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What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
Hi

The maker of the valves suggests using a bronze based seat, what are the best bronze based material to use?
What about copper based materials for valve seats?

Thanks.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

Bronze is a copper-based alloy.  Beryllium bronze is used for high performance engines that typically employ Ti valves.  Go to the Copper Development Association site for more information on specific alloys, properties, etc.:

http://www.copper.org

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
Thanks will check it out.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
I have found a little more, however copper.org does not seem to have the info I am looking at, I will look further...

What I am looking for is; do they use a special grade of nickel/bronze for valve seats?

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

The make of the valve either delwest or manley probably says for you to use a copper/bronze based seat.  That is just because the matierial is softer and won't wear the titanium as fast.  I know many people who have used a "soft" standard seat and have had much sucess with it.  Instead of the valve wearing out the seat the seat will wear out the valve. Been running ti valves on soft stock seat for over a year now on my bmw engine..

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
Thanks!!

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

ZoRG,

As I mentioned in my email, beryllium-copper alloys are used for high performance engines.  One such example was the FO110J 3.0L V10 produced by Ilmor/Mercedes for the 2000 F1 World Championship.  Some aspects of this engine, including confirmation that beryllium-copper was used for the valve seat and valve guides, were described in SAE Technical Paper 2002-01-3359.  You may want to perform a keyword search for SAE Technical Papers to see if you can find more information on specific alloys, valve seat suppliers, etc.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
I know about beryllium copper, but its simply to expensive for my project, I have found another metal that could be suitable, called Trojan, has better heat conduction than beryllium copper, so overall seems to be a better and cheaper alternative.

Also I can get ready made Ampco 45(Bronze/Aluminium) seats, are they suitable for titanium?

Here is the info for Trojan:
http://www.columbiametals.co.uk/trojanproperties.htm

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

If beryllium-copper is too expensive, then I would investigate one of the high alloy bronzes like Ampco 45 or the Trojan alloy.  Reasonable high temperature strength, good thermal conductivity, and low wear against Ti are the obvious goals.  Good luck.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
Thanks ... I will check into Trojan.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
I am ordering some Trojan today, we will see how well it works!

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

Forgive me for going slightly off topic here, but would bronze valve seats be compatible with EV-8/21-4N Steel valves? If so what particular alloy of bronze would be best?

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
Get ampco 45.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

Does anyone know of a domestic (United States) source for the TROJAN alloy? We have a project that we would like to use the alloy for experimentally. The health concerns with copper/beryllium have made the company wary of that material.

Thanks in advance.

WH  

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
They (Columbia metals) will ship it to you via ups, it took me about a week to get it.

Its tricky to drill though.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

ZoRG,

I contacted Colimbia Metals directly and am in the process of placing an order to machine some test parts. Thanks.

I am curious as to just what you mean by, "It's tricky to drill though."

WH

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
If you can gundrill do that, I bought some material for valve guides it took 2 drills to bore 32 guides, next time Ill rather buy a gundrill, btw here are the guides:




For the seats, I first tried to do the drilling on a manual machine, and then just bore out with a boring bar on the cnc, however after a short while, the manual drill was blunt as well, so I got out our gundrill, and did the whole operation in the cnc, the gundrill worked really well here, I have not yet taken pics of these.


RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

ZoRG,

Thanks for the reply. We have some sample material coming from Columbia Metals. We are going to do seats and guides also.

Your parts look nice.

WH

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
Thanks, good luck.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
Hi WilliamH

Were you successful in your prototypes?

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

ZoRG,

We received the test material from Columbia Metals but have not machined any test parts yet. These parts are part of a larger project we are doing for a customer. Soon I hope.

WH

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

Given a recent edict that all motorsport fuels locally will have to be unleaded, how will this seat material last with unleaded fuel?

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
Are there any problems with any bronze materials and unleaded fuel? I was under the impression that the old steel seats were a issue.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

I believe softer steel and iron seats are not very good, however I am curious re the broze seat life with ULP, particularly over a long period of time.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
Well bronze guides/seats are used in many performance street motors on ULP with no long term problems.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

I am aware of the guides as I have installed them in my last two builds, I am interested in how the broze seats will retail cut seat characteristics without lubrication of lead and if they will 'pound out'

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
They don't show any problems(Ampco 45). I will let you know in a few months how mine works out, the head is still being worked on. Bronze/Metal is perfectly fine without lead though as long as the Bronze isn't too soft.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

Thank you, I will be interested in your findings

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

You might have an issue with bronze guides being considerably softer than cast iron and thus wearing faster.
They're used extensively on race engines because, in spite of their poor wear characteristics,  they conduct heat away from the valve stem much better than do iron guides. Race engines are torn-down frequently,  so high wear rates are acceptable.

That's where the beryllium-copper guides really shine: they have a higher thermal conductivity than bronze alloys,  and a hardness equivalent to that of cast iron.
It requires different machining techniques,  but these are well-understood, and I'm not sure that machining the stuff releases any "free" beryllium, so the health hazards are minimal - at least, I'm still alive, having done it off and on since 1975.
 - R

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
Silicone Bronze guides are quite hard, harder than Beryllium-copper actually, trojan is also slightly harder, with even higher heat conduction making it perfect for titanium and no toxic side effects for the head porter.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

is there a source of information to compare attributes of the materials?

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

Thank you I will have a read. I was wondering if there was any SAE papers comparing life/performance?

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
Not sure, if you want long life, go with silicone bronze guides, the material is cheap as well...
Manganese have better performance with acceptable wear, the material is also cheap, we will be doing a run 30 or so sets of Manganese guides soon.
Beryllium/copper is very expensive, if you wont be running titanium valves, don't bother. Same with trojan, it is very expensive, the material cost alone is about as much as you would pay for a set of manganese guides, but look at it as a replacement for beryllium/copper with better properties, no toxic elements, and slightly cheaper. Drilling it is tricky but a carbide drill will solve that, but it machines really nice, the above pictures doesn't really do it justice. These are better:

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

I have been looking at playing with a set of used ex Nascar Ti valves on a toy. Simply at the price they may be worth a play...however this requirement for seat material may curtail that plan and I may go 1 pc SS

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
Can you do your own machining?

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

to change valve dimensions to suit, yes. For the inserts/valves no. This would need to be done by someone else, which is not difficult to arrange but I had not planned on the cost of the valve seat material. I was attracted to the idea after seeing so many Del West valve sets with collets sell for $50 or so.
The picture above show some very nice work. What are they going in and why did you choose the given material?

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

Here is a another source of information on Beryllium Copper Alloys.  Their Materials Research Laboratories used to be an excellent source of information and were very good people to work with.  

http://www.olinbrass.com/olinbecu.html

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

Not sure where Zorg is getting his materials data,  but www.matweb.com shows a common, readily machinable beryllium-copper alloy having considerably greater hardness and 2.5 - 4 times the thermal conductivity of silicon-bronze alloys.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
From Columbia metals since they are a supplier of these.

Hardness:
TROJAN           : HB200Minimum 230-270Typical
Copper Beryllium : HB180
Colsibro         : HB200

COLSIBRO is a Copper Nickel Silicon alloy which offers a remarkable blend of properties at a non exotic price.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

Zorg, what is the price difference between those materials in your experience?

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
They are all expensive :(
Colsibro is the cheapest afaik, then Trojan, then CB I think trojan and CB are about the same, they don't differ by that much in raw form. Colsibro is not compatible with titanium though. And if your head porter doesn't have a respirator, go with trojan.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

The new Corvette engine (the 7.0L Gen-IV smallblock) is using a material for the Titanium intake valves (manufactured for GM by DelWest) called PMF-28.
Has anybody heard of this material, what its composition is, and where possibly to get it?
I cannot believe that GM would be using BeCu due to toxicity issues in their manifacturing plants, and these heads are assembled by GM in a Wixom facility (requiring valve lapping).

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

ZoRG,

In another thread, I believe you mentioned that you had Ti valves made in Russia. Did you have to pay a duty on these parts since the Bush administration imposed a protective tariff on Russian Ti? I think this tariff went into effect in November of 2004.

Also could you comment on the quality of the valves you had made in Russia?

Thanks in advance.
Will  

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

(OP)
Hi

I am not in the US, but they were sent there first of to the head porter, there were no import duties on the valves, but it was before November 2004. The quality is very good.

Have a look at the site : http://www.titanium-valve.com/english/index.htm, the price with shipping was around $685 for a set of polished valves, but you should only have them polish the inlet ones. That price includes shipping via UPS which was $100.

Cheers.

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

ZoRG,

Thank you for the information.

Will

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

Hi, I am new to this forum. However, I am both a gearhead and the Director of Technology for a domestic beryllium copper manufacturer. If anyone has any specific questions about this material, please let me know.

jjam




www.freedomalloysusa.com

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

jjam,

Any thoughts on the thermal conductivity of CuBe as compared to steel when used as a valve seat?

Also is it possible to run an inconl valve on a CuB seat?

RE: What valve seat material for Titanium Valves.

bobgzzi04,

CuBe alloys are used in plastic mold applications due to the excellent thermal condustivity and extremely wear resistant surface. The cycle times in a CuBe mold will be much faster than in a comparable steel mold. The thermal conductivity of CuBe is far superior to steel. Depending on the alloy of CuBe, it can be 3 to 10 times higher.

An Inconel valve should not be a problem at all. CuBe alloys and virtually all nickel based alloys that I have run across work well together. Unlike many other metals, CuBe also works well when run with or against  itself. 2% CuBe alloys have rotational bearing type galling values around 100KSI when run against other 2% CuBe alloys. That is extreme to say the least. When you compare these numbers to other typically high performance bushing alloys,like the various Ampco's, you find that the CuBe alloy properties are often 2-3 times better.  

2% CuBe alloys will hold peak properties in intermittent or continuous use at up to 625F. --.5% alloys will hold to about 800-850F. The properties of the two alloys though are very different. 2% alloys are typically HRc40 with 30% IACS electrical conductivity vs. .5% alloys with HRb 95 and 50% IACS conductivity.

If you need something even more robust, we make a NiBe alloy that will maintain HRc 50-55 at 900-1000F continuous.

Although I have seen the various NON-beryllium alloy ads touting better properties than CuBe, like Trojan, it is just not true. I have no idea where they get their CuBe property data, but it is not representative of CuBe's best. If it were possible, my company would be out of business. Beryllium containing alloys continue because they can and do perform in critical and severe duty applications where other metals will not. IF there were a lower cost and more traditional material that could perform like CuBe, there would be no market for CuBe. This is definitely not the case. Don't believe everything you read in metal ads.

jjam

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