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Rate of Speed
2

Rate of Speed

Rate of Speed

(OP)
I happened to turn on the TV tonight and they were running "Star Trek : The Motion Picture" on AMC. In this movie, at one point Mr. Spock says ".... at this rate of speed". Why is this tautology so prevalent in the US ? The superfluous illogicality of it seems to have escaped even Mr Spock.

RE: Rate of Speed

Perhaps Mr. Spock was talking about an acceleration.  

TTFN

RE: Rate of Speed

2
(OP)
Well, he wasn't. But if he had been, that would be correctly expressed as "rate of change of speed". Of course, its not Mr Spock I'm concerned about, but the great multitude of engineers and non engineers who appear to be using the term. Star Trek TNG has been a little less prone to lapses of this sort, which could be partially due to the presence of such Shakespearian thespians as Patrick Stewart. But I think I have heard "this criteria" from Commander Data on at least one occasion. Of couse, that would really be the fault of Dr. Noonian Sing's grammar algorithm wouldn't it ?

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
Sorry, that should have been "Noonian Soong"!

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
And if I may be allowed to correct myself again, it would be more accurate to say that acceleration is "rate of change of velocity", since acceleration and velocity are normally regarded as vector quantities, and speed is not. I'm sure Spock would support me in this. Not sure about Nimoy though.

RE: Rate of Speed

Aside from Spock's comment, how would you feel about the term "acceleration rate"?

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RE: Rate of Speed

If velocity is changing, acceleration is non-zero.  The rate of that change is the jerk. Otherwise known as the acceleration rate

TTFN

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
electricpete: I hope you understand that my objection to terms such as rate of speed and acceleration rate is that they are tautological. Speed is rate of change of distance with respect to time, so when one says rate of speed, it is tantamount to saying rate of rate of change of speed. This is something unworthy of scientifically minded individuals, and particularly Spock, in view of his predilection for economical use of language.

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
Sorry - I meant .... tantamount to saying rate of rate of change of distance !

RE: Rate of Speed

Personally, I have no problem with "rate of acceleration" or "acceleration rate.

Similar to
"rate of degradatation" = "degradation rate"
"rate of growth" = "growth rate"
"rate of reaction" = "reaction rate"
"rate of flow" = "flow rate"

"rate" and "rate of change" are not the same thing.

Does the term "flow rate" bother you? It does not imply that flow is changing.  Only that flow occurs over time and the units of flow have time in the denominator.

Why the extra word?  I think it is roughly equivalent to "value", "level" etc, except that it applies to quantities whose units include time in the denominator.  I would not be as comfortable hearing flow value, acceleration value etc as I would hearing flow rate or acceleration rate.

I am not 100% comfortable with "speed rate" or "rate of speed".  There is a subtle difference.  Acceleration rate, reaction rate, flow rate, degradation rate, growth rate  - these all have a noun form (whatever you call it) of a verb: accelerate, react, flow, degrade, flow.  Speed rate doesn't exactly match that pattern.

Just in case someone like IRStuff feels a overwhelming compulstion to jump in again and teach us the mathematical difference between speed and acceleration - I am well aware of that. Just comparing the useage of rate with these terms.

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RE: Rate of Speed

Here is a definition from Merriam Webster for rate, the noun:

"Main Entry: rate
Function: noun
<stuff removed>
4 a : a quantity, amount, or degree of something measured per unit of something else b : an amount of payment or charge based on another amount; specifically : the amount of premium per unit of insurance"

This is in-line with my understanding of the term, except the "something else" is assumed to be time unless otherwise stated.  

Compare:
The value of system pressure is 35 psig.
The rate of system flow is 35 gpm.

The value of altitude is 500 feet.
The rate of speed is 55 mph's
(just kidding about the 's).

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RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
electricpete: "rate of acceleration" is NOT similar to :
 
"rate of degradatation" (sic) (I assume you meant degradation)
"rate of growth"
"rate of reaction"
"rate of flow"

I have no problem with any of these. But acceleration  is ITSELF a rate. Therefore the addition of the word "rate" is superfluous (and to me rather annoying).

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
Regarding "flow rate", I believe inclusion of the word "rate" is required if we wish to avoid confusion, although one could probably argue the point. If one defines the noun "flow", as my dictionary does, to mean "quantity that flows", then the sentence "What is the flow ?" would be somewhat ambiguous from a technical standpoint. The question "what is the quantity that flows ?" could for example be responded to by replying "It's water". "Is a flow present", on the other hand, has an entirely unambiguous meaning.

RE: Rate of Speed

So is the objection A or 2:

1 - that it is an unnecessary extra word

or

B - that it implies an extra time differentiation that doesn't belong?

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RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
electricpete: A or 2 ? 1 or B ? You haven't been at the Jack Daniels again have you? But tautology is always objectionable. I'm not sure whether adding "rate of" implies an extra time differentiation or not - unless "rate of change of" rather than just "rate of" is added. But this ambiguity is in itself another reason to avoid the phrase. I am tired of hearing police officers say "he was travelling at a high rate of speed". As I intimated in my original post, I think this usage is confined to the US, but since US English has today become the world standard, it is all the more reason to be concerned. I fear it is a lost cause. But perhaps I am a lone voice crying in the wilderness. I heard on CNN tonight that the latest "big thing" is that US English teachers are being exported all over the world, particularly to China. As long as you can speak English, you're hired (at $1400 a month). And for that much they ain't gonna get Laurence Olivier!

RE: Rate of Speed

What about the sort of thing you hear on the financial news from time to time:

"Inflation is rising at an increasing rate."

Now, "inflation" is itself a time differential - the time rate of change of the value of money (e.g. 4% p.a. say).

So if the inflation rate is rising, it means the second differential of the value of money is positive (e.g. 4% 12 months ago, now it's 5%, or 1% per annum per annum, say).

When inflation is rising at an increasing rate, it means the THIRD differential of the value of money is positive. (E.g. Last year the inflation rate rose from 4% to 5% or 1% p.a.p.a.; this year it rose from 5% to 7% or 2% p.a.p.a.; therefore the rate of change of rate of the rate of change of the inflation rate 1% p.a.p.a.p.a.)

Do you think the commentators really mean that?

Does anyone know of any other instances where 3rd derivatives are quoted in the popular press?

Why stop at the third derivative - why not go on to the fourth, fifth, etc?

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
Well, I'm not totally convinced that the word "inflation" by itself unambiguously implies a rate. My dictionary merely says that it is an increase in the amount of money in circulation. Its a bit like "flow" in that respect. But I admit that "inflation is increasing" would be a more economical phrase.

RE: Rate of Speed

I don't see any significant difference between acceleration rate and:

"rate of degradation"
"rate of growth"
"rate of reaction"
"rate of flow"

I can sense one aspect of you objection is that you view acceleration automatically defines a number (or vector).  Sure, in many engineering problems, acceleration is viewed from this quantitative perspective. But common useage of the term acceleration is not limited to this quantitative perspective.

Beavis: "You can really feel the acceleration of this car."
Butthead: "What is the acceleration?"
Beavis: "That's when I press down harder on the gas pedal"
Butthead: "No, I mean how fast does it accelerate?"
Beavis: "I can get it up to 110"
Butthead: "No, I mean what is the rate of acceleration?"
Beavis: "Oh... why didn't you say so?  It can go from 0 to sixty in 10 seconds"
Butthead: "Hey cool. Did you ever notice this ash tray is like a secret agent compartment?"

Ok, I know 0 to 60 in 10 seconds is not exactly acceleration but it's the closest I could get to get the point across.

Maybe as you said it is a matter of what one is used to hearing.

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RE: Rate of Speed



V = dS/dt

A = d2S/dt2


Therefore presumably acceleration rate (R) is a measure of change of acceleration



R = d3S/dt3

Good Luck
johnwm

RE: Rate of Speed

To johnwm, you just defined jerk, the third derivative of position with respect to time. The unit being 1 foot/sec3.

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
electricpete: In my dictionary, one of the meanings of acceleration is  rate of change of velocity. My dictionary contains no mention of rate for either "degradation", "growth", "reaction" or "flow", although I will admit the last does imply some sort of rate and some dictionaries might reflect this. So I stand by my opinion. To the question "What is the acceleration ?" there should be only one meaningful answer in the engineering world, which I would pray does not include the likes of your friend Butthead, and no ambiguity is introduced among knowledgeable people by leaving out the word "rate".

It is true that a second meaning given in my dictionary for acceleration appears to be "change in velocity", without any mention of a rate. I don't know who we have to blame for this. Perhaps it was Isaac Newton himself. The Andrew Motte translation of the second law reads "The alteration of motion is ever proportional to the motive force impressed ...". If we define "motion" to mean "momentum", as Newton did , there is still no mention of a rate. Of course, this could be the fault of Motte - my Latin isn't good enough to clarify this. Or it could be that I don't know the archaic meaning of "alteration".

RE: Rate of Speed

"Rate of" means the rate at which something is occuring.
"rate of change" means the rate at which change is occuring. SO why the phrasing "at this rate of speed"? perhaps to distcriminate it rom "this rate of change of speed"?

If Spock, the ever logical Vulcan had said "At this rate, we'll be in the Kilgon sector in five hours" you can be sure just about every crew member would have pounced on this imprecise statement. "Rate of what? speed or change?" As it is, all they can do is debate his use of the word speed and not velocity.

But, being Spock, I'm sure there is a logical explanation.
[img<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_1_131.gif' alt='Star 2' border=0></a>] (OK that should have been the instruction to insert the Mr Spock Smiley from smiley central)

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com

RE: Rate of Speed

You mean...

0

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
jmw: Mr Spock should simply have said "at this speed....etc ". Does no one support me in this or am I completely losing my marbles ? It is clear that by the year 2271 when Star Trek the Motion Picture is presumed to be taking place, my objections will have long since become a lost cause.

RE: Rate of Speed

I understand what you're saying EnglishMuffin since "speed" is a rate, at least in this context.  Put another way "rate of speed" would mean "rate of rate of motion", which would be pleonastic.

That being said, the pervasiveness of the phase "rate of speed" is so high, that I'm afraid you're fighting a losing battle.

RE: Rate of Speed

OK EnglishMuffin,
I confess, I do tend to agree with you.
If he had said "at this rate of progress", for example, I would be happier and yes, I personally would have said "at this speed" and not "this rate of speed".

But EM, you are messing with a show that is very much a part of most people's youth. It has that quaint olde worlde charm that happily lets the modern world pass it by. Sure, they could develop a more sophisticated dialogue but would they be as fun?

They say "Warp factor 1" Why? we don't say "Mach Factor 1", and it is perhaps as well.
Take their communicators. Some things are firmly based in reality, the tendancy of people to ring Kirk in the middle of important meetings because he didn't set it to divert. The fact no one holds them to their ears, the lack of hands-free kits, the lack of polyphonic ring tones, text messaging etc. Only one person ever gets a call at any one time (is it a party line?)
What should they do in real life? Have a bunch of them standing around with their backs to each other all talking to their communicators at once?
Have Sulu suddenly driving the enterprise one-handed through another wormhole (sorry, no wormholes or strings) another space time discontinuum while he rings his partner and says "Hi Honey, I'm on the Enterprise now and but I should be home in time for tea"? and crash into the back of a parked Kligon vessel, cloaked (stealthy?) or not.
Should they mirror the actual behaviour a traits that go with the real world?
This isn't real. If it were then they'd know that a female vulcan is oxymoronic; my wife discovered that if she calculates her age based on the Islamic calender she is twenty years younger. By the time I'd sorted her logic out i wasn't popular.
So while you may have a point about the language, I don't think it would be wise to try and change this iconic program.

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com

RE: Rate of Speed

Muffin,
I almost support you. The quote is out of context, but I bet that direction was important to his statement. ".... at this velocity".

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
CajunCenturion: I believe it is only in the US that it has become pervasive - I don't recall ever hearing it when I lived in the UK, except from Americans. However, I might have heard "acceleration rate" over there a few times. But I am fully resigned to the fact that US citizens are doing to English what the English did to the Germanic tongue in their day - ie mangling it, and gradually creating a new language. Its going to take some time, however, since we now have good communications and standards , such as the OED. Of course, they (the OED) have in recent years very sensibly hired some Harvard and/or Yale educated lexicographers to straighten things out.
jmw: Star Trek is Olde Worlde ?? I never thought I would see the day! And I would like to point out that it's part of my youth too. But to give the show its due, I think it must be partly credited with finally eradicating the remaining "no split infinitive" hold-outs in the UK, with its unforgettable "To boldly go ..". The OED finally relented some time in the nineties. As is so often the case, Fowler was way ahead of the curve, ruling it a superstition many decades ago.

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
stevenal : Yes, I am aware of that - see post 5. Also, its funny we never hear anyone say "this rate of velocity" or 'this velocity rate". I suppose that will be next!

RE: Rate of Speed

EnglishMuffin - I would not dispute your claim as to usage in the USA, but I invite you to do a goodle search using the following two terms:  "Rate of Speed"  UK


RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
CajunCenturion: Touche. It just goes to show what fifty years of American culture can do to a country ! By the way, "goodle search" - I like that!

RE: Rate of Speed

LOL.  A goodle search is a google search which returns oodles of results.

RE: Rate of Speed

somewhere between an oodles and a googol?

Oddly, oodles is the singular

TTFN

RE: Rate of Speed

Quote (IRstuff):

Oddly, oodles is the singular
That is odd.  I always thought that oodles was a plural noun without a singular form.  If oodles is singular, then what is the plural of oodles?

RE: Rate of Speed

As far as I'm aware there are plural-written words that are singular. Examples that come to mind: the United States, when used as the name of the country, the United Nations, politics, economics.

RE: Rate of Speed

23562 - Yes, they are called "collective nouns", and whether they are singular or plural is determined soley in context.

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
Since "oodles" (n.pl, since c1870) appears in my Dictionary of American Slang, I would venture to suggest that it is not an official  word. But it may have recently become one. Could anyone enlighten me ?

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
Can't argue with that. I wonder on what basis it is decided that a word has achieved official status ? I presume it's a bunch of guys sitting round a table and taking a vote. I believe there are some recent slang computer words that are getting into the OED after just a few years. Maybe now they just put in everything they can find.

RE: Rate of Speed

I think that any "word" or "sound" that conveys a specific meaning to a large enough group of people qualifies as an official "work"

Hence, even the sound of the following:
2 [short for raspberry tart, rhyming slang for fart] : a sound of contempt made by protruding the tongue between the lips and expelling air forcibly to produce a vibration; broadly : an expression of disapproval or contempt
from http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=raspberry, is a verbal communication.

TTFN

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
It is curious that this particular piece of Cockney rhyming slang has crossed the Atlantic, to the exclusion of virtually all the rest. During conversation, real Cockneys are reputed to make it up as they go along, and since no dictionary can avail you in such discourses, it takes great quickness of mind and intelligence to follow them.

RE: Rate of Speed

Isn't brass tacks also part of that lexicon that also made it here?  

I think I knew that brass tacks was Cockney before raspberries.

TTFN

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
Well, I did use the infamous weasel word "virtually". I don't know whether "brass tacks" quite qualifies as rhyming slang, unless you think "the essential facts" rhymes with "tacks". Maybe it's the way Cockneys pronounce the word "facts". The earliest recorded use according to my slang dictionary is 1914.

RE: Rate of Speed


The AngloVulcan piconorbicon would have Spock say, “At our present velocity…”
  

RE: Rate of Speed

In reference to Englishmuffin's comment on the amount of US English teachers in demand:

I live in Asia and find the locals prefer the N. American accent versus the Kings English for a simple reason. They are not as interested in exactness as they are in basic comprehension. Most of them do not care a hoot about dangling particples. The problem they have is not being able to understand the accent of most speakers of the Queen's realm. The teachers here are mostly S. African, Australian, New Zealand, U.K. and Canadians. American teachers here are in the minority with Canadians in the majority.

I understand their frustration at times with teachers who have English accents as I have trouble understanding them at times myself. I figure if I can not understand their English, because of a heavy accent, then what chance do the Asians have? I find that the N. Americans tend to enunciate more clearly and are more careful with the languge than most speakers from the motherland of English.

 "Me blokes wan uh ave a bi o fun wih th lo-als is we-en" Translation: My friends want to have a bit of fun with the locals this weekend.

This is part of an actual conversation I was part of at the pub this weekend mainly between English teachers. I had to translate what they said to my Chinese companion who's English is quite good but could not understand one word of the conversation. As quoted a few times in this forum " We are separated by a common language".

The people in Asia are just trying to get a grasp on basic conversation sans quaint accents and colloquialisms. Their main objectve is to communicate, in a clear manner, in the business world which is mainly Amerispeak. This is why teachers with N. American accents are paid top dollar here. At an average of USD$30/Hr. the wages are a sight better than McDonalds is offering college grads nowdays.

Don't get me wrong, I believe America has taken liberties with the language which could be seen as objectionable. But as for teaching someone English as a second language, for basic communication, American English is preferable.

Okay, let the spears fly!

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
TwnB: I must say I agree with you. As a dual national who has lived in the USA for a quarter century, I now find I can no longer fully understand many of the broader British accents. British English is unfortunately burdened with an extraordinarily diverse range of dialects. And the classic Oxford accent of "the upper classes" to which many British people rightly or wrongly aspired, and which was once basic equipment for BBC announcers, has all but disappeared. In fact, you will often find classier accents in the USA, possessed by the likes of William F. Buckley and George Plimpton (the latter now deceased).

RE: Rate of Speed

Quote:

In reference to Englishmuffin's comment on the amount of US English teachers in demand

Can't really find anything definitive in the dictionary, but it's more colloquial to write "number of US ..."

TTFN

RE: Rate of Speed

Minor detour away from British stuff:

Quote (EnglishMuffin):

To the question "What is the acceleration ?" there should be only one meaningful answer in the engineering world, which I would pray does not include the likes of your friend Butthead, and no ambiguity is introduced among knowledgeable people by leaving out the word "rate".

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=acceleration
Main Entry: ac·cel·er·a·tion
Pronunciation: ik-"se-l&-'rA-sh&n, (")ak-
Function: noun
1 : the act or process of accelerating : the state of being accelerated
2 : the rate of change of velocity with respect to time; broadly : change of velocity

Notice there are two choices for definitions. The one that you think is obvious is the quantitatie one - the 2nd one.  Maybe the context of "What is the acceleration" is obvious to you, but I don't think an extra word hurts to clarify the context.  

I believe it is incorrect to assume that "What is the acceleration" cannot have a non-quantitative answer related to the first definition.


What is the noise?  That's the tires rubbing.
What is the acceleration?  That's me pushing on the gas pedal.

I realize acceleration was not the original question.  Understanding rate of acceration is an intermediate step to understanding of rate of speed imho.

Quote (EnglishMuffin):

My dictionary contains no mention of rate for either "degradation", "growth", "reaction" or "flow"

See
http://www.onelook.com/?w=rate*&ls=a
(includes rate of flow, rate of reaction, rate of growth)

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RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
In my opinion, "that's me pushing on the gas pedal" is not a logical answer to "what is the acceleration", which requires a rate in response. It might however be a possible answer to "what is causing the acceleration".
There is nothing wrong with the terms "rate of flow", "rate of reaction" etc. In fact, my point is precisely that, since degredation and reaction by themselves, at least according to my dictionary, carry no connotation of "rate".
Looks like I'm choppin' and no chips are flyin'!

RE: Rate of Speed

You have automatically assumed the 2nd definition.

"What is the noise" does not automatically require a quantitative response. Why is "What is the acceleration" any different?

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RE: Rate of Speed

Further, are you saying that the 1st definition is not valid:

Acceleration: "1 : the act or process of accelerating : the state of being accelerated"

Not quantitative.

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RE: Rate of Speed

Definition 1 does not imply a rate. Definition 2 does.  
We can force our reader/listener to pick a choice from the context, or we can come right out and tell him/her/it which definition we intend by adding the words "rate of...".

Less room for interpretation = less room for error.

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RE: Rate of Speed

Is "50 decibels" an appropriate response to "What is the noise?"  It may or may not be.  If that is what the inquirer really wanted, I would prefer him/her/it to ask "What is the noise level?"

Check if your axe is too dull or the thing your chopping on is as solid as steel.

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RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
I am merely saying that the context of the question naturally implies the second definition. If you can think of any logical non rate-related quantitative or qualitative reply to the question "What is the acceleration", please go ahead. But if you are hell-bent on adding the word rate to everything, why not insist on adding it to "velocity " as well? I hope I never live to see the day when mission control informs us that the rocket has reached "escape velocity rate". I think the reason that this has not happened to "velocity" yet is that unlike speed and acceleration, the term is not much used by the general public, and is still in safe hands. But why stop there? The next step in language mangling would be to start talking about "Mach number ratio". I realize of course that all this may yet come to pass - I just hope I'm not around !

RE: Rate of Speed

If we are picking on Star Trek, what are they talking about when they say “Full Stop” while in space?

Full stop with respect to what?

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
The local gravitational field perhaps? After the General Theory, even Einstein finally had to admit that there was some validity to the concept of an ether, and there are actually growing numbers of heretics who embrace the concept today. By the way, just for the record, at one point in "Star Trek the Motion Picture" Spock does mention "acceleration rate", in addition to "rate of speed" earlier on. In connection with Thread1010-89886, I also caught Captain Picard saying "Inertial dampeners are off line" in a TNG episode. Yep, no question, "dampeners" is going to win out in a few hundred years time.

RE: Rate of Speed

I'll take it from the point where EM stopped although it veers away from the forum's main subjects. The existence of an ether is postulated by those who -disregarding the Michelson-Morley experiment of 1887- are still asking "with respect to what does light move at speed c ?".

A book of modern physics explains that Einstein's answer was at once simple, radical and conservative: "with respect to anyone who cares to observe it".

Simple, because it's clear and obvious; anyone who measures the speed of light will get the value c=3.0x108m/s.

Radical, because it alters our commonsense notions of space and time (Lorentz contraction, time dilation, the twin paradox).

Conservative, because it asserts for electromagnetism what had long been true in mechanics: that the laws of physics do not depend on the motion of the observer.

Sorry for the digression.

RE: Rate of Speed

(OP)
Well, to call it "Einstein's answer" is debatable since it was Poincare and not Einstein who first postulated the principle of equivalence. As far as Einstein was concerned, the general theory superceded the special theory, but it is quite consistent with the general theory to consider the local gravitational field as an "ether". In fact, Einstein himself said that the general theory was in essence an ether theory - although don't ask me where I read that.

RE: Rate of Speed

    If we're talking about Star Trek(TM) Universe, it is interesting to say that among the Fans (or "Trekkers") many acronyms are used and one of the most common is YATI := "Yet Another Trek Inconsistency" or something similar...
   
    A good reference about this issue can be represented by the book "The Physics of Star Trek" by L. Krauss: see
 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060977108/002-6051014-4839246?v=glance

Live Long and Prosper to All,
                                'NGL

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