Joseph Conrad (Heart of Darkness, Lord Jim, The Secret Agent etc). He was a Pole, whose original name was Korzeniowski, and he spoke not a word of English until he was in his twenties. Whether he spoke with an accent I have no idea, but a man from a later era, the British business executive Robert Maxwell, certainly didn't. To hear him speak you would think that he was most probably the product of an English private school education, but he was actually a Czechoslovakian who spoke nine languages fluently, and whose real name was Jan Ludwik Hoch. So apparently mastery can be achieved without the continual presence of didactic and nit-picky companions, if you are lucky enough to have talent and a good ear for language, which unfortunately few of us do. Perhaps it should be mentioned that Conrad married an English woman, which might have been of some assistance to him.
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However, one professor, internationally famous in his field, had a terribly thick Chinese accent. There was no text for his course, "stress wave propagation in solids"; just his lecture notes. 9 of the twelve students were also Chinese but they all apparently spoke different dialects of Chinese and this affected how they knew and spoke English. They and the professor also could barely understand each other while speaking in English. It was a horrible farce. How could I learn the material presented without a text book and presented by someone with such a horrible accent? A farce, I say. This might have been acceptable at a private school but should have been unacceptable at a state university; the Dean should have sent this fellow to the language lab regularly. The saddest thing was that this professor had been in the United for almost 30 years with little effect on his speech.
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rmw
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This is a bit of a problem as I blame her for the fact that i now tend to speak broken english which i didn't before, being, once, a native english speaker.
Interestingly, this book opens with the claim that the Russian Revolution was started in St Petersburg when print workers went on strike to claim the same money for the punctuation as for the ordinary letters. I assume this to be a tongue-in-cheek remark since when i was last in St. Petersburg my Russian Host posed me outside the πPAVDA office and told me this is where Lenin worked and that he started it all off. It must have been a slow news day.
JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
eng-tips, Pro bono publico
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"Si tacuisses philosophus mansisses"
"If you had kept quiet, you would have remained a philosopher"
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
Two professors stood out: A. S. 'Andy' Veletsos (indeterminate structures and structural dynamics) and Pit Man Wong (vector calculus.) Dr. Veletsos was from Greece, while Dr. Wong was from Hong Kong (I think.) Both men were quite meticulous and hard working; I think that has something with their command of English. Both are excellent teachers, too, although Dr. Wong had difficulty with pronunciation.
I didn't encounter the 'lazy speaker syndrome' until I entered the work force. My personal observation continues to be that the better English speakers are also thoughtful, meticulous and hard working engineers. It isn't always true, of course - but it does seem to be more the rule than the exception.
Please see FAQ731-376 for great suggestions on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora. See FAQ158-922 for recommendations regarding the question, "How Do You Evaluate Fill Settlement Beneath Structures?"
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
I constantly have to "interpret" the english of business associates from other countries who speak english very well, but still build their sentences like they build them in their native language, which, of course, makes no sense to those in my country who are mono-lingual, and have never had to try to understand another language.
I find myself translating their english into english.
rmw
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The UN has American-English tranlators...
<nbucska@pcperipherals.com>
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My nephew(10) and niece(8) who are Los Angeles born and bred, and with an English mother, were once ganging up on their elder cousin who was baby sitting them, criticising her english (which, even though it is not her first language, is actually very good, so this was not a fair critisism).
She responded by saying that she speaks two languages. How many did they speak?
"Two" they answered without pause.
"What?"
"English and American".
"So what's the difference?" she asked.
"One's with an accent and one's without."
I never discovered which one they considered was the one with the accent.
JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
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RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
A dialect, on the other hand, may include pronunciation, but also includes grammar variations, vocabulary variations, and other speech patterns and jargon.
It sounds like the NPR language "expert" is trying to make dialect and accent mutually exclusive and I don't believe they are. How many times have we heard an native English speaking actor speak with a foreign accent? I submit that there are both southern accents and southern dialects and someone can speek with both a southern dialect and accent. A southerner can also speek the Queen's English with a southern accent, or can speek a southern dialect with a British accent.
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RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
"Irregardless" of what we may think.
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I was tought that "Irregardless" is not correct.
It's just "regardless"
I guess, I had to pick on somthing!
pennpoint
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This forum is all about the importance of spelling and grammar for engineers.
Engineers appear to accept, some grudgingly, that grammar and spelling are both important to our professional approach to presenting ideas.
So how much worse is it for employees in the media, where language is arguably more than just a tool, that spelling and grammar are vitally important?
Too often, these days, TV presenters and radio announcers, are often very poorly educated in grammar and pronounciation. I woulod expect that for the media it would be of paramount importance to select only those candidates who meet very exacting standards. This is critical because we all know that many "learned" language skills are now derived more from the media than from the classroom.
I also have a (lesser) problem with regional dialects being so prevalent in national broadcasting channels. I have no problem with regional accents, or even dialects (complete with there unique grammar and special words, e.g. all those viking words and phrases still to be found in Yorkshire speech, on regonal stations.
JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
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Almost as interesting; my cousins (Chinese) speaking with a Southern accent
TTFN
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A linguist would not have a problem with it (in spoken language), but of course grammarians would, and do.
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You get a star from me for the "irregardless" quip. I'm just sorry you had to explain it.
rmw
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http://onelook.com/?w=irregardless&ls=a
The following link is worth a read:
http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-irr1.htm
TTFN
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All of the references given in the link have similar descriptions/definitions. When I hear "irregardless" used by someone I always chuckle quietly to myself.
Have a Great Day,
ietech
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Point being that we seem to be particularly anal about "irregardless," even though it's no different than using "unravel."
TTFN
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
If I am reading that correctly, then ravel can go either way, to separate or to tangle. Perhaps that can be a discussion in and of itself. But what it does suggest is that unravel disambiguates the intended meaning, therefore, would not always be a double negative.
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
Well if you choose to use the word based on all of the information given in the reference material you provided, then so be it. Your choice of authority must be correct.
Other than unravel and debone, with which I do not have a problem, I personally have never heard the others mentioned in current times. Is it possible that their popularity did not carry forward from the centuries past? I have heard all them used frequently without the prefix "un".
I for one will not articulate irregardless, and will be proudly "ANAL" in eliminating it from my personal vocabulary. (Anal being your description of myself and those who think as I do.)
Thanks for the insight,
ietech
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I have done something which is a rare event for me-I bought a book.
Usually I go to the library, but this is a new book, published this month in the US. It is "Eats Shoots & Leaves" by Lynne Truss of Britain. "A Zero Tolerance to Punctuation".
Example:
"A panda walks into a cafe and orders a sandwich. After he eats, he pulls out a gun and fires two shots in the air. As he's leaving, he tosses a poorly punctuated wildlife manual over his shoulder. The waiter reads, 'Panda: a large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves'."
US$12.25 plus shipping.
Buy a dictionary, keep it nearby and USE it. Webster's New World Dictionary of American English is recommended, and Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
-----------------------------------
Start each new day with a smile.
Get it over with.
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
TTFN
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
Back in high school, I learnt German for 5 years as my second language, and became almost fluent in it. (Sadly, 90% or more of what I learnt has since been forgotten, due to lack of use.) What I didn't realise at the time was that the text books and accompanying audio material that was used in my school came from America, and taught us how to speak the dialect of German as spoken in Bavaria, but with a west-coast American accent!
When I first visited Germany, I could hardly understand anyone, and very few people could understand me.
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TTFN
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Some Japanese, on their first visit to London, had learned English from a TEFAL teacher, and believed they were well equipped to enjoy their visit.
In this case "Teaching English as a Foreign Language" had taken on a double meaning as they were perplexed to discover that their teacher had been a Glaswegian and that they spoke English with a broad Glasgow accent and could not easily make themselves understood.
JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
My usage bible, The Elements of Style, by Strunk & White, makes no allowance for any usage of "irregardless", saying simply that it should be replaced by "regardless". I've always found it to be particularly annoying, especially when I see it in written reports.
It may be that repeated usage will cause it to become an accepted word in standard English. "Hopefully" not.
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By the way, I liked your post. I am reminded of a time when I read a novel by Charlotte Bronte. I knew I'd been reading a particular sentence for a very long time. I then backtracked and was amazed to see that it actually comprised the full paragraph (and a very lengthy one at that).
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I know this is off the subject but just this past week I checked out from the library the video Jane Eyre (spelling?) which I think was written by Charlotte's sister, Emily. Anyway -- I guess if one is that talented, as in the case of the Bronte's, you can get away with the unusual.
Jesus is THE life,
Leonard
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
I'd like to see the error posted in this thread, if someone with the book will oblige me.
xnuke
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RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
I've always had a nagging irritation with putting punctuations inside of quotes that didn't seem to quite belong.
TTFN
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
I will quote IRStuff where he says: "I've always had a nagging irritation with putting punctuations inside of quotes that didn't seem to quite belong.".
Now you see the problem. I have within the quotes, a complete sentance which has its own final punctuation mark. The quotation ends my own sentance and hence there is another punctuation mark. You're telling me this is wrong?
JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
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RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
xnuke
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
... seem to quite belong." (US Style) or
... seem to quite belong". (British Style),
but in either case, you only use one period if you're at the end of the sentence.
However, if the quoted sentence and you quoting sentence do not end concurrently, then you would use two periods.
He said, "I'll meet you at 2:00.", and he meant it.
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Just kidding, thanks CajunCenturion.
JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
I read Page 2 3 times and don't see any problem.
Anyway,
"If your tree has a dead branch, do you cut down the tree?"
It has been said that "you can't judge a book by its cover".
I believe that you can't judge a book by one page.
Later in the book is a discussion of the British method / American method of end quotes and a period v a period and end quotes.
Each is correct in its own counmtry.
I read the entire book. It is a delight.
Buy a dictionary, keep it nearby and USE it. Webster's New World Dictionary of American English is recommended, and Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
One (of several) language faux-pas that bothers me a lot is the split infinitive. Ten years ago, computer spelling and grammar checks highlighted split infinitives, but I don't see that anymore today.
The use of the word "impact" as a verb, substituted for the word "affect" also bothers me. A tooth by definition is impacted; an action, however, can have an impact.
And the use of the word "however" not placed parenthetically within the body of a sentence also bothers me.
I could go on, but I suspect I may be preaching to the choir.
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By going to the tools/options/grammar/style i find that for split infinitives it says "split infinitives (more than one)". Curious? does this mean Andy Warhohl wrote the rules and just as we each get 15 minutes of fame we are also allowed our one split infinitive? Why the caveat?
JMW
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Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
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RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
The caveat suggests that the first split infinitive of whatever nature, will be permitted but all subsequent split infinitives will be highlighted and this also suggests we intentionaly split our infinitive the first time we did it.
JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
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RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
So if we don't like split infinitives (though our sub-concious does) we would welcome a split infinitive detection for all split inifinitives. We can then decide that we were actually making a point (e.g. writing about split infinitives).
Alternatively, we may decide we like to split our infinitives. In which case, sooner or later, we will get ticked off about the officious grammar checker forever nagging at us and figure out how to turn this option off.
So either way we can make choices.
But i still don;t see why the actual option is to allow the first split infinitive (no matter how much we hate them) and thereafter to prompt us.
This seems perverse.
Of course, the engineer in me is also figuring that if this is such a good idea, why can't i configure how many split infinitives to allow before prompting me. I ought to be able to program that in. While I'm at it, why doesn't spell checker let through the first spelling error and then let me chose to correct or keep all subsequent errors?
JMW
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RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
"notice" is a noun and is "owned" by "two weeks"
"pregnant" is an adjective and is modified by "four months"
Jeff
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
The "no-hyphen" problem is more often manifested by writers in the form of too few commas. Commas should be used to separate unrelated, individual modifiers of a single noun. Note that if I had fallen victim to my own pet peeve, I would have written "unrelated individual modifiers." Would that mean modifiers of unrelated individuals? Since I was a kid, I always got a kick out of wondering about the title of an old nonsense song (listening to which no one could really determine the position, if any, of commas or hyphens) called "Purple People Eaters." Was the song about eaters of purple people, or about purple eaters of people?
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
Yesterday, in the UK Parliament, protesters flour bombed Tony Blair from the House of Lords guest gallery (the public viewing gallery has just had a £600,000 armoured glass screen errected; the flour bombs wer lilac dyed flour packed in condoms).
Visitors to the Lords guest gallery are supposed to be personally known to the member of the peerage who gives out the passes but in this case a Barroness had raffled her tickets.
Somewhat naive, is how one commentator described her actions.
But, apropos Shetwynds comment, the following headline appeared to me a bit cheeky, in this day and age, to use to describe the 71 year old Barroness:
"Old Labour Barroness appoligises to House of Lords"
This would have been less ambiguous written as "Old-Labour Barroness....", as clarified in the opening paragraph where it describes her as recently appointed and for 22 years a member of Old Labour.
Is this another example of gramatical failings amongst the media? or an above average wit on the newspapers staff?
One thing is for sure, the Barroness will not have been amused.
I now regret not having read more of the article to determine if this "Old Labour" Barroness was appologising for her naivity in raffling the tickets or for not having found a citizen with more imagination on what to do about "New Labour" Tony.
JMW
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RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
Would we ever want to say "five gallons' bucket" or "three rings' circus?"
If the intention is to give a notice that in two weeks something will happen then I think two weeks' notice is not the best; the main subject is the notice so the "two weeks'" should not posess it. If after two weeks of something fabulous happening to you, you post a notice then two weeks' notice seems appropriate since the main subject is the two weeks.
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
The issue was resolved when an exclamation mark was triumphantly added to "Oklahoma".
(Helene Hanff, "Undefoot in Show Business").
JMW
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RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
The author is concerned that the Internet and modern technology may lead to the death of punctuation.
Are e-mails and text messaging the harbingers of doom? No.
The recurrent Frankenstein theme always tends to suggest that each piece of new technology means the end of the world as we know it and then, well then it turns out not to be so bad after all; in fact, quite useful.
The languages of e-mails and text messages are as much a transient phenomena as the brevity of telegrams and for the same reason: limitations of the technology.
Soon all mobile phones will have “qwerty” keyboards, a useful screen and MS Compatible or MS cut-down programs, whether you want it or not.
As for e-mails, when you work in Outlook you can chose Word as you text editor.
The PC brings us spelling and grammar checkers.
Now we have speech to text. Will not punctuation checkers become more necessary than before?
Now here is a funny thing; the spell checker, instead of making me lazier than before, has had the opposite effect - it is enabled by default - all that green and red squiggly underlining is b****y irritating. Never enough so that I will go and turn it off, but enough so that I can now spell “necessary” without hesitation.
Even my grammar is improving and, by the laws of Bill Gates, no sentence is ever more than sixty words long (I just need a rambling checker). Of course, I still struggle with “Fragmented” and “Passive voice” and I dread the day that I have to speak with a Californian accent to get my speech recognition programs to work, or find the right menu and change to the “Thames Estuary” or “Devon Farmer” options.
So surely, all we need do to save the [English] language, grammar, spelling and punctuation, etc. is to slip BG another couple of billion to configure the defaults for preservation and make it damn difficult to find the default settings, let alone change them or switch them off.
Of course, we also have to persuade him to cut down on the 19 different English language version options; and maybe stop supplying software for German or French, for example (or, much the same thing, charge a whopping premium for them).
But wouldn’t it be strange if BG accomplished for education than countless generations of teachers trying to beat it into us?
JMW
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RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
No, I didn't do it, and I don't know who did. Your post is fine.
jimbo
Buy a dictionary, keep it nearby and USE it. Webster's New World Dictionary of American English is recommended, and Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.
RE: Eats Shoots & Leaves
JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.