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Try and...
3

Try and...

Try and...

(OP)

Why has this saying, rather than "try to" become acceptable? I hear it on TV, radio, etc.

My little test for correctness for this is to change "try" to "trying" to see how ridiculous the sentence sounds.

Best regards,

Matthew Ian Loew
"Luck is the residue of design."
Branch Rickey


Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Try and...

Furthermore, I've never heard anybody say "try not and..."

RE: Try and...

There is no TRY there is only DO or DO NOT.....

RE: Try and...

(OP)
NickE,

May the force be with you.

Best regards,

Matthew Ian Loew
"Luck is the residue of design."
Branch Rickey


Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Try and...

MLoew;
Precisely what I complain about. It is annoying, very annoying.
"Try and try and try..." is the only legitimate way to say it. Sooner or later it would be correct to say "try to...".
I am glad you brought up the topic.
TV people are the worst offenders.

Buy a dictionary, keep it nearby and USE it. Webster's New World Dictionary of American English is recommended, and Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.

RE: Try and...

(OP)
Jimbo,

Thanks. I cringed the other day when the quite intelligent Dr. Condi Rice said "try and" in her testimony. Yikes!

Best regards,

Matthew Ian Loew
"Luck is the residue of design."
Branch Rickey


Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Try and...

What are you guys talking about ? "Try and ..." is in most  cases a perfectly acceptable colloquialism. Suggest you consult Fowler.

RE: Try and...

(OP)
EM,

It is a colloquialism. I believe it is still grammatically incorrect, however. As Jimbo suggests, what is it that one can try and do? Nothing other than try again. You can only try to do something.

Best regards,

Matthew Ian Loew
"Luck is the residue of design."
Branch Rickey


Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Try and...

Perhaps "let's see if we are able to..." is better.  Afterall, passive voice prevails in technical briefs.

Aaron Spearin, EIT
ChemE, M.E.
"The only constant in life is change." -Dan Andia; 1999, Chemical Engineering Progress

RE: Try and...

(OP)
Aaron,

That is acceptable. One certainly can not correctly say "let's see if we are able and..." Try to substitute any of the synonyms for try in a sentence where try precedes and. Sounds equally stupid to me.

Best regards,

Matthew Ian Loew
"Luck is the residue of design."
Branch Rickey


Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Try and...

MLoew: Fowler says it is a colloquialism, but not in the sense that it is incorrect  spoken English. According to him, "try and .." implies a meaning distinct from "try to ....". I suspect it has been part of colloquial speech for over a hundred years, so it seems a little perverse to claim it is incorrect. And anyway, it's a bit risky to buck that Condi you know ....

RE: Try and...

(OP)
EM,

I do not know the distinct definition. I have only heard it spoken and do not see how it is correct English other than being accepted as a colloquialism. I am continually striving to improve my grammar and pronunciation. This is one of the colloquialisms I have been able to strike from my speech, so I tend do be sensitized to it.

Dr. Rice's spoken grammar was otherwise quite good, I think. I have no intention of crossing her.

Best regards,

Matthew Ian Loew
"Luck is the residue of design."
Branch Rickey


Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Try and...

We all use colloquialisms. A colloquialism is not necessarily regarded as incorrect English - just an informal variety. For example, we all say, on occasion, "It's me", disregarding the "rule" that the verb "to be" takes the same case after it as before it. In fact, things have evolved to the point where we have gone further, making a subtle distinction between the meaning of the declamatory "It is I", and "It's me". Much the same thing applies to "Try to.." versus "Try and..". The substitution may perhaps have been made originally because of the instinctive aversion of habitual English speakers to the jingling "t's", which becomes even worse if you say "to try to ...". And now, according to Fowler, we even draw a distinction in meaning between the two phrases. Ultimately, one cannot reduce English to a set of rules - the "rules" are created after the fact by grammarians, and of course they then have to make excuses for where they don't work. The only thing one can do (apart from studying Fowler and his ilk) is read and perhaps study the works of the generally accepted great writers - who are rarely grammarians. If one does this enough, good English becomes instinctive. I would be willing to bet that you could find numerous examples of "try and .." among the works of the greats. And if you can find them, according to Fowler, that often makes it OK.

RE: Try and...

(OP)
EM,

Thanks for your reply. I still, however, hate the way it sounds.

Best regards,

Matthew Ian Loew
"Luck is the residue of design."
Branch Rickey


Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Try and...

I also suggest this link from "Ask Oxford"

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/try?view=uk

They also feel like Fowler that "try and" is an acceptable spoken colloquialism, but don't appear to think that there is also a slight difference in meaning as Fowler does.

RE: Try and...

(OP)
Jimbo,

I thought of one more appropriate use of "try and...":

Try and fail.

Best regards,

Matthew Ian Loew


Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Try and...

When ever I hear some one say, “I will try to accomplish (or whatever) blah, blah, blah…”  I fully understand that this is code-speak.  Translated, the person really said, “I do not intend to accomplish (or whatever) blah, blah, blah…”

The guy who quoted Yoda was right, "There is no TRY.  There is only DO or DO NOT DO.”

SCET - Techmaximus

RE: Try and...

So would your take on this be that we should only use the past tense version of try as in the example somewhere way up there where the guy (oops, person)tried the key in the lock but it didna' work?  Wrong key dontchaknow shouldaknown?

RE: Try and...

I don’t know if it is that cut and dried.  I just know that in my line of work, construction inspection, when I hear the word “try” used that it is most often code for “no real effort”. “I will try” is used simply to mean “I will make a perfunctory effort but possess no real will to cause the desired and/or required outcome and I am preparing you for my certain failure by not guaranteeing the desired and/or required outcome by telling you upfront that I will only “try” to make this (whatever) happen as I am not actually going to make this (whatever) happen.”

Am I too cynical?

SCET - Techmaximus

RE: Try and...

sorrry,
I will try not to nettle you so much next time.  Not this time mind you.

In this instance when I say try, I mean make a conscious effort on a scale of 1-10 maybe about 7.5 because it is not extremely important to me.  However if you are inspecting my work, I would surely stay as far away from the word try as I could get.  More like -- yes sir (in a non-condencsending tone) we'll make it happen.  Whatever it takes.  Who would be dumb enough to get an inspector on his/her black list?

RE: Try and...

"and" is a conjucnction, which is to join.

"try and" joins what?

jimbo

No, I will never give up.

Buy a dictionary, keep it nearby and USE it. Webster's New World Dictionary of American English is recommended, and Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.

RE: Try and...

You're making the mistake of trying to apply logic to language.  "And" is a conjunction, except in this case, where it has a centuries-old history of being an infinitive particle.  I can't say that it makes significantly less sense in that role than "to", which is usually a participle indicating directionality.

It's colloquial, it really ought not to be in formal writing, but it's English.

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19960612

Hg

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