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Supermarket express check out lanes

Supermarket express check out lanes

Supermarket express check out lanes

(OP)
The sign over the express check out lane most often reads "10 items or less."

To be correct it should read "10 items or fewer."

Fewer is used when the items are quantifiable.

Less is used for items that are not easily quantified, or are conceptual.

Can signs read?

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

I would worry less about the grammar in this sign than in peoples ability to count to 10. I always seem to find someone with 20 or 30 items in these queues.

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

Your right! I have been on lines where people take the meaning as "10 items more or less".

And is a six pack 1 item or 6 items? What if canned corn is three for the price of one? One item or three?

Should we limit the number of scans performed by the cashier to ten? We can do this with software! Any remaining items automatically get dumped down a chute for re-stocking.

Just a thought.

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

Can we also have a regulation about poeople paying for their groceries when the cashier has finished and not taking a further 5 minutes to re-arrange their meagre shopping in their bags?

Checkout staff are slow enough as it is.... where scanners meant to speed things up? When i was at college i worked in a supermarket with the old style cash registers and in the event of a power cut you had to hand crank them. I remeber being a whole lot faster handcranking than todays scanner system checkout operators.

John Henry .... is it he i am thinking of? I wonder why?

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

That's because people were more consider and thoughtful and planned ahead way back then.

TTFN

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

Hey MintJulep

"10 items or fewer."?

I can't quite equate to yer explanation.  could you differentiate that for me or maybe it needs to be integrated.  I heard this whooshing sound as it flew over my head.

More on 10 items or not-so-many-please:
A few weeks ago my wife and I were shopping at Walmart.  As we approached the checkout region (this being a superplex center or whatever they call it), we could see that most of the lines were quite bulky with people and goods so my wifey does a u-turn and heads for a 10 items or... stand even tho we be sporting a gaggle (definitely was not a flock)of goods in our shopping cart.  I objected but she persisted saying nobody else was in that line anyhow. The checker was not nonplussed (boy is that awkward.  How come there ain't no word like plussed?) and kept on checking.  Anyway I began feeling very guilty and being the slob that I am, walked off in  a huff to go warm up the car being winter and all and not wanting to be a part of this nefarious scandal.

And now as Paul Harvey would say, "the rest of the story."

My wifey works for that very Walmart and sometimes fills-in as a checker and said it is perfectly acceptable practice when the checker is standing there doing nothing.  Oh well, go figure!  Sometimes signs don't mean what they say correct grammar or no.  And can you believe it - we did not even have an argument over this but then we've been married a looong time.(?)  And now you know the rest of the story.

Jesus is THE life,
Leonard

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

(OP)
Metman,

Use "fewer" when it is possible to actually count the difference.

"Fewer people wear their hair in the Mohawk style today then in the late 70's."

Use less when you can't count, or when comparing an abstract concept.

"The Mohawk is a less popular hair style now then it was in the late 70's."

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

"Use less when you can't count"

Then, logically, "10 items or less" is PERFECTLY acceptable, cuz it's obvious that these people CAN'T count!

TTFN

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

I'm not sure where you guys are getting your rules of grammar from, but according to Fowler's "Modern English Usage", which I recommend, it appears that 10 items or fewer is correct, but the reason is simply that less is applied only to things that are measured by amount and not by size, quality, or number. So we say less tonnage, but fewer ships; less manpower but fewer men  etc. This refers to modern practice, but the usage of the word was not always quite so restricted. There is a whole page of discussion on the subject in Fowler.

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

"less is applied only to things that are measured by amount and not by size, quality, or number"

Your definition would seem to clearly put "10 items or less" in the wrong; otherwise it would only be correct if it were something like "10 pounds of stuff or less."

TTFN

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

(OP)
English,

I see very little difference between my original post and your paraphrasing of Fowler's.

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

IRstuff: Are you saying that I should have more properly written "10 items or less is incorrect" rather than "10 items or fewer is correct" ?  Perhaps so, but I believe that the page of Fowler to which I refer would support both of these assertions.

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

Grammatically, it would appear that it should be "10 items or fewer."  

But, to insist on that usage seems to be overly pedantic, since everyone who reads it understands the general gist of the phrase.

The separation of "fewer" vs. "less" seems to me to be an anacronism, mimicking the development of the wave/particle duality of matter.  Since matter is both, then whether you use "fewer" or "less" is irrelevant.

TTFN

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

IRstuff: Exactly where precision ends and pedantry begins is of course a matter of opinion. There is a program on NPR, which I think is on Saturdays, where points of grammar - many of them far more nit-picky than this - are endlessly discussed. But it is true that Fowler is not overly popular in US literary circles, and to make matters worse, I am still using the venerable old second edition, revised by Sir Ernest Gowers. In his day, Fowler was way ahead of the curve on such things as the use of split infinitives etc, but I keep meaning to get Folletts "Modern American Usage", which may go some way to curing my pedantic tendencies.

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

It's irellevant more or less.  However it cannot be irrelevant more or fewer or can it?

Jesus is THE life,
Leonard

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

Who knows?  Perhaps irrelevance is strictly a wave phenomenon?

TTFN

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

...or a particularly wavey particle.
(participle?)

=====================================
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RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

If anyone is still interested, I have just discovered a site that covers this topic in one of their FAQ's.
http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutgrammar/lessfewer?view=uk

It is interesting to note that even this  site contains a spelling mistake :
http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutgrammar/numberofpeople?view=uk

"A number of people ar (sic) waiting for the bus".

I think this should be a lesson in humility to all of us.

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

A bit old, this thread, but what the heck...

I used to wonder about the sign in the supermarket I used to use. It read:

"10 items or less and hand baskets"

I could never work out if they meant that you could take as much through as you liked in a hand basket, or that you could only use hand baskets and if you wheeled up a trolley with 9 goods in it they'd turn you away.

It used to make my blood boil seeing people carry more than the prescribed number of items through the (laughably called) "express" checkouts without anyone querying them.
Then once in a busy supermarket a supervisor told me to use the express checkout, which was empty, with my trolley loaded with (a later count verified) 49 items.
The checkout girl refused to let me through until I pointed out the EXACT supervisor who had instructed me on where to go.
Then I had to listen to a 5 minute rant about how unfair it all was.

I hate shopping...

"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go past." Douglas Adams

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

How about an express lane for those inconsiderate people who drag their screaming rug-rats thru the store without any effort to quiet them or discipline the brats.

Keep the wheels on the ground
Bob

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

The first stop should be the Hardware aisle.
A little duct tape would cure that problem.

I'm in Texas...we fix everything with Duct tape.

How about: 10 items or less, hand baskets or children.

Why is aisle pronounced "I'll"?

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

so people don't think you're mispronouncing "azul."  I can't figure out why "isle" isn't pronounced izzle.  It sounds much better that way, fo shizzle.

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

Because it would sound sick to pronounce it 'ill'.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

Personally I think that the 10 items or fewer/less lines are getting ridiculous in a different way.  When I shop at the local mega store there are approximately 2 dozen or so registars.  About 15 are open and about 10 are the express lanes.  So for everyone that actually makes a list and needs more then 10 items the 5 remaining lines are filled with handbaskets, rugrats, slow people, and people whose credit card always seems to fail after making a 210 item purchase.  The other 10 lanes remian nearly empty and the "self checkout" lanes are all flashing because the "weight of the item did not match the worthless computer scale".  Okay enough ranting I guess.

I think that to rid the consumer of such questionable vocabulary that "NO MORE THEN 10 ITEMS" could be the new sign...

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

Then on course there are the people (and it does seem primarily to be women, sorry if I cause offence here) who get all the items scanned and bagged and only then start to consider the possibility that the shop might actually demand some form of payment...and so have a good old rummage for the money or cards that they think that they, probably, have brought with them, but can't be sure where they put them...and do they have the correct change..."Ooh I wonder if I've a coupon...is this still valid? No? What about this one? Or these ten?"...then play the Let's-see-if-I-can-pay-for-this-with-the-lowest-denomination-coins-I-have-game...then take a phone call on their mobile and ignore the check-out operator (and how rude is that?)... then read the receipt from top to bottom to check all 350 items they've bought before anyone else can scan their goods through...

I really hate shopping.

"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go past." Douglas Adams

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

just think.....only 323 days until christmas
 (or Shopping-mas as we call it)

Keep the wheels on the ground
Bob

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

RobWard,
I don't know if a star is warranted...but I agree 1000%.

Can you have 1000% of something?
Another thread I guess.

Rerig

After thought...have women ever considered where men learn what the word NO means.
You know...when they say "No means No!"
Men are asked "Do you want to go shopping?"    "NO!"
"oh, come on..go shopping with me."    "NO"
"Well, just drive me there"     "NO"
"If you loved me you would go with me"   "Please, NO"
"If you don't go, you'll regret it"    "Damn...OK"
So, to men, No doesn't mean No...it means, whine until you give in.  (I had to go shopping last night...sorry)

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

You know, I just had a thought. We’re all looking at this the wrong way.

We are worrying about what “6 items or less” really mean. That’s wrong. It isn’t what the sign says, it is what it is that is important.

It is a control. We are increasingly victims of Pavlovian style conditioning to conform. We are being managed and manipulated.

Take traffic lights. When the traffic is heavy they help keep it moving. OK, but how many of you have sat at a red light at 4 in the morning waiting for it to change when there is absolutely no other traffic about.
Maybe there is a camera on the junction or a cop hiding round the corner. You go through that red light and what will happen? You’ll be charged with dangerous driving. Why? Because driving through a red light is, axiomatically, dangerous driving.

The “6 items or less” rule is a manifestation of this control over our every moment.
OK, try this: you have 10 items. All the checkouts are manned. You are the only shopper (or the only one with a basket). Go to the 6 items or less lane. You know what will happen, don’t you?

Shopping is an exact science today and every bit of that science is bought and paid for by the chain stores, the advertising and marketing agencies, the supermarkets. Each day their ability to predict and control our behaviour intensifies. They start on us as children. They are working on our children now.

They know the exact shade of red on the baked bean tins that sells the maximum number of beans. They know the value of having the fresh veg section at the entrance instead of near the end of the shopping trail (see how many trolleys in the fresh veg are full i.e. where the shopper has had to come back for the fresh veg).
These are the guys who put candy (sweets) at the checkouts.
They’re the ones who know the exact degree to which children influence shopping decisions
Why advertise cars in children’s TV? It is because they know the buying (pester/persistence) power of children. Children who can’t drive and have no money can control what cars are bought. Fact.

So now think again about those “awkward” customers. Who are they? Why do they do these things? To make us mad?
Well I tell you, I’m beginning to think they are the last rebels, the only ones holding out for the individual over the corporation.

Maybe it is now time to take a hand in this war.
What is the maximum number of items you can successfully take through a 6 or less till? Try it. Be prepared to abandon your shopping on the belt… don’t let the option be to go and queue at another till, make it a “take me or lose the sale” deal.

One thing, it will either make your shopping experience a little more fun or it will get you excused by the wife.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

Well, since noone else has related this story which I came by last week, I shall pass it on for your amusement and edification:

A shopper got into the "6 items or less" line during a very busy part of the day when all lines, including the express line were stacked with customers.  (Ok, they are really only "potential" customers at this point since they have not yet paid.  I point this out because there seem to be some RE-AA-LL-Y picky people in this forum.)  

Anyway, she gets up to the checker with her cart full of goodies and the checker sweetly says, "So.  Which 6 items did you want to purchase?"  Now THAT is diplomacy!

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

jmw,
Very cute story -- shades of 1984 etc -- BUT

"Sometimes signs don't mean what they say correct grammar or no."

Above extracted from first post of March 8, '04.  Can you believe we have been doing this for almost a year!?  Maybe we should get a life.

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

JMW, you got it in one.  Something didn't feel right with the arguments advanced before you, but I couldn't pin it down.  You just did - have a star!

It's the same with the "leave your bags at the counter" thing.  I won't - when I ask if they will take responsibility for its contents while it is in their custody, they will say "No".  So why should I take responsibility for their goods if they won't accept it for mine?

PS in South Africa I (and most other sensible people) would ignore red lights at night - wouldn't want to be hi-jacked.  And the only legal penalty was a fine.  Here in Oz they are uncivil enough to count how often you do it and take your licence away.

Bung
Life is non-linear...

RE: Supermarket express check out lanes

Oh no!
Don't get me started on traffic lights!
Has anyone else noticed how frequently on quiet roads, at night, they turn red as you approach; you wait for ages until a car approaches from the other direction, THEN they change again, to stop the other car and let you go?
It's spooky, I tell you.

Rant over..Zen-like calm descending...

"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go past." Douglas Adams

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