Rate of Speed
Rate of Speed
(OP)
I happened to turn on the TV tonight and they were running "Star Trek : The Motion Picture" on AMC. In this movie, at one point Mr. Spock says ".... at this rate of speed". Why is this tautology so prevalent in the US ? The superfluous illogicality of it seems to have escaped even Mr Spock.





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RE: Rate of Speed
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Similar to
"rate of degradatation" = "degradation rate"
"rate of growth" = "growth rate"
"rate of reaction" = "reaction rate"
"rate of flow" = "flow rate"
"rate" and "rate of change" are not the same thing.
Does the term "flow rate" bother you? It does not imply that flow is changing. Only that flow occurs over time and the units of flow have time in the denominator.
Why the extra word? I think it is roughly equivalent to "value", "level" etc, except that it applies to quantities whose units include time in the denominator. I would not be as comfortable hearing flow value, acceleration value etc as I would hearing flow rate or acceleration rate.
I am not 100% comfortable with "speed rate" or "rate of speed". There is a subtle difference. Acceleration rate, reaction rate, flow rate, degradation rate, growth rate - these all have a noun form (whatever you call it) of a verb: accelerate, react, flow, degrade, flow. Speed rate doesn't exactly match that pattern.
Just in case someone like IRStuff feels a overwhelming compulstion to jump in again and teach us the mathematical difference between speed and acceleration - I am well aware of that. Just comparing the useage of rate with these terms.
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"Main Entry: rate
Function: noun
<stuff removed>
4 a : a quantity, amount, or degree of something measured per unit of something else b : an amount of payment or charge based on another amount; specifically : the amount of premium per unit of insurance"
This is in-line with my understanding of the term, except the "something else" is assumed to be time unless otherwise stated.
Compare:
The value of system pressure is 35 psig.
The rate of system flow is 35 gpm.
The value of altitude is 500 feet.
The rate of speed is 55 mph's
(just kidding about the 's).
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RE: Rate of Speed
"rate of degradatation" (sic) (I assume you meant degradation)
"rate of growth"
"rate of reaction"
"rate of flow"
I have no problem with any of these. But acceleration is ITSELF a rate. Therefore the addition of the word "rate" is superfluous (and to me rather annoying).
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1 - that it is an unnecessary extra word
or
B - that it implies an extra time differentiation that doesn't belong?
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"Inflation is rising at an increasing rate."
Now, "inflation" is itself a time differential - the time rate of change of the value of money (e.g. 4% p.a. say).
So if the inflation rate is rising, it means the second differential of the value of money is positive (e.g. 4% 12 months ago, now it's 5%, or 1% per annum per annum, say).
When inflation is rising at an increasing rate, it means the THIRD differential of the value of money is positive. (E.g. Last year the inflation rate rose from 4% to 5% or 1% p.a.p.a.; this year it rose from 5% to 7% or 2% p.a.p.a.; therefore the rate of change of rate of the rate of change of the inflation rate 1% p.a.p.a.p.a.)
Do you think the commentators really mean that?
Does anyone know of any other instances where 3rd derivatives are quoted in the popular press?
Why stop at the third derivative - why not go on to the fourth, fifth, etc?
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"rate of degradation"
"rate of growth"
"rate of reaction"
"rate of flow"
I can sense one aspect of you objection is that you view acceleration automatically defines a number (or vector). Sure, in many engineering problems, acceleration is viewed from this quantitative perspective. But common useage of the term acceleration is not limited to this quantitative perspective.
Beavis: "You can really feel the acceleration of this car."
Butthead: "What is the acceleration?"
Beavis: "That's when I press down harder on the gas pedal"
Butthead: "No, I mean how fast does it accelerate?"
Beavis: "I can get it up to 110"
Butthead: "No, I mean what is the rate of acceleration?"
Beavis: "Oh... why didn't you say so? It can go from 0 to sixty in 10 seconds"
Butthead: "Hey cool. Did you ever notice this ash tray is like a secret agent compartment?"
Ok, I know 0 to 60 in 10 seconds is not exactly acceleration but it's the closest I could get to get the point across.
Maybe as you said it is a matter of what one is used to hearing.
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RE: Rate of Speed
V = dS/dt
A = d2S/dt2
Therefore presumably acceleration rate (R) is a measure of change of acceleration
R = d3S/dt3
Good Luck
johnwm
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It is true that a second meaning given in my dictionary for acceleration appears to be "change in velocity", without any mention of a rate. I don't know who we have to blame for this. Perhaps it was Isaac Newton himself. The Andrew Motte translation of the second law reads "The alteration of motion is ever proportional to the motive force impressed ...". If we define "motion" to mean "momentum", as Newton did , there is still no mention of a rate. Of course, this could be the fault of Motte - my Latin isn't good enough to clarify this. Or it could be that I don't know the archaic meaning of "alteration".
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"rate of change" means the rate at which change is occuring. SO why the phrasing "at this rate of speed"? perhaps to distcriminate it rom "this rate of change of speed"?
If Spock, the ever logical Vulcan had said "At this rate, we'll be in the Kilgon sector in five hours" you can be sure just about every crew member would have pounced on this imprecise statement. "Rate of what? speed or change?" As it is, all they can do is debate his use of the word speed and not velocity.
But, being Spock, I'm sure there is a logical explanation.
[img<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_1_131.gif' alt='Star 2' border=0></a>] (OK that should have been the instruction to insert the Mr Spock Smiley from smiley central)
JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
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Does that blow your mind?
[img http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15 1 131.gif]
JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
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JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
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That being said, the pervasiveness of the phase "rate of speed" is so high, that I'm afraid you're fighting a losing battle.
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I confess, I do tend to agree with you.
If he had said "at this rate of progress", for example, I would be happier and yes, I personally would have said "at this speed" and not "this rate of speed".
But EM, you are messing with a show that is very much a part of most people's youth. It has that quaint olde worlde charm that happily lets the modern world pass it by. Sure, they could develop a more sophisticated dialogue but would they be as fun?
They say "Warp factor 1" Why? we don't say "Mach Factor 1", and it is perhaps as well.
Take their communicators. Some things are firmly based in reality, the tendancy of people to ring Kirk in the middle of important meetings because he didn't set it to divert. The fact no one holds them to their ears, the lack of hands-free kits, the lack of polyphonic ring tones, text messaging etc. Only one person ever gets a call at any one time (is it a party line?)
What should they do in real life? Have a bunch of them standing around with their backs to each other all talking to their communicators at once?
Have Sulu suddenly driving the enterprise one-handed through another wormhole (sorry, no wormholes or strings) another space time discontinuum while he rings his partner and says "Hi Honey, I'm on the Enterprise now and but I should be home in time for tea"? and crash into the back of a parked Kligon vessel, cloaked (stealthy?) or not.
Should they mirror the actual behaviour a traits that go with the real world?
This isn't real. If it were then they'd know that a female vulcan is oxymoronic; my wife discovered that if she calculates her age based on the Islamic calender she is twenty years younger. By the time I'd sorted her logic out i wasn't popular.
So while you may have a point about the language, I don't think it would be wise to try and change this iconic program.
JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
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I almost support you. The quote is out of context, but I bet that direction was important to his statement. ".... at this velocity".
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jmw: Star Trek is Olde Worlde ?? I never thought I would see the day! And I would like to point out that it's part of my youth too. But to give the show its due, I think it must be partly credited with finally eradicating the remaining "no split infinitive" hold-outs in the UK, with its unforgettable "To boldly go ..". The OED finally relented some time in the nineties. As is so often the case, Fowler was way ahead of the curve, ruling it a superstition many decades ago.
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Oddly, oodles is the singular
TTFN
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oodles
plural noun OLD-FASHIONED INFORMAL
a very large amount of something pleasant
and it's in Merriam-Webster as well:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=oodles
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Hence, even the sound of the following:
2 [short for raspberry tart, rhyming slang for fart] : a sound of contempt made by protruding the tongue between the lips and expelling air forcibly to produce a vibration; broadly : an expression of disapproval or contempt
from http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=raspberry, is a verbal communication.
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I think I knew that brass tacks was Cockney before raspberries.
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The AngloVulcan piconorbicon would have Spock say, “At our present velocity…”
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I live in Asia and find the locals prefer the N. American accent versus the Kings English for a simple reason. They are not as interested in exactness as they are in basic comprehension. Most of them do not care a hoot about dangling particples. The problem they have is not being able to understand the accent of most speakers of the Queen's realm. The teachers here are mostly S. African, Australian, New Zealand, U.K. and Canadians. American teachers here are in the minority with Canadians in the majority.
I understand their frustration at times with teachers who have English accents as I have trouble understanding them at times myself. I figure if I can not understand their English, because of a heavy accent, then what chance do the Asians have? I find that the N. Americans tend to enunciate more clearly and are more careful with the languge than most speakers from the motherland of English.
"Me blokes wan uh ave a bi o fun wih th lo-als is we-en" Translation: My friends want to have a bit of fun with the locals this weekend.
This is part of an actual conversation I was part of at the pub this weekend mainly between English teachers. I had to translate what they said to my Chinese companion who's English is quite good but could not understand one word of the conversation. As quoted a few times in this forum " We are separated by a common language".
The people in Asia are just trying to get a grasp on basic conversation sans quaint accents and colloquialisms. Their main objectve is to communicate, in a clear manner, in the business world which is mainly Amerispeak. This is why teachers with N. American accents are paid top dollar here. At an average of USD$30/Hr. the wages are a sight better than McDonalds is offering college grads nowdays.
Don't get me wrong, I believe America has taken liberties with the language which could be seen as objectionable. But as for teaching someone English as a second language, for basic communication, American English is preferable.
Okay, let the spears fly!
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Can't really find anything definitive in the dictionary, but it's more colloquial to write "number of US ..."
TTFN
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http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=acceleration
Main Entry: ac·cel·er·a·tion
Pronunciation: ik-"se-l&-'rA-sh&n, (")ak-
Function: noun
1 : the act or process of accelerating : the state of being accelerated
2 : the rate of change of velocity with respect to time; broadly : change of velocity
Notice there are two choices for definitions. The one that you think is obvious is the quantitatie one - the 2nd one. Maybe the context of "What is the acceleration" is obvious to you, but I don't think an extra word hurts to clarify the context.
I believe it is incorrect to assume that "What is the acceleration" cannot have a non-quantitative answer related to the first definition.
What is the noise? That's the tires rubbing.
What is the acceleration? That's me pushing on the gas pedal.
I realize acceleration was not the original question. Understanding rate of acceration is an intermediate step to understanding of rate of speed imho.
See
http://www.onelook.com/?w=rate*&ls=a
(includes rate of flow, rate of reaction, rate of growth)
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RE: Rate of Speed
There is nothing wrong with the terms "rate of flow", "rate of reaction" etc. In fact, my point is precisely that, since degredation and reaction by themselves, at least according to my dictionary, carry no connotation of "rate".
Looks like I'm choppin' and no chips are flyin'!
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"What is the noise" does not automatically require a quantitative response. Why is "What is the acceleration" any different?
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RE: Rate of Speed
Acceleration: "1 : the act or process of accelerating : the state of being accelerated"
Not quantitative.
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RE: Rate of Speed
We can force our reader/listener to pick a choice from the context, or we can come right out and tell him/her/it which definition we intend by adding the words "rate of...".
Less room for interpretation = less room for error.
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RE: Rate of Speed
Check if your axe is too dull or the thing your chopping on is as solid as steel.
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Full stop with respect to what?
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
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A book of modern physics explains that Einstein's answer was at once simple, radical and conservative: "with respect to anyone who cares to observe it".
Simple, because it's clear and obvious; anyone who measures the speed of light will get the value c=3.0x108m/s.
Radical, because it alters our commonsense notions of space and time (Lorentz contraction, time dilation, the twin paradox).
Conservative, because it asserts for electromagnetism what had long been true in mechanics: that the laws of physics do not depend on the motion of the observer.
Sorry for the digression.
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A good reference about this issue can be represented by the book "The Physics of Star Trek" by L. Krauss: see
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060977108/002-6051014-4839246?v=glance
Live Long and Prosper to All,
'NGL