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Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.
31

Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

(OP)
In the UK, tradesmen such as plumbers, plasterers, bricklayers, joiners and electricians earn far more than fully qualified and experienced engineers.

Generally you can become a tradesman in a couple of years on the job training and perhaps a short college course. Compare this with a minimum of 6 years full time study and four years post grad experience to become a professional engineer.

Is the UK the only country to have this kind of job market or do other countries also experience this?

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

3
Don't stop there, you can earn more in pretty well any job except engineering and i include some management level jobs.

Be a train driver, for example.

I've know a few engineers jack it in an become self employed gas fitters, plumbers and a few other things besides.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

I have been thinking this for a long time. I like to
tinker with things, build stuff, make measurements, analyze
problems etc..  but my engineering jobs have been
scheduling, meetings, negotiating with dishonest
backstabbing people, perpetual 24/7 stress, sleepless nights etc...
I have watched the health of my coworkers deteriorate
before my eyes at an astonishing rate,far in excess of what
would be considered normal, all because of the constant
PUSH PUSH PUSH for goals that cannot be met.
I want to switch jobs to more a technician position that
just work with hands on and do the things I like. I will
take 1/2 pay just leave me to do the things I know I can
acomplish and leave the building every day without the
sense of dread and failure that is common with
impossible scheduals and goals.
However most employers wont hire this way because of
overqualified arguement.  How should a person convice them
I will be a happier and more productive at this level.

I know I am a whiner.
But I want to live a little before being covered with dirt

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

3
Have you tried plumbing?  It's hard, messy work, and can take a bit of brainpower, as well.

There are two types of people in the world: the kind that believe that people can be categorized into one of two groups and the kind that don't.
http://www.EsoxRepublic.com

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

4
TheTick

Sooner or later everyone need a plumber, and when they do they are desperate and will pay what ever they have to.  In constrast many people don't know what engineers do and could not conceive of using one if they did know what they do.

Chris9- It works the same way here in the colonies.  A lot of engineers seem to have distain for electricans and their unions.  Mean while out in the parking lot the engineers get in theri Saturns and Toyotas and the electricans get in their SUVs and Corvettes.  We could learn something from them but we are to smart.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

2
You will always find inequalities in pay. Years ago, I found out that striking baggage handlers with two yrs experience at the local bus station were making more than me as a degreed engineer with the same experience. At a later time, I found that dock workers at the local freight company were making more.

Last year, my brother-in-law, a chemical engineer at a major oil company, lost his R&D job when two corporations merged, yet they kept all the presidents and vice presidents after the merger (and paid them 7 figure bonuses for staying!!!).

At times (in fact most of the time), you can only be in engineering because you love it. Why else would you work under and be directed by management that doesn't have technical degrees (and sometimes only a high-school diploma) just so when your idea proves to be unique, to sign away the patent rights for $1.

Lets face it, engineers do it because we, in our own way, are a kind of artist, whose canvas is the 'practical' and whose paint are the physical natural laws which we blend together to make something good for others, while fighting entropy in all it's forms.

Thread731-82110

And, 2dye4, frequently the lower paying engineering jobs are the MOST stressful, because any company that pays you low doesn't consider you to be worth much as a person either. Believe me, I've been there and done that!

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

2
In the United States, Union wages are protected for the bidding of all government contracts by the Davis-Bacon Act.  Many types of jobs are easily outsourced to the lowest bidder; however, construction jobs paid by government contracts require the winning bidder to pay their workers comparable wages to that of the Union in the area where the work is performed.    As such, it makes it difficult for these types of construction jobs to be economically outsourced.   It is cheaper to use local labor if local skilled personnel are available.  

This is in effect price control.  With price control market forces cannot yield the lowest cost.  Hence you have construction jobs paying more than market forces would dictate.

Now engineering is easily outsourced and there are no government price controls.  This yields an engineering work force that is paid what they are worth.  The question is not why engineers are paid less than trade workers; but instead, why do we as a country tolerate price fixing for union jobs?  

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

I have met meny engineers who think Union Electricans get their high wages buy some gangster like organization.   They have in the past gotten aggressive ( read the histroy of the IWW) but those cases are often over played by oponents of organized labor.
Those same oponets are not doubt happy with the current state of engineering. You can hire engineers cheaply and if you find a cheper one fire the first and put the second one on the books.  
Unions have their roots in the craft guilds goning back to the middle ages and before.  They protected their income with an organization and by controlling the quality of their work.  Engineers don't do much to control the quality of their work.  Some are good and some are better.  From an employers perspective there all just engineers.  As Engineers salrys go down do you think the quality of engineering will get better?  Are better people going to  attracted to it?
The Davis Bacon Act becsuse the Unions are active in politics.  Indivual engineers probably don't make enough political contributions to make a 5 second TV commercial in the presidential campaign.  Engineering companies do, but their goals are not the same and indivual engineers. Unions hire lobbiest so do doctors, teachers, pharmacists, airline pilots, etc.  Everyone except engineers who think they are above such things.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

BJC

I am not an opponent of organized labor.  I am an opponent of having my government involved in price control.  In the end, price control of any commodity can only raise the standard of living for some at the expense of others.  When I shop for goods, I have the choice to purchase products based on quality of goods and price (AKA value).  When you limit your selection of goods that have there prices fixed for a given market; rarely do you end up with good value.  So the David-Bacon Act creates poor value in the market place at the expense of others.  

I am not sure how you determine that ”Engineers don't do much to control the quality of their work.”   Are you talking about industry exempt engineers?  

CRG

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

6
(OP)
I was offered two jobs when I left school. One was a gas pipe fitter and the other a junior draughtsman with prospects of attaining Chartered Engineer status. I opted for the latter because it sounded like the best job at the time.

I like my job but when you have a family to support you owe it to them to earn a decent living. My salary isn't that bad for an engineer just average. Even with 15 years experience and 8 years academic study under my belt I am seriously considering re-training as a tradesman.

My 20 year old friend earns double what I do with 2 years experience as a brick layer. I will be advising my child NOT to be an engineer and I think millions of others feel the same way.

It's a shame that our goverment allows and sometimes actively encourages the loss of engineering jobs to India and China.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

2
Generally engineers in the UK qualify in only 3 to 4 years and most often with only a HNC (which is below the level of a degree). For 6 years study then you'd have to be studying to be an architect. Additional post graduate qualifications in engineering are rare and generally take a few years for a doctorate, one year for a Masters. Most prefer to settle for chartered status which you get after a few years if you fill in a few forms and pay your dues, it seems. The headline grabbing story that plumbers earn 60k a year is pretty much a fallacy in general and probably limited to the confines of London. Mostly they do run their own businesses hwoever whereas engineers tend to prefer to work for someone else. As far as telling the taxman goes I'm sure that plumbers earn a mere pittance.

corus

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

(OP)
corus,

To be a brick layer requires a 1 year city and guilds and some on the job experience. To be a Chartered Engineer requires 2 years for A levels and 4 years for an MEng plus 4 years experience in a position of responsibility.

Employed brick layers I know get £1000 per week in Birmingham (If they don't do overtime). I don't know any Chartered Engineers who earn that who are not company directors.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

2
I was 45 when the company that I worked for as Chief Engineer was taken over by assett strippers. They wanted to flatten (and dispense with) my R&D dept to make a road into the rear car park to build property. I said 'its over my dead body', and it was! I remember the big boss telling me that I would one day thank him for chucking me out. Well I don't, but it started me on a path to being my own boss. I would never have gone this way on my own, and I am sad to say that that because new product development was halted that particular engineering business, which employed over 300 people and had been in business since the 1920's went down the pan.
After 16 years during which I looked forward to going to work every day, and earnt lots more money, I am glad I went down the route of starting a business. It was hard at first, but it has been very rewarding in many ways.
Be proud that you are an engineer, you have completed a really tough, academically challenging training. Its a waste for a real engineer to go down the tradesman route. Better to use your skill and knowledge to do your own thing, and build some sort of business around that, rather than simply fritter all that hard learned knowledge away on being a tradesman. Self employment, and building a business may not be right for everyone, some engineers are just 'meetings engineers', they have no skill except perhaps project management and organising ability. But even for them, there are possibilities.
Engineering teaches you to build things, build them right and and build them safe. Unlike Accountants, you can see into the future, and what could be, rather than just fill a sheet with figures telling what happened. You should be able to plan, project, and test the viability of a product, a service, or a project because that was how you were trained. Its a waste to squander all that skill and knowledge by simply become a tradesman. Unlike me, if you are dissatisfied with working for a platry sum for other people, give yourself the luxury of planning out your path to a more rewarding career, and make that jump.

"Putting Automation into CAD ©"

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

I really am at a loss as to where engineers get the idea that their efforts are more valuable than those of nearly every blue collar tradesman, to the point where they are personally offended by the idea.  No one with any credibility made that assertion when I was in school.  My school failed to teach me that.  Perhaps they should lose their accreditation for that oversight.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

CRG
Most unions take an active part in the state boards that regulate and govern their activities.  They have monthly meetings and discuss such things.  Engineers for the most part leave to others (which in most cases. turns out to be those who run smaller engineering firms).
Unions are very active in setting the requirements for education and experience in their trade.  Engineers leave it to others.  Engineers could learn from them.  As I said the roots of such activities are in the guilds where people took pride in their work.  Engineers take pride in their work but seem to be clueless in protecting it or themselves.
Most of the goods you buy have their prices fixed one way or the other.  I think it's just easier to think you see it if the money goes to a union electrician on a Davis Bacon job.  Money doesn’t stay in any one’s pocket long, some of it probably gets around to you. I've worked on several jobs that were in part funded by union pension funds.
I'm not sure about quality of work, hard to define.   If there is an engineer doing shoddy work what happens to him or her.   Most of his or her peers never hear of it and probably don't care.  
As for industry exempt engineers they are for the most part super technicians.  I not trying to agitate anyone but if you draw two boundaries, one being professional (say like doctors) an the other 100% craftsman ( like electricians). The answer is how most engineers work and how are they treated by their employers.  The answer (happily for the company) is near the craftsman end and without the bothersome union.
I am not in a union but a lot of engineers have pre-conceived ideals that keep them from learning.  If your have the oppotunity talk with a local union official you may be surprised.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

BJC

Are you a registered professional engineer?  It seems that by your response that you would be in favor of requiring all engineers to become licensed professionals.  This would result in having control over quality of education, experience, and ongoing education that you like with the unions. If you have the opportunity to talk with members of the state licensing board for professional engineers or professional engineers, you may be surprised.  

CRG

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

CRG
I am registered in 6 states and do talk with memebers of the board.  I have been asked to set on the board. I have more time now and may do so.
I think engineers are important to society and the wellfare of everyone on the planet.  Engineers are the ultimate economist.  
Being important as they are why are they paid so poorly in respect to other professions?  My point stated poorly as is was (and with comparison to trade unions)  was that engineers may be their own worst enemy.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.


Folks,

Lets remember that tradespeople generally work longer hours, odd hours, odd days and in all kinds of weather. They also have a greater exposure to injury than engineers. When you factor these things in, the wages are about the same for tradespeople and engineers.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Well i don't know what sort of hours you work but i work pretty well all the hours God sends.
And safe? Well, how safe is a land lubber on fuelling barge in the Baltic?
Now i survived several trips to an oil refinery in Southern siberia but on one trip a colleague succumbed to too much potato juice (it arrived at the table in an almost identical bottle to the bottled water) and on another another colleague was too polite to send his chicken back to the kitchen for a second time and spent a week in hospital with food poisoning. The reason we were there was to help overcome the problem of their workers having to clamber around on tanks in weather worse than the 30degC below that i experienced.

I have spent several months doing my normal office week and then flying off to Portugal each weekend for several months to work on trial equipment in a power station which meant only 2-4hrs sleep over the weekend.

No overtime, no time in lieu, no thanks either, no that i think of it.

I am sure many of the members here will think this is cushy stuff.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

I take my hat off to you jmw, it is people like you who keep this world running.

I hope that some day your contributions will be more appropriately recognized and rewarded.

By the way, thanks Chris9 for starting this thread.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

I doubt it.

I am just illustrating the real problem with engineers; they have too much fun doing their work to remember to chase the money and material rewards down.

Engineers are easy prey for the HR types and the accountants to exploit.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

How many bricklayers, plumbers, builders, etc work till retirement in their chosen profession. Many leave in their late 40's early 50's because their bodies have had enough.

How many engineers fail to retire at 65 because they love the work? I know of at least 10 in my town. The oldest is 73 and still going strong (or being a pain in the a$@).

regards
sc

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

(OP)
SC,

It must be nice to find a job that you love doing so much that you will work until 73.

I think I'll spend my retirement playing golf and travelling, assuming I can afford to retire at 65 and I live that long.   

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Hello Chris9:

This is a very interesting thread because of the many diverse - and sometimes contradictory - opinions expressed by the participants.

Some feel the trades people are overpaid.   Others feel that engineers should be happy with the lower salaries, because they are compensated by having more interesting and less physically demanding jobs, plus better working conditions (though it has been pointed out that not all engineers work in air conditioned offices).

Who is right?  I think that the difference in salary levels is mainly due to the fact that trades people have more bargaining power than engineers.    Employers usually have the luxury of time and can afford to shop around for engineers that fit their price range.   As far as I know it has always been this way, and if anything the salary levels for engineers are headed downward now that outsourcing to the third world is getting into full swing.

There is nothing wrong in comparing your salary to that of trades people,  but don't stop there.  Look at the salaries of bankers, stockbrokers, real estate agents etc.  These people also enjoy comfortable working conditions and often earn astronomically more than trades people.  

And they don't feel guilty about it.

Maybe you will be happy as a bricklayer, but if you are considering leaving engineering anyway, take a look at some of the careers available in business before you settle on a final choice.

Good Luck to all of us!

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

3
One of the reasons tradesmen may be paid more is that they produce a directly sellable commodity - something that results in immediate or short term revenue. This is why there are many developers/builders who are millionaires, but fewer engineers - because they produce products that are sold at a high profit margin.  Consequently, they can pay their labor a higher rate to be more productive.

Do autoworkers make more than automotive engineers?  I don't know, but an autoworker is directly responsible for how many automobiles that are produced and sold.  The contribution of the engineer, though perhaps equally or even more important to sales, is more abstract and difficult to quantify.

This condition is not limited to engineers, but is common to many scientific professions where research or critical thinking is a primary focus.  Revenue drives all business decisions, including compensation. Unfortunately it can be difficult for management to connect revenue DIRECTLY to research and engineering in a tangible way.

The real answer here is that if you are happy laying bricks, go make money!  If you want an intellectually challenging position where you think and solve problems, and are rewarded with non-monetary compensations that brick-laying can't match, then become and engineer.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Very well put 4tuna.  

It may be years (if ever) before the work that an engineer does today becomes part of a product that is sold and generates revenue.  I believe that this delay factor is the prime cause of the poor bargaining position most engineers find themselves in, and hence the lower salaries.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Where there is a demand and short supply then prices will go up. This would also be true for engineers. So if all 236,000 of you who log into this forum resigned and became bricklayers, I'd be a richer man. It's worth thinking about, please.

corus

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

"Do autoworkers make more than automotive engineers?  I don't know, but an autoworker is directly responsible for how many automobiles that are produced and sold.  The contribution of the engineer, though perhaps equally or even more important to sales, is more abstract and difficult to quantify."

I work for a car manufacturer in Australia. We pay our shop floor guys 30-40 thousand (Australian), top mechanic or technician 50k, starting graduate engineer 45 k (bit flaky on that, might be 50) top engineer 96k. Bear in mind that there are shift allowances and overtime paid by the book and other benefits, and the terms and conditions are not the same. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that the trades guys get another 10k one way or another.

As to the second part, well, I haven't seen it broken down like that, it isn't the way we think. In product engineering we know that the plant have to be able to build our design, if they can't build it well that is OUR problem. A design that is deemed unnattractive, even if it is well engineered and assembled, can kill the profitability of that model. Yet people will buy more attractive, less well assembled cars.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Sorry guys

Coming in at the tail end, but if money is the be-all about being an engineer, then the answer is simple, go free-lance and double/triple your staff pay.

No union dues, no hoildays, your own pension and medical insurance, usually much better anyway, best of all no annoying bosses. Free-lance is a two edged sword, if I don't like it I can walk, usually within 1 week.

I've been freelance for 20 years, sure there are bad times, but when asked when am I going to get a career I point to 18 years of work with 12 differnt companies spead all over the world.

Pie Eater

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

(OP)
In my line of work (FEA), if I get the analysis right every time and we don't have any component failures then people start to wonder what I'm doing all day. If nothing ever breaks then why do we need an FE Analyst? Surely it would have been OK anyway!

I’ve saved the company treble my annual salary in just two weeks by preventing an almighty mess up. But again you can’t prove this because it probably would have been all right anyway without me, right?

The true value of an engineer is very hard to prove to shareholders.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Chris, you hit the nail on the head!

Products and components that work right first time and every time quickly are forgotten. Every one is focussed on todays problem device.

I have times when discussions with the client have bordered on the absurd; " I know you have one of our widgets, we sold it to you 20 years ago. No i don't think you can have replaced it, why would you?" Sure enough, you get to site, you take them on their own plant and you show it to them.

The frightening thing is that if this did go wrong they'd be a week finding it and then tell you how rotten it is , it's never worked right, it's no good and it's costing them $kkkks every minute it's not working.

Paradoxically, products that don't work right first time or everytime can get you a better rep than those that do. It's all about response. These are reasonable guys, they know s**t happens. They are very impressed by the speed with which a service engineer turns up (at $600 a day plus expenses), how polite and helpful he is and how quickly he got it all back together. He now comes so often he has his own reserved bay in the car park.

This is now a good product in a difficult application where you "gotta expect the occasional problem" but backed by great service.

No one has heard of the better product they have elsewhere on the plant which does a better job under worse conditions and never goes wrong.

Moral: to be a success you've got be a problem.

Actually, there is a story that you  might think appropriate: A man is sitting on a train tearing up newspapers into tiny pieces and spreading them all over the floor. Another passenger finally gets the courage to ask why he is doing it. "It's to keep the elephants away." he replies in all seriousnees." "What elephants, there are no elephants." replies the passenger. "I know, effective, isn't it."

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Hi Again chris9:

In your last post you mention that your work in FEA saves your company far more than your salary.  This is all well and good, but take a look at the thread:

Small Business Sourcing of Offshore Engineering>
Thread730-86935

and let the following comment sink in:

"I think primarily I might be interested in sourcing some FEA and possibly looking into a little CFD in the future.  Pure CAD, if any, would be Solidworks.  Small, simple jobs for the FEA."

Your company appreciates that your job contributes to their profitability, but they are almost certainly considering the possibility of saving 80% of your salary by having your job done overseas.

I'm not sure about becoming a brick layer (not at my age) but I think that I (and most of the people in this forum as well) should consider some type of fallback job just in case.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

(OP)
Lorentz,

My company was already outsourcing FEA work to India before I joined. You may get the analysis for half the price but don’t expect the results to be correct unless you are prepared to spend time writing work instructions and thoroughly checking every detail. Unless the Indian companies (or any company anywhere) spend time with Design Engineers they are unlikely to appreciate the scope of the problem and come up with viable solutions.

My company underestimated this and paid a heavy price and this is the reason they employed me.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Hi Once More chris9

I hope that your company continues to feel the need for onsite engineers such as yourself, but I still worry about what will remain of engineering by the end of this decade.

I think a lot of the problems with the initial outsourcing experiments will be cleared up as companies on both sides of the world become more experienced.  Eventually a new equilibrium level of employment will be reached, and no one knows yet what this will be.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

We've now hit on another aspect of the commodity vs. service idea presented above.  It is possible to outsource engineering services to cheaper markets. If comptetition in any field is not geographically limited, cost and salaries will be lower.

E.g., you can't outsource a bricklayer to India.  With direct work such as plumbing or bricklaying, you are geographically limited and hence less competition - you pretty much have to pay the going rate. With commodities, it is only reasonable to outsource to other geographic areas when the labor rates offset the cost of transportation. With engineering, these limitations don't apply.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

The most desirable career path might be to work 15 or 20 years as a brick layer, save some money, take a vacation in engineering school and work the easy life for the rest of your career.  

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

chris9,

I intend to retire early (hopefully 55) and then spend my retirement having a ball travelling, lounging about , going water skiing, annoying my kids and just plain doing what I please when I please (providing the wife says its OK).

Only 16 years to go . . . . . . .

sc

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

SC,

When you do retire then, you will want to move to a country or location where you can make the most of the exchange rates.  Kind of like "offshoring retirees".  The cost of living in the US is not going to go down any time soon (if at all).  If you have 40 years of life expectancy left, it will eat into your accumulated wealth at an astounding rate.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Although I am an engineer, I cant get myself to agree with what most of you are saying about tradespeople earning more money and driving SUV's. Lets face it, how many of you would like to look at your future and feel comfertable with how it looks knowing that you will be laying bricks for the rest of your life, or welding pipe in someones bathroom?

I know I would not be wanting to lay bricks in the middle of winter 7 in the morning. And I certainly do not enjoy having two lumps for hands after having worked as a tradesman for all my life.

Also, when you are a tradesman, no matter how good you are, you will have a capping on your salary, whereas when you are an engineer the sky is the limit.

How many tradesman do we know who can charge $US150 per hour for their "thoughts" on a technical issue? Or who can charge thousends for signing off designs?

I think over the long term, engineers are better off.

StormXTC

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Engineers tend to be practical (i.e., cheap) by nature, so they tend to live modestly.  I believe that is why you don't see a lot of engineers that drive expensive SUV's and sports cars.

Engineers often complain that they cannot afford things like expensive cars, houses, etc., when in truth they can afford these things, but are unwilling to finance with little down and/or potentially high rates.

The fact that you see a tradesman with a nicer car or house than you does not mean that they make more money than engineers.  I think they're just more willing to buy homes and cars with 0-5% down.  As an analytical and conservative person (as many engineers are), it is difficult to do this.

Tradesmen might say they are "living life;" an engineer may say that the tradesmen are "living beyond their means."

Haf

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

In the U.S., many tradesmen are self-employed, which allows for all kinds of tax breaks.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

The same thing applies in the UK, most tradesmen are self employed which is why you will never see an advertisement for a plumber at 60k. As far as the tax man is concerned, a plumber's income may be high but his outgoings will also be high and actual taxable earnings will be modestly low, that is assuming they have a good accountant.

corus

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

And some cash in hand jobs.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

(OP)
That is a major advantage of being a tradesman. How many times have you paid someone cash in hand? A self employed engineer can't wipe someone's a*se without providing a VAT receipt.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Yes its all true, building seems to be the thing at the moment, but for how long. And I agree that you can earn a lot more for doing a lot less. I spent 20 years on my tools until the challenge waned, then went and did a degree, and subsequently found it impossible to get a job that would encourage me to use my new skills. So I left engineering and now work as a consultant helping small firms to get going. Not what I wanted but I am not prepared to do something for nothing, which is what most engineering companies seem to expect. I now have no stress I work good hours and I am home every night. One day I hope to return to engineering but not until the industry gets its act together.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

I have not experienced what most of you are talking about.  I make as much as most trades people and I'm an EIT (engineer in training).  Well the trades people are earning their max, I'm just beginning my career.  When I have 10 years of experience I will be earning more than tradespeople with 30 years experience.

The only place I have seen tradespeople earn more than engineers is in England.  In England the garbageman is a sanitation engineer so I guess noone has much respect for the title "engineer".

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

(OP)
England is a nation of shopkeepers and salesmen. There must be a stage when we can no longer prop up the economy by shining each others shoes and borrowing money to pay each other for the service.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Just to add to the good debate started by Chris9, a little experience of my own to help lighten the mood:

One leaking bath, two plumbers at £40 per hr plus callout fee failed to fix it. Myself a lowly Materials Engineer admitted defeat and fixed it myself using 5000psi pipeline fittings applying usual design codes. Result - Even my mother in law can use the bath without fear of leakage!

Seriously though, I know of a number of pipeline engineers who have considered going into plumbing, and I know of technicians who do plumbing jobs at weekends to supplement their income.

I guess it boils down to supply and demand. More people have houses with plumbing problems than companies with engineering needs (generated I guess from the decline in the manufacturing industry particularly in the UK).

In summary, friends of mine who are trademen work very long hours, for themselves, and will have their mortgages paid off long before me. Good luck to them and more fool me!
 

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

I always wondered about that jibe by Napoleon.
It would appear to be another of those backhanded compliments.
A recent TV program from onbe of the competeing TV Historians explained that till Wedwood etc we didn't have shops, people got most of what they wanted from the local market.
So it's all about the industrial revolution and all the innovations that came with it.
It does reflect on engineering very well.

Another thing to thank Napoleon for is the different plumbing in the South of England... the water tank included in southern houses is to enable each householder to ahve a store of water should the French invade.

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

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RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

So, realistically, around the world, do self-employed plumbers, on average, earn more than self-employed engineers?

Or could this whole thread just possibly be based on one example of an experienced  self-employed plumber vs a presumably fairly young engineer working for a company full time?

Mind you, since the Institute(s) of (various) Engineers in the UK consistently push for /more/ engineering graduates, one can only assume that they perceive that their Members are in desperately short supply.... For some reason the laws of supply and demand do not apply to engineers.

FWIW in Australia experienced engineers earn about 40%-120% more than top-band tradesmen, although if either go self-employed there is obviously a different environment. There again I know of at least two engineering contractors paid in excess of 200 bucks an hour, how many plumbers earn that for sitting in front of a screen 40 hours a week?

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

(OP)

I was at a party the other week and was chatting with an unqualified plumber. He was saying that where he lived in the North East of England there are too many plumbers. That's why he only earned £30k working for his company and he was considering studying for the correct qualifications and going self employed to boost his income.

He was very surprised when he found out what we Engineers earn.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Living in the North-East of England myself, I'd have to interject that registered gas fitter and plumber are two different animals. The real money seems to come when you have a CORGI* registration number with your name on it.

Have I considered joining their ranks? You bet! And I'm a degree-qualified chartered electrical engineer with a fair bit of experience. I'm waiting to see if the current trend in power engineering continues - the job market is healthier than it has been in many years, certainly the best it has been since Thatcher's government broke up the CEGB. Hopefully our numbers will continue to dwindle and our rates will have to go up. Or failing that, the CORGI guys will have a field day when the UK reverts to gas lights!

*CORGI - Council Of Registered Gas Installers

------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Over the years a lot of people have passed themselves off as engineers in the U.K.  To quote an old yesterday I couldn't spell engineer today I are one! A lot of harm was doing certainly during the 1970s when these people became established.  By the gift of the gab or Buggins choice some of these people have managed to attain positions of authority such as team leaders, project managers etc.  these people often pick the new engineers coming in to the industry.  How effectively are these people interviewed?  How many engineers especially in the contract game get a technical interview before they start.  How many CAD operators are sat in front of a CAD machine and asked to do a few modifications to an existing drawing - I suspect very view.

Surrounding ourselves under a mountain of paper with a lot of chancers I believe we are seriously damaging engineering as a profession.  

O.K. so the plumber has been cited as a case.  This guy can't hide - he can either plumb or he can't.

In my opinion its time to grade engineers properly.  Academic qualifications is a start but I'm not convinced the best.  Hands on - see how the guy performs, look at how he reasons a problem out.  Some of the best qualified people are hopeless engineers because they cannot get close to real problems.

Some engineers are under-rated because the system to assess their real ability is not in place. Chances are that the evaluation process would be implemented by some of the poor guys who led the charge themselves years and manaeged to escape before their true engineering abilities got found out.

Bitter and twisted - well yes I suppose I am.  I get disappointed when I see a potentially good or interesting job destroyed or botched by incompetent numpties.   

I am an electrical design engineer by a trade.  I know what it took to get me where I am.  Experience cannot be bought nor does it come in 2 years.  Strangely I can also do pipes and plumbing stuff and that is not hard!

There are some good project engineers out there but what discipline are they?  Do they need a discipline?

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Oceanamber, your other thread (red white and blue) has pursuaded me to give up engineering and become an electrician.

Pretty soon I will be able to buy a football team and hobknob with Elton John, Mohamed El Fayad and that Russian geezer.
This is the license to print money!

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Silly me, I forgot to mention Delia Smith, a Norwich Footie club director.... if you happen to like the school teacher type, and good cooking, you too should become an electrician.

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

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RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Hi oceanamber,

Buggins choice

numpties

Methinks you need to include a glossary for the broader readership!

------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Looks as though JMW has seen the light and has decided to throw in the towel and become an electrician.  Realise that as a cunning contractor I place a lot of the ads for plumbers and electricians at high rates.  Guys are moving out of engineering to become tradesmen there by reducing the number of engineers in the pool. This reduction in manpower is directly proportional to the rate I can charge for my services.  There is a saying about old and devious usually wins youthful enthusiam.

Take heart JMW because unless you are earth bonding Eltons gold taps a lot of electrician stuff such as putting up tray/rack or pulling cables on cold wet days is a bit miserable.

Any one know where I can buy cheap petrol for the Jag!

cheers  

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Commissioning (actually, riding shotgun on the commissioning engineer) an analyser in Siberia in the winter is no great shakes either.

I never understood why i always ended up in these places (Alberta, Siberia) in the dead of winter, or Burkina Fursau in the height of summer (don't even ask).

The oil fields in Alberta have a particular attraction in that they are miles from civilisation. Snow, unless you are an Inuit with an extensive vocabulary devoted to it, is snow where ever you are; it and minus 30degC temperatures are great equalisers.

Siberian refineries often have some good benefits, they may brew their own beer and have their own bakery and patiserie on site. In Alberta, there was a motel where we stayed and the only TV was in the restaurant and permanently tuned to ice hockey fights and we eat there or in the gas station.

I'm pretty sure Elton lives in better conditions and has a plentiful supply of booze.

You know, while one can take great pride in seeing a system you have designed from scratch work better than anyone expected, seeing one system save millions of dollars for the client each year while you worry about paying the mortgage or the wifes next trip to the shops, makes you wonder why engineers are treated so badly and why they put up with it.



JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

"You know, while one can take great pride in seeing a system you have designed from scratch work better than anyone expected, seeing one system save millions of dollars for the client each year while you worry about paying the mortgage or the wifes next trip to the shops, makes you wonder why engineers are treated so badly and why they put up with it."

Because you/we know that when we create a multimillion dollar system that works as it should, it is 'ours' in a sense that few other professions can achieve.

That's why.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Because you/we know that when we create a multimillion dollar system that works as it should, it is 'ours' in a sense that few other professions can achieve

Ever noticed that when something works brilliantly well it it 'ours', yet if it is a disaster it is 'yours'? Or is that just where I work??


------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Yeah, that's a real great incentive scheme; if it works, only you know that it's yours. The boss is busy claiming it's "his". You can bet that come review time, all those successes don't add up to a hill of beans. One mistake and your out.
As ScottyUk says, when it all goes wrong is about the only time anyone avows your ownership of the idea... and neglects all those reports you submitted saying "don't do it this way!"

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

If any of the readers from outside the UK need more evidence of my nation's misuse of the terms 'engineer' and 'technician', I spotted the following on the back of the cab of one of the support trucks that accompany the huge mobile cranes which frequent our site:

'Counterweight Relocation Technician'.

I swear I'm not making this up. I wish I could post a photograph. When I was a kid, he was a truck driver. The guy who drives the crane is probably a 'senior object relocation engineer' or some such. At least I'm bitter enough to laugh - a recent graduate would probably be crying into his beer.



------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

(OP)
Whenever someone asks my wife what I do she says ‘he’s an engineer but not the kind that fixes motor cars with a spanner’.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

What do you use? a hammer?

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

On the BAE System web sit (http://www.bae-systems.com/engineering/index.htm) the first sentence to describe the peoples common perception of what an engineering is “A common perception of engineering is that of servicing a car or repairing a television.”.  You guys were not kidding.  Here in the USA, I deplore it when I tell somebody that I am a mechanical engineer and they ask me if I drive a train or fix cars.

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

(OP)
jmw,

No I use a mechanic.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

You got me!

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

You got me!
......except they are not called mechanics anymore (see earlier in this post), they are auto-technicians. At least they didn't call them engineers.

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

You do realise that that is a peculiarly British issue?

Move to the colonies! (now I sound like the advertising blimp in Bladerunner). Engineering is well respected and reasonably well paid (in context) in EVERY country I have been to (apart from Nepal).

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Re "Whenever someone asks my wife what I do she says ‘he’s an engineer but not the kind that fixes motor cars with a spanner’. "

I get the same from my wife too - either that or "I'm not sure what he does, but he sits in front of a computer"

Regarding salaries, I think it depends on the sector you work in too.  I keep looking in the IMechE magazine and see adverts of Senior Engineer in London offering 26K - I didn't think you could live in London for that.  I work in safety (as a fire engineer - though not driving fire engines!) and the pay is reasonable enough, though I am a contractor rather than staff.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

(OP)
In London you really can earn £60k as a plumber and £25k as an engineer! You need £60k for a reasonable standard of living in London.

I suppose £26k may be OK if your wife also earns £33k?


RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Reading the stories in the press it seems that 'potentially' you can earn high salaries as a plumber http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/02/24/ngens24.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/02/24/ixnewstop.html Personally I always avoid job advertisements that say 'You can earn up to ....' as they tend to mean that you can earn that amount if you give up life in any real meaning of the word.
At the bottom of the article it says that the average salary is £30k, which is still higher than the London average of £23k for a mechanical engineer, but is probably a more realistic figure than £60k. http://www.workthing.com/servlet/SalarySurveyOutput?job_role=ENGINEERING&sub_role=MECHANICAL+ENGINEER&sector=Any&location=LONDON

The moral of the story is:
Don't go rushing out to learn how to fix a dripping tap, Don't hire a plumber from London.

corus

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

Wife doesn't earn at all.  But fortunately I don't have to live in London - but up north where it is (slightly) cheaper.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

JamesCG,
are you being funny or modest? You guys in the North can afford a £60,000 a year plumber.

The term "slightly" seems a gross understatement.

Property prices are one of the major factors that influence the disposable income of families.

This means that not only is your beer cheaper (and often better) you can live in a beter house and have more money to spend.

If you live in Hampstead Heath (London, but not too close to the centre) a 2 bedroom flat can cost £335,000 (around $600,000, ar a 200 acre ranch in Montana or is it bigger than that?) and out by the London Orbital motorway, £205,000 ($380,000) while in Manchester a 3 bedroom house is £161,000 ..... I hate to think what you can biuy a Scottish castle for, but it isn't that much more expensive.

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

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RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

We are all in control of our destinies. (Sounds like key luke off that programme Kung Fu with John Calladine)

I believe that its never too late to change. If you want to be a plumber, as an engineer, you would be able to make the change with reasonable ease.

Good quality plumbers are like rocking horse poo. So if you are an engineer and not happy with it, just go for it.

Like somebody said, Its not rocket science.

I would do it if I didn't have a dodgy back.

Its hard work and dirty, but I would think that its less stressfull than being sat behind a desk for 8-10 hours, getting home at 7, having tea, starting again till 11pm. and the cycle goes on.

Must dash,  going to enrole on a plumbing course.

Friar Tuck of Sherwood

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

A 3 bed house in Manchester may only be £160k, but is that in a part of Manchester where I would like my kids to grow up? (I did live in Salford and Manchester for 10 years, up until a year ago, before people start ranting about that last statement)

I must be doing something wrong (maybe living 60 miles away from work to enable my wife and kids to live in a nice area by the sea), but I don't have enough disposable income to pay a £60k / year plumber.

Anyway, if a plumber can earn that much money by doing a good job then good for him.

RE: Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k.

At £205,000 you could ask the same about 2 bedroom flat somewhere near the London orbital motorway.

There are parts of the south you wouldn't want to bring up kids, just as there are anywhere.

So the best thing is just to treat these prices as equivalent, for what that's worth.

These were price guides from an internet national house sales site.

They are a price guide.

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

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