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will be/ shall be
4

will be/ shall be

will be/ shall be

(OP)
My boss always insists that the sentences be written with proper use of "will" and "shall". His approach is that if I write "the steel will be painted blue", it will be most definitely be painted blue. If a "shall" is used, well, you will try it is blue but if couldn't, any colour will do.

To me, both of them look the same. Is the boss correct?

RE: will be/ shall be

In a word -- No.  In fact, your boss is backwards.

"Shall" is the correct verb when used in 1st person, and "will" is the correct verb in 2nd or 3rd person for declaratory statements.

However, to be assertive or to use the imperative, they are reversed.  The verb "will" is used in the 1st person, and "shall" is used in 2nd and 3rd person.

The phrase "the steel will be painted blue" is a declarative statement in 3rd person using "will."  If "shall" were used, the statement would be imperative.  That "the steel shall be painted blue" is assertive and imperative because you're using "shall" in the 3rd person.

RE: will be/ shall be

Good points about the difference in person (1st, 2nd, 3rd).

From my perspective, "shall" is widely used to emphasize that the requirement is mandatory.  

I would not use "will" for that purpose in writing.  Maybe the meaning is clear in verbal discussion when you emphasize the will so much that the meaning is again clear that this is a mandatory requirement. But in written communication I don't think will would be effective.

If I read will I would take it as a routine statement of plans without any commentary on whether it was mandatory or flexible.

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RE: will be/ shall be

Soon, I'm sure we'll hear what Fowler has to say about it .....

RE: will be/ shall be

"Will" also sounds passive while "Shall" sounds directive.  What I hear is "[when it gets here] The steel will [have] be[en] painted blue" and "[you better make sure when it leaves your plant] The steel shall be painted blue".

David

RE: will be/ shall be

From Websters revised unabridged dictionary (1913)

Shall \Shall\, v. i. & auxiliary. [imp. Should.] [OE. shal,
   schal, imp. sholde, scholde, AS. scal, sceal, I am obliged,
   imp. scolde, sceolde, inf. sculan; akin to OS. skulan, pres.
   skal, imp. skolda, D. zullen, pres. zal, imp. zoude, zou,
   OHG. solan, scolan, pres. scal, sol. imp. scolta, solta, G.
   sollen, pres. soll, imp. sollte, Icel. skulu, pres. skal,
   imp. skyldi, SW. skola, pres. skall, imp. skulle, Dan.
   skulle, pres. skal, imp. skulde, Goth. skulan, pres. skal,
   imp. skulda, and to AS. scyld guilt, G. schuld guilt, fault,
   debt, and perhaps to L. scelus crime.]

   Note: [Shall is defective, having no infinitive, imperative,
         or participle.]
   1. To owe; to be under obligation for. [Obs.] ``By the faith
      I shall to God'' --Court of Love.

   2. To be obliged; must. [Obs.] ``Me athinketh [I am sorry]
      that I shall rehearse it her.'' --Chaucer.


Will \Will\, n. [OE. wille, AS. willa; akin to OFries. willa,
   OS. willeo, willio, D. wil, G. wille, Icel. vili, Dan.
   villie, Sw. vilja, Goth wilja. See Will, v.]
   1. The power of choosing; the faculty or endowment of the
      soul by which it is capable of choosing; the faculty or
      power of the mind by which we decide to do or not to do;
      the power or faculty of preferring or selecting one of two
      or more objects.


Note: In Ireland, Scotland, and the United States, especially in the southern and western portions of the United States, shall and will, should and would, are often  misused, as in the following examples:

               I am able to devote as much time and attention to
               other subjects as I will [shall] be under the
               necessity of doing next winter.    --Chalmers.

               A countryman, telling us what he had seen,
               remarked that if the conflagration went on, as it
               was doing, we would [should] have, as our next
               season's employment, the Old Town of Edinburgh to
               rebuild.                           --H. Miller.

               I feel assured that I will [shall] not have the
               misfortune to find conflicting views held by one
               so enlightened as your excellency. --J. Y. Mason.

RE: will be/ shall be

CajunCenturion: I hope that wasn't a veiled dig at me. If anybody is interested, the second edition has two pages on "shall/will and should/would", and over a page on "will". Complicated ground indeed, on which I humbly fear to tread. It includes some dark comments about the Scottish-Irish idiom as followed on the American continent having made formidable inroads ....

RE: will be/ shall be

Also, it's not clear that we're even talking about normal English.  This sounds like either a work instruction or specification.  If the latter, per MIL-STD-961D, section 4.9.6 Commonly used words and phrases:

h. "Shall", the emphatic form of the verb, shall be used throughout sections 3, 4, and 5 of the specification whenever a requirement is intended to express a provision that is binding.

i.  "Will" may be used to express a declaration of purpose on the part of the Government.  In may be necessary to use "will" in cases where simple futurity is required.


Note the wonderful use of circular definition

TTFN

RE: will be/ shall be

CajunCenturion / EnglishMuffin,

I had to go and check out my pocket edition of Fowler's. It notes that "shall" has been largely driven out by "will" in most parts of the world, apart from England (note the distinction - even the rest of Britain is tending towards "will"), and ends with the following neat summing up:

There is not much doubt that "will" will win and "shall" shall lose, in the end.

RE: will be/ shall be

EnglishMuffin - Not at all a veiled dig.  Fowler is a great resource, but not one which I have access to, therefore I look forward to seeing those posts.

RE: will be/ shall be

That's a relief - I'm just a bit paranoid because Fowler is the only grammar reference I have, and it's probably a bit too "British" and old fashioned in tone for an American resident to be using exclusively these days. To make matters worse, mine is only the second edition. Perhaps we need a thread recommending and reviewing some good grammar books, although many have been mentioned in passing.

RE: will be/ shall be

It shall survive until we no longer need military specifications, which will not be anytime soon

TTFN

RE: will be/ shall be

I always liked this quote (from Lyndon Johnson, and parroted by Gerald Ford):  "I shall not seek, and will not accept the nomination of my party for another term as your president."

Being in the US government (it's not just the military):  Shall is a requirement; will is statement of belief/facts.  So if someone says "the steel will be painted blue" that means "I expect the steel to be painted blue."  If it's "The steel shall be painted blue," then, if it's not, the steel will be rejected and repainted.

Patricia Lougheed

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RE: will be/ shall be

I find it interesting that several of the posts indicate how will and shall are being used in their various environments.  This brings up an interesting question with respect to the "correctness" of their use with respect to their environment, and with respect to the English language.

English is an evolving language and what happens if, as in this case, the evolution of will/shall usage varies from place to place.  Does this not lead towards contextual based grammar rules, and is this a good thing?

RE: will be/ shall be

That is of course why in Britain "the Kings English" was adopted as the standard. But I'm not sure that in the US we would want to adopt "the President's English" which would be the nearest thing - at least not right now. Maybe we could pick a specific much admired past President's English and use that. But then, what you would really be adopting would be the president's speech writers English.

RE: will be/ shall be

I certainly would not want to adopt "the President's English" for several reasons, such as the pronunciation of nuclear, and I do know what "is" is.

RE: will be/ shall be

But it's already contextual.  There are terms I use and others that the rest of you use that have almost no relevance to anyone not in the industry.

This discussion has little relevance to normal people.  "Shall" is used mostly as an affectation in normal conversations.

But, that's OK, except when a normal person winds up having to execute a work instruction that uses "shall", but I'd assume they'd quickly adapt or get fired.

TTFN

RE: will be/ shall be

Gurunet:

USAGE NOTE   The traditional rules for using shall and will prescribe a highly complicated pattern of use in which the meanings of the forms change according to the person of the subject. In the first person, shall is used to indicate simple futurity: I shall (not will) have to buy another ticket. In the second and third persons, the same sense of futurity is expressed by will: The comet will (not shall) return in 87 years. You will (not shall) probably encounter some heavy seas when you round the point. The use of will in the first person and of shall in the second and third may express determination, promise, obligation, or permission, depending on the context. Thus I will leave tomorrow indicates that the speaker is determined to leave; You and she shall leave tomorrow is likely to be interpreted as a command. The sentence You shall have your money expresses a promise (“I will see that you get your money”), whereas You will have your money makes a simple prediction.•Such, at least, are the traditional rules. The English and some traditionalists about usage are probably the only people who follow these rules, and then not with perfect consistency. In America, people who try to adhere to them run the risk of sounding pretentious or haughty. Americans normally use will to express most of the senses reserved for shall in English usage. Americans use shall chiefly in first person invitations and questions that request an opinion or agreement, such as Shall we go? and in certain fixed expressions, such as We shall overcome. In formal style, Americans use shall to express an explicit obligation, as in Applicants shall provide a proof of residence, though this sense is also expressed by must or should. In speech the distinction that the English signal by the choice of shall or will may be rendered by stressing the auxiliary, as in I will leave tomorrow (“I intend to leave”); by choosing another auxiliary, such as must or have to; or by using an adverb such as certainly.•In addition to its sense of obligation, shall also can convey high moral seriousness that derives in part from its extensive use in the King James Bible, as in “Righteousness shall go before him and shall set us in the way of his steps” (Ps 85:13) and “He that shall humble himself shall be exalted” (Mt 23:12). The prophetic overtones that shall bears with it have no doubt led to its use in some of the loftiest rhetoric in English. This may be why Lincoln chose to use it instead of will in the Gettysburg Address:“government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.” See Usage Notes at should.

Clear now?

RE: will be/ shall be

To add to the shall & will debate, I know ISO 9001:2000 makes extensive use of the word "shall" to describe required elements.

Ray Reynolds
"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977
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RE: will be/ shall be

(OP)
Fairly complicated business this "shall" will be for me. But I learnt the correct usages, at least in technical context.

Thanks to all who contributed and will continue to contribute. They shall.

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