Unlicensed Activity
Unlicensed Activity
(OP)
I would appreciate comment on the following:
In most areas of the US, National Engineer's Week is ended with a banquet celebrating local engineering accomplishments and providing selected awards for local engineers. Often there is a keynote banquet speaker, sometimes an engineer, sometimes not, but usually offering a topic of engineering involvement, interest, or connection to the community at large.
This year, a group has selected an individual as its keynote speaker on a topic of engineering interest. This individual runs a company that offers engineering services in three states. These are "classical" engineering discipline services that require licensing. A couple of problems....the firm is not licensed to provide engineering services and there are apparently no licensed professional engineers on staff.
In your opinion, does this compromise the integrity of the profession?
In most areas of the US, National Engineer's Week is ended with a banquet celebrating local engineering accomplishments and providing selected awards for local engineers. Often there is a keynote banquet speaker, sometimes an engineer, sometimes not, but usually offering a topic of engineering involvement, interest, or connection to the community at large.
This year, a group has selected an individual as its keynote speaker on a topic of engineering interest. This individual runs a company that offers engineering services in three states. These are "classical" engineering discipline services that require licensing. A couple of problems....the firm is not licensed to provide engineering services and there are apparently no licensed professional engineers on staff.
In your opinion, does this compromise the integrity of the profession?
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RE: Unlicensed Activity
aspearin1
RE: Unlicensed Activity
You as a professional engineer and a citizen have an obligation to report them to the appropriate authorities.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Unlicensed Activity
California's PE industrial exemption extends to subcontractors and service providers.
TTFN
RE: Unlicensed Activity
For instance, if a developer retained them to design a high rise, wouldn't he want to see some credentials?
It seems to me if they were doing projects of any consequence, the word would get around and the state licensing boards would take the appropriate action.
RE: Unlicensed Activity
It’s the same in an emergency situation. Everyone assumes someone else phones 911 as a result the emergency response is delayed.
If you know of illegal activity and fail to report it you can be as guilty as the person doing the illegal activity.
It can cost you your license. If you have reasonable grounds to believe that they are doing something illegal then report them. If your fears are groundless then no harm done.
Most associations will accept and investigate anonymous tips it that makes you more comfortable.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Unlicensed Activity
'Tis quite the slippery slope sir!
RE: Unlicensed Activity
I would have to know for sure there is no licensed engineers signing off on drawings before saying too much. The media or lower key publicity can hurt anyone or any company even if they are found "innocent". Perhaps you know more than you have said, and reporting it would definately be in order.
RE: Unlicensed Activity
I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "Classic" engineering - perhaps you could expand on that.
RE: Unlicensed Activity
Also, buzzp is right in saying before any reporting is done, find out all the facts as it could be harmful to the entreprenuer who is running a legitimate and maybe quite a successful business.
RE: Unlicensed Activity
How naive! Unfounded accusations reported to a government body can be VERY harmful!!! In the US, the belief is "innocent until proven guilty", however the reality of the situation is often "prove to me that you aren't guilty". Therefore, the burden of proof is placed squarely on the shoulders of the accused.
Releasing the government hounds onto a proven business seems inappropriate! Why don't we just start pulling over random motorists to validate that they have a valid drivers licence and up-to-date insurance? If the motorist has all of the paperwork, then they have nothing to fear.
RE: Unlicensed Activity
If the firm does have licensed people in place the check will stop there. If there are no licensed people in place then the firm will be asked if their practice included activities that should be licensed.
If you have a reasonable belief that illegal activity is taking place then you have an obligation to act, both as a professional and as a concerned citizen.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Unlicensed Activity
aspearin1
RE: Unlicensed Activity
The easy way is call up someone in the group and ask them? You may both learn something. Put yourself in their place. If they are honset and above board they would rather have an open question from you than people beating around the bush and in all probability damaging their reputation.
RE: Unlicensed Activity
I agree with your post except for one thing. A lot of customers do not know about the laws requiring licensed engineering for services let alone recognize the nuances of these laws.
This is true in Canada where there are no exceptions to this rule. Doing engineering requires licenses. Calling oneself an engineer requires a license.
I would think that in the US the confusion would be greater since not all engineering requires licenses, the term engineering and title engineer can be used by anyone and the situation is even more complex.
Look at some of the other threads on licensing, you will quickly see that here among engineering and technical people that there is not complete agreement on what the licensing laws are. (And even less on what they should be but that’s another thread.)
The first canon of conduct for the Manitoba Association is
1. Each practitioner shall obey the laws of the land.
The fourth is
4. Each practitioner shall uphold and enhance the honour, integrity and dignity of the engineering and geoscientific professions.
A subsidiary clause to this canon is
present appropriate information to the Registrar of the Association if a professional colleague, or any other person or entity, is believed to be in violation of the Act, the By-laws or this Code of Ethics;
For the full text see:
http://www.apegm.mb.ca/keydocs/ethics/ethics.html#c1
Taken together there is a positive obligation to inform the association. Since most of these codes of ethics are very similar, I would think that the same provisions apply in your jurisdiction.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Unlicensed Activity
As far as tips and rumors are concerned, "reasonable belief" can be just that! You can hear plenty of these if you attend the local sewing bee!
If my scenario about a firm with no licensed people is correct, and maybe they have built up a reputation and getting the lion's share of the work in their area, it could be sour grapes with other firms.
You know, if the building permit for your neighbor's deck isn't visible from behind your window blinds, don't just assume he hasn't got one. As BJC suggests, go and ask before any reporting gets done.
RE: Unlicensed Activity
The only caveat to this is that the company can't hold itself out as an engineering or surveying company (e.g., it can be called "New Mexico Land and Cattle Co.", not "New Mexico Surveying and Engineering Co."). If the firm being discussed in this Sewing Bee is calle "Phil's Engineering" then most jurisdictions require a PE on staff.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
RE: Unlicensed Activity
What you just described is "plan stamping" - where a company designs something that falls under the engineering practice act and then hires someone else to review and stamp the drawings.
In most states in the US, this is explicitly illegal.
The engineer of record must either perform the design directly, or directly supervise others who are working for, or under his/her direction.
Coming in after a design is complete, and reviewing it is not allowed unless the engineer re-calculates everything.
RE: Unlicensed Activity
There are a load of good and competent designers out there and a load of Licensed Engineers who thrive (financially) on reviewing and certifying work.
Otherwise, I totally agree with everyone, if it's against the law to use the term "Engineer" without a license, don't do it and don't misrepresent in any manner.
I hope this thread doesn't turn into another one about the legalities of doing engineering work without a license because there is a vast difference between one being engaged in engineering design work and masquarading as something one is not.
RE: Unlicensed Activity
For JAE...what I meant by "classical" engineering disciplines is the ones that require licensing in essentially every state...civil, structural, mechanical, and electrical.
For melone....I can assure you my premise is well-founded. I agree that someone shouldn't go off half-cocked and just complain, as that could be damaging to reputations and businesses if undeserved.
For Rick...your comments are exactly on point. There is no room for such practices and I wish the individual states and their laws were as clear as those in Canada...unfortunately they're not and there is lots of wiggle room.
After learning of this firm through a friend who thought it strange that a "salesman" we had both known in previous employment had founded a firm of such prominence as to be asked to speak at a significant gathering, I got curious. The firm is not licensed to do business in two states in which it has addresses, one of which is its corporate headquarters. Both of these states require that firms be licensed as well as the engineers they employ. The remaining state does not have online capability to check the status,so I didn't do that. Knowing that the online info is not always up to date, I called the state board in one of the states to verify the information. The firm is not licensed.
I called one of the phone numbers listed on their website. It routed me to a cell phone, answered by the principal. I asked if they provided engineering services and he said "yes, we provide civil, structural, and electrical engineering services".
At the least, firms should follow the rules so that we all are practicing under the same premise. For firms to practice without such compliance allows them a distinct economic advantage to those firms that are in compliance. Licensing is not cheap. My firm spends many thousands of dollars each year to comply with the laws of the states in which we practice. We're no different than other legitimate firms....we have to do it. Further, as engineers we carry professional liability insurance with relatively high premiums and deductibles...a cost of doing business. Those costs are not borne by those who don't comply.
There was a time in our profession when fees were not the deciding factor of a client's selection. In fact, at one time it was unethical to "bid" our services. The Supreme Court changed that by striking the bid prohibition in our Canons of Ethics. Qualification based selection is becoming less prominent than ever....price based selection is gaining each year. Unlicensed activity and fringe-services engineering have promoted this and in my not so humble opinion has degraded and demeaned our profession.
I will continue a bit of checking on the firm. If my suspicions are correct and appropriately founded, I will file a complaint with the appropriate engineering licensing board.
RE: Unlicensed Activity
I think if you feel they are operating illegally then yes you should report them. However, since they are local to you, it says your firm is a little upset with the success of the other company. This is human nature. Not trying to cause problems but if this firm were in another part of the country you would not have taken the steps you have already. It would be nice if concerns were addressed no matter what part of the country your in if red flags go up but this is generally not the case. Good luck!
RE: Unlicensed Activity
http://www.nspe.org/unlicensedpracguidelines.pdf
RE: Unlicensed Activity
RE: Unlicensed Activity
A few things to consider
1. Does the name of the firm have the term Engineering in cluded
2. The CEO of a firm offering engineering services doe not necessarily have to be an Engineer.
3. The firm may be legitimately getting professional engineers to be responsible for work and hence they can be legit in that respect
4. In today's business world there are numerous brokers. these days one cannot get professional liability insuranec without talking to a Broker.
While I agree that at face value the concept is wrong I am not too sure that they can be disciplined unless they are found to be in contravention to the law. This aspect varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction
Do you knoe that the trend today is to have designs done offshore and have a Professional Engineer sit with his stamp and stamp drawings as he were on an assembly line. This is the pattern of the moguls. Does any association really care. No. These are all heavies.
Only my opinions. I agree more outcry is required
RE: Unlicensed Activity
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RE: Unlicensed Activity
The answer is to examine the firm minutely like you would examine a supplier that is not QS or ISO qualified. In effect, you are providing the qualification in terms of comprehensive examination. QS and ISO qualification precludes close examination.