Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
(OP)
Here is a qustion for the ages.
Structural engineers provide professional services to their clients. These services involve taking specialized knowledge of material behaviors and applying them in such a way as to "turn ideas into reality."
The process in getting an idea put together that is strong enough, stiff enough, ductile enough, etc. and meets the required building codes involves the engineer using various tools. Traditionally, these tools have involved pencils, paper, calculators, slide rules, etc. Lately, computers and the internet have taken hold. All of these are simply tools that allow the engineer to apply his/her knowledge and create their true instrument of service - the design.
The way an engineer communicates this design is via drawings. The way the design is developed is via calculations. Calculations, I would suggest, are NOT the service an engineer provides. Calculations are NOT an entity that is sold to a client.
But today, it seems, calculations are required to be part of a "submittal" to cities, agencies, etc. as part of the compilation of services that need to be checked by a reviewer, usually an engineer-type working for the governing agency.
I would appreciate comments from you all out there as to your take on this. Are calculations something that should be "reviewed" or are they my own personal tool that allow me to organize my thoughts, develop my ideas, etc. Can a reviewer say, for example, that I need to format my calcs in a particular fashion? Are they stepping beyond their function to review plans for concurrance with a building code?
I guess my bottom line is that the calcs are a road map that show, perhaps, how I got from idea to design. But they (the calcs) are usually very much open to interpretation, confusion, etc. based on the way the engineer uses them to develop his ideas. Not everyone writes down or calculates things in the same way.
Thoughts on this?
Structural engineers provide professional services to their clients. These services involve taking specialized knowledge of material behaviors and applying them in such a way as to "turn ideas into reality."
The process in getting an idea put together that is strong enough, stiff enough, ductile enough, etc. and meets the required building codes involves the engineer using various tools. Traditionally, these tools have involved pencils, paper, calculators, slide rules, etc. Lately, computers and the internet have taken hold. All of these are simply tools that allow the engineer to apply his/her knowledge and create their true instrument of service - the design.
The way an engineer communicates this design is via drawings. The way the design is developed is via calculations. Calculations, I would suggest, are NOT the service an engineer provides. Calculations are NOT an entity that is sold to a client.
But today, it seems, calculations are required to be part of a "submittal" to cities, agencies, etc. as part of the compilation of services that need to be checked by a reviewer, usually an engineer-type working for the governing agency.
I would appreciate comments from you all out there as to your take on this. Are calculations something that should be "reviewed" or are they my own personal tool that allow me to organize my thoughts, develop my ideas, etc. Can a reviewer say, for example, that I need to format my calcs in a particular fashion? Are they stepping beyond their function to review plans for concurrance with a building code?
I guess my bottom line is that the calcs are a road map that show, perhaps, how I got from idea to design. But they (the calcs) are usually very much open to interpretation, confusion, etc. based on the way the engineer uses them to develop his ideas. Not everyone writes down or calculates things in the same way.
Thoughts on this?






RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
1) As a Client I insist on calculations. In one case one steel item was very heavily designed by one consultant of International repute. Upon reviewing the calculations, we saw that while loads and stresses were changed from a previous submission, they did not change the overall sections, so as to save their drafting time. It costs a client a lot to built and he is entitled to see that what has been designed is not under/over designed. This is seen in calculations, not drawings.
2) As a consultant, I find myself in total agreement with you. I have over the years learned some tricks of the trade and intricacies of design. I saw the Dos and Donts
the hard way, by making mistakes and burning the midnight oil. The clients want all of this in just one submission! Even if they get it, how on earth they are going to see it in the light of my experience? Just a recent grad from client's office will tell me, it all is not acceptable and whether I do have any "reference" that this thing was done in past. It all is an endless round of sheer frustration when they start telling me how to do MY work.
Sometimes, I get mad at them and yell, do you ask for calculations when you buy a car? Granting you do, do you hope to get one in your lifetime?
Since, I have played both the roles, I never tell our consultants to use a "Format". Anything, from back of the envelope to paper-napkins to computer output is acceptable.
Regards.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
The designer is responsible for the calculations and in case of any suspicion the client should ask him to explain or review his work. Forcing the consultant to submit the calculations is not only the waste of paper and time but also against his copyright in some way, i think.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
As an engineer, I always welcome suggestions and comments that are intended to benefit the design. That said, drawings and calculations are the products of design and should be subject to review by anybody competent in that area. Any engineer that is confident in his or her work should not have a problem with a peer review. I have seen many engineers become offended when others critique their design, but the client and safety of the public is far more important than one's ego.
Imagine this scenario: a critical error in the design calculations is made by an engineer with 20 years of experience who could perform the calculations in his sleep. This error results in an under-designed member that could fail and result in loss of life. Sounds like a stretch you say?
I was the young engineer out of school for 3 WEEKS that found the error on a bridge design. The biggest mistake you can make is thinking that you won't make one.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
DaveAtkins
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
I agree with your example of the error, and that any engineer is capable of making errors in design.
But my main points were not dealing with quality assurance within an organization, or how an engineer checks their calcs within their department.
My points were that agencies that ask for calculations do so many times,
a. without the competency available to do anything with them,
b. when they do review them, they many times comment on the format of the calcs and not on the code requirements inherent within them, and
c. Calculations are not inherently reviewable anyway - they are extremely subject to interpretation, and mis-interpretation by people outside the engineer's organization.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
During a design review there were concerns about technical details (beam sizing, connection detailing, reinforcing steel placement, etc.) and the design firm's representatives would either gloss over the situation or provide token responses. At this point we would request the calculations, not to perform a detail check, but to use as the basis for intelligent additional questions.
Many times the design firm was correct and we would move on. Other times we might discover that the design was based on automated calculations performed by a very junior individual who had little or no understanding of engineering principals.
A third possibility was rather surprising; an engineer who was quite competent and very experienced in his own field may be tripped up by a lack of knowledge in another discipline. Here is an example:
A well qualifed foundation engineer insisted that that we would need unusually strict requirements on concrete placement temperature for 4 ft diameter, 40 ft long drilled pier caissons in soil with a very high water table. Review of his calculations revealed that he had no concept of heat transfer. On addtional questioning he insisted that the only way that heat could leave the caissons was through the top that was exposed to air. He refused to accept that the entire "cylinder" was immersed in a virtual water bath and would lose significant heat in a radial direction. As the Owner's representative we finally had to direct him to accept less strict concrete placement temperature requirements.
Result: direct cost savings >$50,000 for the project and no problems with the concrete.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
I am unfamiliar with the UBC and SBC, but my guess is that they contain the same provision. Check the administrative section of the Codes.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
The design calcs should enable another engineer to follow the design without undue confusion.
If there are design issues that a long-practicing engineer may be certain are not critical, state that assumption in the design calculation (i.e. "shear strength is OK by inspection").
There are several reasons why documentation of a design project is good. I can't think of any reason why a well organized set of design calcs would not be good.
I know organization of design calculations can take some time. I realize that the client typically is only interested in the set of plans, and that time saved on the design project generates more profit for the design company (for lump sum fees anyway), but with a well organized and complete set of design calculations, the almost inevitable call from the contractor, owner, etc. can be addressed confidently, efficiently, and fully without having to rely on memory (or the design engineer if the design engineer no longer works for the design company).
A well organized set of design calculations can be extremely helpful on future projects that may be similar (sort of a template).
A well organized set of design calculations can be extremely helpful to junior engineers or engrs-in-training. It's easy to backcheck those calcs that are included in the design notes, but how does an unexperienced engineer know what to check if it isn't in the design notes?
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
I feel that plan reviewers should have enough experience to look at a design and determine whether it meets code. It's not that tough to design something backwards if you're suspicious. Or pick up the phone and ask. Trying to wade through a couple of hundred pages of computer printouts and hand calculations is a poor use of time.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
Overall, its OK with me if anyone wants to look at my calculations.
If I start getting comments back like "I calculated a uniform load of 137 #/ft, and you used 140 #/ft. Why?" I may have a problem....
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
JedClampett - I agree with all your comments except your second sentence. I am NOT paid to do calculations. I am paid to provide engineering services to the client. Under all US state licensing laws, if I could somehow design a beam without a calculation (someday maybe possible) then I would still be performing engineering, but not creating any calculations. I know this sounds absurd but my point again is that calcs are MY tool, not an instrument of service that "others" have a right to see.
LPPE - Lack of expertise is evident many times and you're right.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
It was a rush job, took a lot of time, and was moderately expensive. (It was a force contract, so the U.S. Army paid the cost.) The really sad thing is that reportedly no one looked at them at all.
I don't mind someone reviewing my work. I do mind someone demanding calculations so they can check a box on a form...
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RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
If the scope of services includes a set of plans and a set of design calculations (like many government entities do), then you've no choice but to supply the calcs. If design calcs are not included in the scope of work and the client does request them, then you can either provide them as complimentary (good politics perhaps) or charge an appropriate fee.
I may be missing the point. I don't think I agree that calculations are solely part of YOUR tools in preparing a design. I would consider the design calculations as legal documentation of the final design. If some question arises concerning the structure, and an independant engineer is called upon to check the design, his conclusions will be based upon calculations. If you have to defend your design, you'll have to base your defense upon calculations.
With regard to misinterpretation, I again may be missing the point. A well organized set of design calculations should be such that another engineer qualified to design the same structure should be able to follow the design calculations.
With regard to Building code officials misinterpreting engineering calcs, I would not expect them to be able to follow the calcs. I would, perhaps, expect them to review the design criteria and recognize the code prescribed loads, which should be a well defined subsection of the design calculations.
By the way, (i don't always practice what i preach).
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
Much of the analysis I do is called "delegated" work from the structural engineer of record. In my resident state, there is a statutory requirement to provide calculations to the structural engineer of record for his review on all delegated work. Delegated work may be the design of structural joints for shop fabrication, design of free-standing "manufactured" structures, and a variety of other applications not directly done by the SER. Likewise, when I am the SER, I require calculations for delegated work as this is a requirement of the SER as well.
I do not feel it necessary for the SER to submit calculations for his design to a public agency. Often the public agency has little or no capability to review the design in an appropriate context and it is reasonable that two engineers may differ in their opinion as to applicable code provisions, methods of analysis, loading configurations and the like. That's called Engineering Judgment for which we have been given statutory authority to exercise as evidenced by signing and sealing a document or plan.
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RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
I don't really disagree with you on much here, just that my early training at the feet of engineers who started in the business in 1927 through 1960 all rarely, if ever, allowed anyone to see their calculations. It wasn't that the calcs were bad (they weren't) or that they were trying to hide something, but that they felt it was an affront to their professionalism, as well as their reputation and respect due to a professional.
The comparison could be made with doctors, lawyers, etc. who make all kinds of decisions in their professions through processes that many times COULD be written down but aren't. I can't ever remember seeing or hearing of a patient asking a doctor to verify his decision via calculations why he/she prescribed 50 mg of a a drug instead of 100 mg. Its his or her profession of the science in which they were trained. Not a mechanical process of following a set standard calculation.
I guess my ramblings here have to do with my dismay at the de-professionalizing of the engineering profession. We are nowadays not called upon to develop (or profess) our skills in developing a design, we are asked to show, step by step, the exact numerical bread crumb trail that got us to say, "Voila! its a W12x26!". While engineering does tend toward the process, I think we are forgetting the "profess" part of it all.
We diminish ourselves by stooping and bowing before our great kings (the reviewers) and humbly handing them our scribblings in the hope that they will be generous and, with wisdom, crown us with the glory of that most noble stamp: "PERMIT APPROVED".
If this then is our profession, then delivery boys are Communication Engineers.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
I will not be so forthcoming to spell out each and every step of the design process. The reasons are:-
1. The clients are fussy and will ask you to prove every word you divulge. An inconvenience to me.
2. There are codes. When did you realize that codes are clearly understood, have no ambiguities and need no further commentaries? I am resentful towards these code-socities who tell you to mutiply X with Y, without giving any reason, Do they take engineers as mathematically/ technically dumb?
3. You will be required to educate them the whole process of design. Where is the time?
Nevertheless, I WILL submit calculations. Just bare minimum, as per code, very elementary so that a donkey can understand them.
Generally, not the volume of submission, but time taken for approval is the main problem. I realize the importance of calculations but if the client can be satisfied with just STAAD crap, why give more?
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RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
Some of the previous posts seem to be addressing different questions. Of course independent checking of calculations is important for quality control. And yes, sometimes calculations are required to be submitted to fulfill permitting or contractual requirements. But those points are not central to the issue of whether calculations are instruments of service.
I was trained by one of the largest structural engineering firms in the U.S. to destroy the calculations after a project was complete. The reasoning was that the drawings and specifications were the real instruments of service. The calculations are only an intermediate step in the process of producing these instruments.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
I think I can not fully agree with you on this ideology. Engineering is more of science than art. It evolved in a scientific manner and is passed on to us by generations. To treat its rules, formula, proposition as personal thoughts does not do justice to its rightful owner - the world.
Our use of engineering and telling others how we used it goes very well with my mind when I see that what I was taught during my education far outweighs what I learnt on my own. Doctors and others doing something different does change this basic fact.
The calculations which is based on existing maths and engineering belongs to the world and is part of your service to the world. Without calculations, someday I would be specifying enormous sizes, without even calculating and still be as much of an engineer as the one who computes. Then everyone has a right to be an engineer, educated or not. And I can go on stretching this to insane limits...
Regards.
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RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
1) 10 years from now, we can back up the design with the calc's, even if the designer has moved, retired, or been hit by a bus.
2) If we're considering a change, we can check ourselves to see if it seems to be reasonable. If it's OK or borderline, then we can go back to the engineer for an update. If we're way off, then we know that we need to reassess the situation.
3) I like to do spot checking. It's not that I don't have confidence in the designer (or I wouldn't hire them to begin with) but my personality is such that I sleep better if I understand the "whys and wherefores". To quote Ronnie Ray-Gun, "Trust but verify."
4) If we're looking at a similar project, we can use the existing design calculations for estimating purposes on the new job. Otherwise, I've seen people try to apply linear scaling to a decidely non-linear case.
5) To me, it's just good practice. If I'm the customer, and I include it in my scope, then it shouldn't be a problem.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
flame: I cannot agree with you that "the world" somehow owns my calculations....at least not in a free capitalistic society.
NanoMan: Your first sentence gives away exactly the underlying point I'm making. You say "When we purchase structural designs...". A client does not really purchase a structural design, like going into a store and picking out a shirt. They rather buy a service...a practice of an engineer in allowing the client to realize their dreams of a bridge or building. They are hiring the engineer to facilitate this process....they are not hiring labor, calculations, drawings, etc...
Also, 10 years from now, or 100 years from now, you do not NEED the original calculations if you have the original drawings to check a structure. In fact, I would argue that its better not to have the original calculations as you'd get a more objective check.
In reading the posts above, I feel that I've quite gone over the edge and ranted quite enough. I really appreciate the friendly debate and discussion - this started from a recent experience of mine and I thought I'd vent a bit...but all the posts above have added a lot to the whole issue - I just fear we engineers are creeping away from our professional roots and slowly becoming a commodity.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
Rant away! I agree with your position wholeheartedly. Guess I'll be fighting against submissions in the future...
(I don't get asked for mine - guess the agencies don't know what to do with us 'dirt guys'!)
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RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
Destroying the calculations was mostly a liability issue. Say your calculations indicate that #4 bars at 8" were required in a slab. But for economic reasons you change your mind and provide #5 bars at 12" but don't go back and change the calcs. The strength is the same either way but non-technical people in the legal system aren't going to understand that. Their opinions can be easily swayed by lawyers to arrive at the conclusion that there is something wrong with the design. That's a simplistic example, but you get the point. As you pointed out, calcs are very much subject to interpretation.
The company's position was that if the design as shown on the drawings is code-compliant, then it doesn't matter what the calculations say. Structures don't get built according to calculations, they get built according to drawings.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
All of the firms that I have worked at have kept calcs and sketches (and just about every other scrap of paper related to the job) as a record of the design process. Now that most firms are using software to a larger extent, I would think that backup CD's etc are kept of all design documents.
How does it sound in court, "no your honour, we destroyed the calculations as they are not part of the service provided".
As for the excuse given that lawyers can twist what is written, it doesn't wash as a reasonable engineer will either document the change by a file note or be able to adequately explain that the change makes no difference to the design apart from sizes and numbers.
Structures do get built according to calculations as drawings are drawn to represent the results of the calculations.
My rant
sc
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
I just hang here (occasionally)
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
Here's a few of my miscellaneous ramblings (for whatever they're worth).
In my younger days, I once worked with another structural engineer in Chicago who did all of his calculations AFTER he finished the drawings. He'd punch the numbers and figure the sizes, and throw them on the drawings, but he wouldn't put pencil to paper on the calc sheet until he was all done. Can't say I would always agree with the method, but it was to guard against discrepancies in design vs. what showed up on the drawings that Taro alluded to.
Finally, several years ago, I had to do a foundation design for an aerospace project in So. California (I reside in the Midwest) where the calculations had to be submitted to the local plan reviewer. A few weeks later, I got a call from the reviewer who said he didn't understand my design. As much as I tried to explain over the phone, he insisted on a face-to-face meeting to discuss my calculations. I had the reviewer call my client to let him know that the permit would not be issued without this meeting. Reluctantly, the Owner agreed to fly me out there for the meeting (additional cost to them for plane tickets, hotels, meals, and my added time). Fortunately, the Architect and an Owner's representative accompanied me, because the meeting was almost comical. It lasted about 20 minutes, and involved the reviewer (a young, inexperienced engineer) asking me about 5 or 6 questions, which were easily explained, and already documented (he just really hadn't looked at the calculations). He gave my client and the Owner the permit that afternoon.
Had it been my money, I would have been PO'ed too. I got a free trip to sunny California in January, but I've always resented the nonsense involved in the calculation submittal process, too.
When, as an SER, I ask for calcs from vendors, I usually just check for the design criteria, and spot check the method. When I have to submit my calcs to someone else, I expect the same level of scrutiny, especially if they don't really know what they're looking at.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
If there is a lawsuit you can always go back and recreate calculations that prove the adequacy of the design. In fact, you might want to do that even if you still had the calcs to sharpen your pencil and eliminate some of the "guesstimates" that are always a part of design.
The VP and CFO of the company was also the president of the American Society of Civil Engineers Structural Engineering Institute (SEI). He knows his stuff when it comes to risk management, so I believe him when he says there is less potential liability with destroying the calcs.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
When performing a peer review, I check and coordinate the plans, never the calcs. As soon as one looks at the calcs they can't help being "sucked into" the same design philosophies and assumptions. The review is no longer independent.
Structures usually fail because of gross mistakes in the basic assumptions or the connections. An experienced engineer needs to spot mistakes by studying the plans, not by checking arithmetic.
Any check can only be performed by locating the questionable areas and performing a truly independent check. I find it about as fast to recalculate as to read another’s calc's anyway. I will, on occasion, ask for FEA inputs for more complex structures to save me modeling time.
I avoid submitting calc's for this reason as well as all those previously mentioned. I enjoy an independent check of my work but if someone questions a beam on my plan, let him or her send me his or her check calc. Comments?
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
A most interesting topic. I agree with your views.
Here in South Africa the calcs are seldom asked for or reviewed by the building control authorities. However peer review (inside or outside one's organisation is not uncommon).
I agree with RASmith that if calcs are submitted for review, then the arithmetic is not the main thing to be checked. If the checker is competent then they should be able to do the arithmetic themselves using their own tools like software and tables and spreadsheets. In some cases these tools are proprietary items that I would consider my professional briefcase.
I believe that if 'design information' is to be submitted for review, then the important items are the INPUT such as
load cases, geotechnical and environmental parameters, applied loads, service and dimensional requirements, material properties, analysis assumptions etc
and the OUTPUT such as calculated deflections, stability factors, dynamic response, safety factors etc and of course drawings and project specifications. A competent checking engineer should assess the correctness of the INPUT and then use their own methods to confirm the OUTPUT. Just checking someone else's arithmetic is no way to check a design.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
To make things more complex, in one recent situation where I was doing a peer review, I asked the engineer for his calculations. I was provided with over 100 pages of STAAD Pro dumb that 90% of it was useless. All I needed is the input model. The scary part was that was the first time the engineer ever used STAAD! He had seven load cases; he ran the model seven times in lieu of creating basic load cases and load combinations in one model. His method was not wrong; however, it was frustrating to me and it was very inefficient procedure.
I agree with two arguments made above. The first is checking others’ calculations will suck you in to their approach and the second I firmly believe that I can do any calculations if I have the drawings and the design criteria. Sometimes in absence or presence of drawings I still do field investigations and measurements. I do not have time to tell the horror stories that I discover while doing field investigations. Changes that are done, during construction, that go by unnoticed by owners and sometimes engineers.
Now I step of my soapbox.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
With almost everyone doing some form of computerized calcs now, what Lutfi mentioned makes me wonder what are the reviewers accomplishing if the programs are inaccurate? If my calcs are going to be scrutinized, and for instance I did my model in RAM or some other program where there is not a full explanation of how the program got from input to answer, shouldn't the program code also be getting scrutinized for accuracy?
I feel if I am taking responsiblity by signing the drawings, I shouldn't have to prove how I reached my drawing data to anyone. However at the same time, I always feel better when someone looks over my design, calcs included.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
So, calculations and the need for them - differs perhaps from structural engineers to geotechs or irrigation engineers. Do you give them to the client - if he has a legal right to them, i.e., it is a contractual obligation, then yes, you must give them to him. If not, no. I would always welcome an honest peer review, though, with a chance to defend my numbers, so to speak.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
I dealt with that very issue in 1990/1991 while working in southern California. My employer was selected to do the geotechnical design for a large interchange of one of the proposed Orange County toll roads. It was principally my project. What a headache! The bureaucrats in charge had no idea what to expect from the local ground conditions, or even what many of the important design/construction issues were. (They did 'get it' on the earthquake issue.) All they wanted to do was limit the costs.
And they nitpicked our calculations - insisted on justification of every design approach. It was far worse than grad school - at least I could expect that my professors understood the principal design approaches for embankments and bridges.
I can see why some would destroy their calculations in order to avoid that experience in a lawsuit -
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RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
JAE can keep his calculations to himself while flame
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
A doctor isn't asked for his step-by-step process of diagnosis and treatment. Yes, the drugs he uses are tested but so are my welds, concrete, steel, bolts, etc. But his PRACTICE of medicine is not reviewed each and every time by another doctor. Only when there are problems does a review board get involved. And then, the review board is populated by other qualified doctors, not government bureacrats. The patient doesn't ask for the doctors justification for all his steps in healing.
I can just see a patient saying, "Well that's great, doc, that you want me to stop eating bacon, go through a procedure to clear up my veins, and then do a bypass surgery on my heart, but before all that, doc, I need to see all your logic and diagnosis procedure written down and cross referenced to medical journals and texts before I'll believe you have correctly suggested the right thing for me." We don't do that because the state has LICENSED the guy and verified that he knows what he's doing. The patient is paying for the healing service - not the process of getting there...that's the domain of the doctor himself.
Likewise, we engineers are LICENSED to practice. We are identified as having the proper education and experience and are qualified to perform engineering services....
So when we submit plans for permits, a governing body should not HAVE to see our calcs. It is unecessary. It is stupid because the reviewers many times don't understand what they are reviewing anyway.
flame, you really hit the point - "if you have a high repute, probably you can get away without showing your dseign...", By submitting calcs to a government lacky, we have really lost our engineering "repute".
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
Only a Prof. Engineer is competent to review our work. If we are asked by another P.Eng about our work we require him to submit his question to us in writing and as 'Engineers of Record' we will consider the query. We also inform them, in writing, that they are now a full participant in the future liability with us of the total project and that we consider this to be fair, amazingly enough I would say more than 3/4 of them never respond after this. We also inform them that they are bound to deal with us directly and never through our client. This is a 'Professionalism' issue.
We are fortunate to never have been involved in Public (Government) works. I learned from an 'older' engineer never to get involved with 'pissing' matches with other structural engineers. We are fortunate to always have been to busy and therefore always have turned down the request to review another structural engineers work.
Forensic Engineering we do a fair bit of it. When we find a problem we always work it out with the 'Engineer of Record' before the client or public ever gets knowledge of what happened. We never get involved in strength type failures, only serviceability type failures. We have been involved in one Disiplinary Hearing, not as the defendant, brought forward by a Chief Building Official, and it turned my stomach.
You want our calculations you'd better be ready to fight if you can't figure it out yourself. There is an 'artistic' side to structural, thank-god, and it's knowledge built up over a long time.
I'm knocking on wood all over the place right now!!!!
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
Though I was playing devil's advocate, I sigh how true it is for us.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
If my calculations say for example a W21x62 beam is requided. due to a drafting errror, the drawings specified a W12x26 (same numbers.....different order). Do I get partial credit in the lawsuit? Can I use the argument....My calculations are correct....The wrong beam size was written down... i should get some credit for properly calculating the beam....My draftsman is dislexic (I get no credit for spelling...) and transcribed the beam size.
No...... you still are sued on what was on the drawings. Therefore.....calc's are work product.
RE: Calculations: Personal Tool or Public Record
agree you you as well, my point wrt. 'Permit Drawings' as well.