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Since vs. Because
2

Since vs. Because

Since vs. Because

(OP)
I recently had a memo reviewed by a colleague and when he returned it, he made an off-handed comment on my use of “since,” claiming that I should be using “because” instead.  His contention was that “since” should only be used with respect to time, as in “I haven’t eaten since breakfast,” not in place of “because,” as in “since it was hot outside I wore shorts.”  I have never heard of such a rule.  Since I use that type of sentence structure a lot, and since I don’t want to sound like an idiot, I’d like to straighten this whole matter out.

When I looked up “since” (conjunction) on webster.com, the third definition was:

3 : in view of the fact that : BECAUSE <since it was raining she took an umbrella>

which seems to vindicate me, but I’m aware that occasionally a word is misused so often that the misuse eventually becomes accepted (an example of this is using data as both singular and plural, which I hate).  Any opinions?

Haf

RE: Since vs. Because

It appears your colleague uses the word only as an adverb.

RE: Since vs. Because

Yup, gotta watch where them only's go. Should go right before what you're trying to only. (Wow -  I made "only" a verb).

I would have to say Webster is a pretty good source.  If it were colloquial or slang, Daniel would say so.  Your use of "since" sounds fine to me.



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RE: Since vs. Because

English is a live language. It is evolving, and any word usage that is common and long standing becomes correct.

A good example is the word "sophisticated" which is generally used to mean complex or elaborate, but the actual Oxford Dictionary meaning is "facade or false front" and my Macquarie lists it as "worldly wise".

I believe it evolved from the description of heavily made up and elaborately dressed people in the 18th century. No one will be criticised for saying that F1 cars have a sophisticated engine

The most famous expert on the use of the language, William Shakespeare, is credited with inventing 20,000 new words.

Bottom line, you are correct, and your friend should check his facts before being so rude as to correct you. Maybe your friend should look up the meaning of pompous.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Since vs. Because

Whew, I have been vindicated.  I picked up my usage of since since my sister uses it frequently and she is a journalism major.  I use it liberally and now I won't hesitate but perhaps will sprinke in a few because's here and there just for the sake of variety.

Jesus is THE life,
Leonard

RE: Since vs. Because

Hello virtual friends,

Stumbled across these forums a few days a go and found them quite entertaining. Note: all ramblings, spelling errors and poorly constructed sentences can be blamed upon either drunkenness, too many sport related concussions, stress induced madness after raising two sons who refuse to leave home, spatial distortions and other galactic anomalies.

To the point at last:

'since' & 'because' - I tend to err in favour of Haf's friend/colleague.

The rule of thumb I have followed for these two words is that 'since' has some relationship to time and 'because' is used as part of an argument.

For example:

Since I like cornflakes I prefer them. "Since' implies that at some stage I began to like cornflakes.

I like cornflakes because I prefer them. "Because" links what I like and 'why' I like what I like.

If I changed the first example and said:

Because I like cornflakes I prefer them.

Neither is write or wrong on its own but if it was evaluated in the context of a discussion either maybe right or wrong depending on what the writer means to imply.

Simply translated 'since' implies "when" (even though when is extremely vague)and 'because' implies "why".


Now where's that drink?

Kerry

RE: Since vs. Because

write or wrong?  OK, we'll attribute it to kid-induced stress.  Welcome to the forum.

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RE: Since vs. Because

Actually, I thought "write or wrong" was a very clever play on words - it should be adopted as the new official name for this entire forum!

I'm giving Kiwikid a star - welcome to the forum!

RE: Since vs. Because

Kiwikid, welcome.

Don't let Dave (management) hear that you "stumbled across these forums", i think he is convinced that it is marketing that is building the membership! (just kidding, Dave!)

RE: Since vs. Because

"Neither is write or wrong on its own...".

No, but when it follows "neither", "write or wrong" is wrong . It should be "write nor wrong", write?  Err...right?

RE: Since vs. Because

Good question.  

Neither example is right or wrong.
Neither example is right nor wrong.

It's not the typical neither/nor situation.
I think neither of the above is wrong. (are wrong?)

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Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Since vs. Because

Either/or
Neither/nor

Glad to see you guys picked up the deliberate mistakes (LOL)

RE: Since vs. Because

Typical neither/nor construction:
A - The example is neither right nor wrong.

That typical construction is a little different than:
B - Neither example is right (n)or wrong.

The most defensible way of saying it might be:
C - Neither example is right and neither example is wrong.

But if I had to choose among or/nor in B, I personally would choose or.  Nor comes between two choices, the first of which has already been negated.  In example B, "right" has not been negated, example has.

Let's say we have a lot of boxes. Each box contains a hidden ball.   Possible colors are red, black, green, yellow, orange etc.  My assignment is to open boxes until I find one with a red or black ball.  I open all the boxes and find nothing. How do I report my results?

None of the boxes contains red or black balls.

Now let's say there are only two boxes.

Neither of the boxes contains red or black balls.

Incorrect?

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RE: Since vs. Because

The statement sounds/appears to be incomplete.

Neither of the boxes contains red or black balls nor where any balls found in the other boxes.

My understanding is that a statement needs 2 parts in order to use 'nor' correctly.


This seems to me to be correct
        "Neither example is right or wrong."

while this doesn't;
         "Neither example is right nor wrong"

RE: Since vs. Because

electricpete wrote:
"Now let's say there are only two boxes.
Neither of the boxes contains red or black balls."

kiwikid wrote:
"The statement sounds/appears to be incomplete.
Neither of the boxes contains red or black balls nor where any balls found in the other boxes."

Incomplete? What other boxes. I said there are only two boxes.  Jeez.  

I am glad to see you (now) agree on the use of "or" vs "nor"

Either/or Neither/nor is a rule valid within some contexts, but not this one.

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RE: Since vs. Because

Electricpete,

My fault for not being clear enough

I would go with "None of the boxes contains red or black balls." regardless of how many boxes there were but I regard "Neither of the boxes contains red or black balls." as a poor construct for 'neither' rather than 'nor'.

On the other hand one could say; "Neither box contains red or black balls." I still don't like it 100% but it sounds better to my ear.

Another version; "Neither red nor black balls where found in either box." I see this as more correct when 'nor' is used.

Yet another version; "Neither box contained a ball of any colour." Eliminates both 'nor' and 'or'.

My gut feeling is that when 'or' is more correct than 'nor' and no second part to the arguement is present then 'neither' is the least appropriate choice over 'none'.

Both 'neither' and 'nor' can be used individually but 'neither' coupled with 'or' just doesn't have that 'ring' to it.

Two things seem to influence peoples choice on how these words are used; the way one is taught and the genre in which it is being used.

RE: Since vs. Because

Another choice "Neither box contains either color?"

TTFN

RE: Since vs. Because

Pat,
interesting comment on Shakespeare.
I would guess that  if i introduced 20,000 new words (with my spelling i can't be far off) that i would not be referred to as "the most famous expert on the language" rather as the most famous perverter of the language. Such is fame.

Incidentally,
how are we all pronouncing either and neither?
"e" sound as in each or "i" as in eye? The "ei" combination is one that usually results in the "i" sound in German but the "e" sound in English, though in English i am used to hearing both forms.

RE: Since vs. Because

In case you read only the grammar but not the substance, the purpose of the box/ball example was to establish a parallel example for evaluating the use of or/nor in
"Neither example is right (n)or wrong."

So the suggestions for alternate ways to word
"Neither of the boxes contains red or black balls."
are appreciated, but would unfortunately been totally irrelevant to the point I was making.

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RE: Since vs. Because

I just have to point out that since I mentioned the questionable use of "or" in my post above, this thread has wandered completely off topic. (Or is it *because* I mentioned it... ?)    

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