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PDM, WHAT TO DO?

PDM, WHAT TO DO?

PDM, WHAT TO DO?

(OP)
Hello,
        I've got somewhat of a dilema and I'm looking for some insight from someone who has gone through this before.  Our company has been working for some time with no PDM solution.  We started with 2 Solidworks usuers and now we have 12 dedicated SW usuers and several Autocad usuers.  We have made a company decision to use SmartTeam as our PLM company wide solution to incorporate workflow,routing, etc.

We have also considered using PDMworks as the PDM solution for Engineering.

What I am trying to determine is what makes more sense..

1.  Organize TONS of legacy data and incorporate into PDMworks and let SmartTeam run 'over' PDMworks or

2. Organize all data and rely strictly on SmartTeam for everything?

Keep in mind, we have been running for 5-6 years with nothing so I relaize it is going to be a major task either way.  I'm not sure that I want to go through 2 learning processes, Using PDMworks, then Using SmartTeam.

Does PDMworks offer me anything that SmartTeam doesn't or vise versa?

Not suprisingly, I'm getting conflicting info from the sales guys.  SW sales guys "yes, you need to run PDMworks and let SmartTeam pull from that vault"  SmartTeam Sales guys "no need to put another layer in there, SmartTeam can do it all".  What do you users have to say?

Thanks for any input.

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

I don't know much about SmartTeam. We use PDMW and we have no troubles at all. It takes time to organize all of the existing file into PDMW, but is worth it. We have not a need for ST.

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

We started with SmarTeam and yes it will do everything. The problem we had was no time or money to hire someone who knew SmarTeam. One of our smartest learned from the SmarTeam manual after our 3-day training from our VAR. The administrators I believe got an extra 2 days of training. We messed it up so bad that the quote to fix it was $27,000.
My suggestion if you are going to use SmarTeam is to have a trained SmarTeam professional who knows engineering come in and setup a turnkey system for you. After all that is done, make sure that everyone who needs SmarTeam gets a seat. The cost of SmarTeam is not the same as PDM Works. If you are required to have everything that SmarTeam does, then I see that there is no question. We only needed to control our SolidWorks models, AutoCAD, MSWord and the like.

Bradley

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

You would be doing yourself a favor if you check out the ADEPT software by Synergis.  They are a gold partner and we are currently looking at their product.  They have been very responsive to all of our questions and they have recorded web demos that are available for downloading.  This will let you carefully review their software at your own convience.

Good luck in your search for a pdm system.

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

(OP)
Thanks to all for the input.  

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

alexsasdad,

I looked at Synergis' website and could find no mention of SolidWorks, let alone anything about them being a gold partner with SolidWorks.  They sure seem to have AutoCAD/Inventor covered, however.

Does anybody just do PDM manually with good success?

Tim

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

We have over 40 users and have been on SWx since 97 using a "manual" PDM process, but I would not say with good success.  We have had problems with files being overwritten, keeping the references straight during the archiving process, and are now fighting with a concurrent engineering project.

We are in the middle of purchasing DBWorks (http://62.101.95.130/mechworks/index.asp).  It does everything we needed, including workflow/routing and the quote was half of the one for SmartTeam.  

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

MElam, are you using the replication abilities of DBWorks?

We are in the same boat, been using SolidWorks since 98plus and all PDM has been manual. Also our company relocated everyone from one central location to 3 locations all within a 60 mile radius. We've implemented a replication software package called Availl and purchased 3 servers. We now replicate our Solidworks files real-time. However we haven't had much luck with the replication.

Something like DBWorks may be our only option at the low end if it works well.

Jason Capriotti
ThyssenKrupp Elevator

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

(OP)
Does DBworks offer you the same features as Smarteam? Will it manage "other" documents, MS office, E-CAD docs, etc?

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

Hi,

I have extensive experience with both PDMWorks and SmarTeam.  As a general statement I think that where you you're going with SmarTeam on an enterprise wide basis you don't need the additional burden of dealing with PDMWorks at the engineering level.  You're best off to just stick with the SmarTeam product for your engineering PDM solution in my opinion.

I'm honestly kind of blown away that someone would be trying to sell you on trying to integrate PDMWorks with SmarTeam.  The underlying principles of how these guys accomplish their similar tasks are quite different from one another.  Really it would take a significant amount of time, energy, and effort (not to mention headache) to make these guys "play" well with one another.

Don't get me wrong I think that PDMWorks is a good tool as far it goes for it's intended purpose (I use it in my current job) but it is not conducive to a PLM Software solution in my opinion.  SmarTeam as a PDM package is superior to PDMWorks insofar that it is more extensive in terms of functionality.  But beware that the rub is that this comes with the price of being more complex and difficult to understand and put into practice.

Another advantage of SmarTeam based on what I've read in your post is that you might be able to script the organization of legacy data more easily than with PDMWorks due to the fact that the SmarTeam API is more mature.  This would have the effect of saving you time.  PDMWorks doesn't really offer too much in API functionality and you have to pay a steep price to even access it given that one needs to purchase the Advanced Server module.  That's a pet peeve of mine but really where you're concerned I don't see much advantage using PDMWorks in that regard either.

I would also like to echo the sentiment of one of the previous posts, get a SmarTeam black belt/guru/whatchamacallit person onboard for your implementation.  I would say for certain you're in for a long and interesting journey.  Good luck!

Chris Gervais
Sr. Mechanical Designer
Lytron Corp.

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

We have used Excel for PDM, and part number tracking. It works ok for a few people, if you are reasonably diligent. If a file is important, just make it read only. We do some larger assemblies, more than 1000 parts. With only 1 or 2 people the check in and out time of PDM will reduce productivity. Having never worked in a large group environment I cannot say what would happen with our methods.

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

Jason and ogray,
Sorry for the late response, I had a little time off.

Jason, we will be doing replication and have done a small test in the pilot stage.  It only replicates changes, not the entire database.  For the initial setup we are going to bring the servers from the branch locations (AR & VA)here to the TN corporate office instead of dumping the vault over the WAN.  After that, the replication will be done during low-peak times but can be done real-time if needed.  We are still at the purchase stage, so full production testing has not been done.

ogray,  DBWorks can manage "other" documents, MS office, AutoCAD, etc. but can not handle all of the CAD systems SmartTeam can.  We only need to manage SolidWorks, AutoCAD and Office docs.  They do have a seperate app for Inventor.

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

Melam, where are you guys located adn what company are you? We are in Memphis.

Jason Capriotti
ThyssenKrupp Elevator

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

McKee Foods Corp. in Collegedale (just outside of Chattanooga)

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

(OP)
RRex
    That is the kind of insight I was looking for.  I tend to agree with you in that I don't want for us to go through "2" learning curves.   

Thanks very much to all for the input.

Chris O.

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

Take a look at Conisio.  We compared it to Adept a while back and found out that Conisio was with SolidWorks much longer and worked inside of Windows Explorer.  After comparing the two we chose Conisio.

www.conisio.com

Jim

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

I tried to look up Conisio, couldn't find them listed under the SolidWorks Gold Partners - are they not a Gold Partner?

I also searched the online sites for MCADCafe, CAD Digest, and Cadalyst magazines for Conisio, came up completely dry.  

Were they at SolidWorks World in Boston this year?

I did go to their web site and it doesn't look like they have a corporate presence here in the United States.  
They have a few resellers here but what about corporate involvement, tech support, SPR's and that sort of thing?
The web site did have a contact email from someone in Sweden but I didn't see a phone number in the event I wanted to call, do some sort of reality check.  Couldn't find a list of reference accounts here in the States either, but I didn't spend too long searching their site so I may have missed that page.

http://www.mcadcafe.com
http://www.caddigest.com
http://www.cadalyst.com

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

Naturally I would hold any package to that gold standard and do all of the things I listed as due diligence - I didn't mean to single any package out for scrutiny.  It's not like lives are at stake here - my data is much more important than that

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

OK.  Hands up those of you who actually read what ogray said?  It is not much help to him if you ignore that and just give other information   I am guilty of doing this also sometimes. Maybe we should preface alternative info or opinions which do not really answer the question presented with a comment to that effect?

Back to business..... ogray states:

"We have made a company decision to use SmartTeam as our PLM company wide solution to incorporate workflow,routing, etc."

OK, so that is a DONE DEAL. He is not asking for alternative suggestions on that subject.

Now he wants to know if it is a good idea to use PDMWorks IN ADDITION.  That's pretty simple.

RawHeadRex actually answered his question and responded with alomst exactly what I was going to say.  So I will is not bore you by repeating it.

I agree 100% with RawHeadRex.  In addition I would note that SmarTeam is set up to handle AutoCAD and several other CAD systems.  Plus you can manage any Window application files and any other miscellaneous files with some configuration.  It also will handle inter- relationships between them. It will use various viewers including eDrawings and SW Viewer.

OK - one little repetition - do not complicate the issue by using PDMWorks or any other such package to duplicate what SmartTeam can already do for you in much more sophisticated manner.  Since you are already going to learn SmarTeam the issue of its complexity is irrelevant.
Yes, start off with rent-an-expert - but make sure they really are the right expert.  Make sure you do a dummy "project" run first to iron out the little foibles.

Scott's comment on the lag in SmarTeam updates behind SW releases is to some extent true.  However this is continually improving, particularly now SW has some control over SmarTeam. And the new regional VAR only arrangement for SmartTeam is more appropriate to the level of support expertise it requires.  It was tough for the smaller/local VAR to provide effectively for ecconomic reasons.

Also note that with the size and type of operation you are running you will not be wanting to load any new SW releases in combat mode until at least an SP or two has fixed all the major goofs found by the more adventurous among us.  And you will be wanting to schedule your update process to fit with your work priorities and so on - it is going to be a planned and pre-tested event.  (You will have set up and proven a test server configuration.) So the lag is not really much of an issue these days.

John Richards Sr. Mech. Engr.
Rockwell Collins Flight Dynamics

There's no place like 127.0.0.1

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

To expound a little bit on what JNR said, and without completely disagreeing with RawHeadRex I wish to add that I have seen several other implementations using other PDM packages in sort of how I envision you will be using PDM/Works and SmarTeam - the larger package (SmarTeam in this case) as the corporate solution that handles working as the large 'overlord' coordinating accounting, purchasing, MRP, etc, and the smaller more nimble package (PDM/Works in this case) handling the day to day to workings of the development team.  As machines / entire assemblies are released as a package, approved by the powers that be as a successful build - they are published as a unit from PDM/Works into SmarTeam.  

Assuming your dozen engineers will implement your smaller package first or parallel to the uberPackage, the benefits of approaching it in this two tier manner are a) the engineers most needing document management get their documents in order fast - a workgroup level install of any of the smaller packages should be installed, configured and running nicely in two to three weeks at the absolute longest, a full corporate roll out of SmarTeam can take months and months (possibly longer than a year); b) at a cost of well under $30,000 including licenses, implementation / installation, and training, where a full corporate rollout of one of the large company wide uberPackage can easily run a quarter million dollars or more; and c) when it comes time to add the engineering data to the uberPackage, all of the organization that needs to happen for a successful migration into PDM has already been done.  

Once the uberPackage is ready, you can either move all of your neatly organized data / files into it from your first smaller package and use the uberPackage for your engineering workgroup, or develop a 'publish' strategy that moves complete, approved, released sets of drawings and BOM's from your workgroup package into your corporate package, allowing your engineers to continue working day to day in the package they are already using (quite successfully, I hope.)

RE: PDM, WHAT TO DO?

When assessing PDM tools, you have to look at PDM functionality. Just because a particular software "handles" many document types does not mean it meets your PDM needs. That is document management. SmarTeam is tightly integrated with SolidWorks and works very well. That is not to say it does not have issues as with any software. We have over 100 SolidWorks and SmarTeam users. We have defined strict processes and made SmarTeam function to meet those processes. There in lies the key. Define your processes, implement SmarTeam, and let them meet somewhere. Then your PDM drives your process.

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