Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
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Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
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RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
In order to stop the hemorraging of jobs oversea, we have to put the reins on our standard of living until the rest of the world catches up. In a world economy, all player must be playing by the same rules, problem is, we can not impose our rules on another nation. Take a hard look at what makes this country a hard place to do business compared to others, then make a decision... would you rather have that entitlement, or a job.
The standard of living that we have driven up over the decades has now started to collapse under it's own weight. It is time to let other countries enjoy the benefits we have enjoyed for so long. Only then will we be able to bring/keep jobs here in the US.
Just my two cents... but are they US, Canadian, Russian, or Chinese... each has their own value....
Regards,
jetmaker
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
re: your post in the last thread on this subject about new legislation regulating outsourcing to India.
Where did you read about this? I would be very interested in reading the article or even better the text of the legislative documents. Does it effect only India or are other countries mentioned?
I would suspect this has something to do with the upcoming elections -- primarily to appease the American public. I hope I am wrong and it truly encourages growth in the American economy. Lets see if Pres. Bush actually signs this into law.
I also suspect that it won't have too much impact on India since companies will probably still outsource and pay whatever fees/penalties are required --- and still show a profit better than they would by bringing the jobs back to the U.S.
ietech
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
If George W. truly is intent on preventing job loss to India (and I would like to see that link as well), how will he square that with backing off of steel tarriffs and granting amnesty to 6-12 million Mexican illegals? I think W has lost his mind.
It would make more sense, IMO, to simply buy Mexico. I wonder what the procedure would be? Maybe we could look into acquiring Cuba at the same time. The we could dispense with all of the border security problems and economic embargos. We bought Alaska. Why not?
I'm only slightly kidding. This idea is not any loonier than many currently proposed and considerably more rational than manned trips to Mars from a space base on the moon.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_546901,001300460...
Actually, a Google search with the terms “India senate outsourcing bill” gave many, many results with quite a few involving state governments. The link I listed I think is the story Arunmrao referred to…
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
What is evident is the impact of callcentre offshore outsourcing is the impact on the local jobs market. Jobs, it would seem, taht are hard to keep filled onshore with staff turnover at 90% compared to staff turnovers of 25% in India.
http://www.cc-associates.net/pdfs/Indian_call_centre.do...
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/031218/36/ehe7q.html
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040119/175/ejrto.html
This link suggests a similar Government disquiet in the UK:
http://www.computerweekly.com/Article124243.htm
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
do think the world could physically survive if the rest of the world used the same amount of energy propotionately as we currently do? [The rain forests would be stripped in less than a year...]
It is my supposition that yes, the rest of the world will use more energy and will, to some effect, increase their standard of living (some people more than others, some countries more than others) but the result will be less and more expensive for us and that means only one thing -- our standard of living won't be put on hold: for the majority of Americans, especially those in the middle class, will see their standard decline and decline significantly... (and more jobs going oversees)
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
The big American companies will take care to see that it does not affect them.(Bribe the politicians and bureaucrats)We are a 56 year old democracy and still carry the colonial attitude.
I look forward to a free and fair society for all and the interests of socially/economically weak sections protected.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
This would definitely encourage American companies to support their own country and the employees past and present who made these companies profitable from their beginnings.
I have, in the past, stated that I am a borderline isolationist and still believe this to be the best route for America to pursue.
I do not mean this disrespectfully to India or others. I only believe that the first responsibility of any person is to their home, homeland and family all else is insignificant; and the first responsibility of any government is to the citizenry that it represents.
Respectfully,
ietech
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_545774,001300460...
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
If we agree to having a level playing field we would have to insist of the same policies applying to all countries.
If you want an example of protectionism at its best, look no further than the Japanese car/auto market and how effectivelyu they have kept US and European car makers out while flooding those countries with Japanese cars. Of course, this has endured for decades and no government ever resolved this problem.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
To all, I would like all of you to ask yourself the following questions:
What can I do to ensure that the standard of living for myself and my family remains high?
What do I need for a quality standard of living?
How can I create additional sources of income that can provide for myself and my family and also potentially create jobs for others?
These are the questions I ask myself on a regular basis.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Your observations are very good ones. In fact, what you suggested is exactly what I believe must somewhat happen. In order for some of these other countries to enjoy a better standard of living, that of developed nations, in particular the US, will have to fall. I did not mention that here as it is not a very popular sentiment, as true as it may be. Nobody likes the idea of taking a drop in pay, education levels, health, etc... while the price of goods and seervices remains fixed.
The truth appears to be all around us... spiraling healthcare costs, increasing older population putting strains on underfunded pension plans, employers requiring College educations to perform tasks that highschool dropouts use to do. It looks like a system that is poised to collapse on itself as the underlying structure can not longer support it. It is my fear that if we do not put some restraint into our standard of living, it will be imposed on us by a global economy. Only the weathly will come out of this unharmed.
Pablo02, what we must remember is that as unemployment rises, people will be willing to work for less, and hence stop the hemorraging of jobs oversea. It is the imbalance in the standard of living between nations which is driving the flow of jobs. I am not saying to abandon all hope, just that we need to make a decision on what is more important... a job to live with now... or a fat pension to live by later. The way I see it.. if you do not have the first, the second will never follow. It is all a matter of priorities.
Regards,
jetmaker
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Many good points in your post - the only one I disagree with is that the wealthy will not be effected. They are the folks who are destroying their own feeding ground, the U.S. and European marketplace.
Where there are no jobs there is no money to purchase goods --thus no slop in the trough for the wealthy to fatten themselves on. The wealthy's reaction to this type of thing was well documented during the "Great Depression" Look out below!!!
Yes, when our economy finally implodes, and it will the wealthy will be impacted severly. I give it fifteen/twenty years before it distructs. So make hay while the sun is still shining.
I really don't think China or India can support their own productivity either. Who will purchase all of the goods and services they produce?
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
The US will remain a place where many can achieve greatness, material wealth, etc... it just won't be reality for the masses... [I am not abandoning all hope, either. We need to look reality in the face and then decide what we are going to do...]
You are right, many of our jobs will stop hemorraging when the wages and benefits drop -- the question is how far?
I spent close to 30 years at one company, forced into early retirement -- my (ever increasingly costly to me) health benefits basically cease at 65; the former CEO with 4 years of service was ran off due to dragging the company down -- he gets "FREE medical for life for him and his dependents" (emphasis mine)... how's them apples?
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
If the leaders of the outsourcing/offshoring movement really believe that its a good thing for the USA in the long run, then maybe they should give generous severence packages to the affected workers, until the short term effects of outsourcing/offshoring subside. I heard somewhere that when container ships were introduced, the companies had to pay off the affected longshoremen.
New York State recently introduced continuing education requirements in order for engineers to keep their PE licenses. However, the state engineers (unionized) are exempt from the requirements, since they demanded that the state pay for the classes. See what can be achieved when people band together?
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Some say that voting is how to express our views. Yes, the vote is a wonderful right to have but it obviously is not causing our representatives to take care of their average people. They seem to cater to only special interests and the wealthy.
When people band together and pool their efforts and money, all of the sudden they can have some impact on policy.
ietech
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
I have not read the publication which you reference. However, the wealthy will fair much better than the poor. My understanding of the Great Depression was that the wealthy were hit hard because they had money invested in stocks... not assets. When the markets tanked, most lost their shirts... partly because they were borrowing money they did not have to invest in stocks. Today's economy is much more global, the wealthy have diversified themselves so as to minimize localized recession. Middle class people will suffer the most as their jobs disappear, along with their small investments and pension funds.
Another point is the unions. For once, I have to admit that unions do serve a beneficial purpose. And that is that they act as a group and put pressure on the politicians. However, I also feel that a good chunk of the blame belongs on unions for being so ornary and responsible for letting things get so far out of control.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Thanks all,
jetmaker
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
I wasn't referencing any publications --- just my 2 cents (IMHO).
You are correct about the Great Depression and the wealthy being heavily overextended in stocks. I am not too sure that isn't the case again; and to stave off severe losses many are awaiting a significant economic recovery before bailing out. As far as physical assets -- I cannot express an opinion since I don't have any insight into the asset holdings of the wealthy in America.
You are also correct when you state that the middle class will be the hardest hit in the future. It is a shame that the backbone of America (the middle-class) can be broken and is totally incapable of defense.
Yes, unions are quite a dichotomy aren't they. On one hand the are our only hope of being represented as a group --- on the other hand many times go too far in their efforts, almost to the point of self destruction.
Respectfully,
ietech
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Slightly off topic
Re the topic of New York State exempting it's own employees from cont. Education.
I am a ct engineer we just learned that we have to do ceu's to keep our PEs in NY. Yet the state exempts themseleves!!!! How are we supposed to exempt someone who keeps exempting themselves from the rules they make they should spend more time worrying about contractors building it right instead of making us do cont. ed
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
jetmaker
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.02/india.html
A few quotes
"Ritesh Maniar reminds me that Hexaware has scored a Level 5 rating from Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering Institute, the highest international standard a software company can achieve. The others are quick to note that, of the 70 or so companies in the world that have earned this designation, half are from India."
""Don't you think we're helping the US economy by doing the work here?" asks an exasperated Lalit Suryawanshi. It frees up Americans to do other things so the economy can grow, adds Jairam.
What begins to seep through their well-tiled arguments about quality, efficiency, and optimization is a view that Americans, who have long celebrated the sweetness of dynamic capitalism, must get used to the concept that it works for non-Americans, too."
"And if this transition pinches a little, aren't Americans being a tad hypocritical by whining about it? After all, where is it written that IT jobs somehow belong to Americans - and that any non-American who does such work is stealing the job from its rightful owner?"
""We can't stop globalization," Turner <USA politician who has raised a bill to prevent government from sourcing jobs overseas> says. But outsourcing, especially now, amounts to "contributing to our own demise." When jobs go overseas, governments lose income tax revenue - and that makes it even harder to assist those who need a hand."
"Patni is India's sixth-largest software and services exporter; Hexaware ranks 18th. Patni employs about 6,500 people in offices all over the world and has a long-standing relationship with GE and a $100 million investment from the venture capital firm General Atlantic Partners. ....
Yet for all this muscle-flexing, Patni remains a relative pipsqueak. Its 2002 revenue was about $188 million. That same year, the American IT firm EDS hauled in revenue of $21.5 billion."
"Worried about India's practically infinite pool of smart, educated, English-speaking people eager to work for the equivalent of your latte budget? Get used to it. Today's Indian call centers, programming shops, and help desks are just the beginning. Tomorrow it will be financial analysis, research, design, graphics - potentially any job that does not require physical proximity. The American cubicle farm is the new textile mill, just another sunset industry. "
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
I have a low opinion of these centres anyway, wherever located and especially because of my experience with Symantec. I got better support from Tek-Tips, more imediate and more helpful. However, in a forum bemoaning the lost of jobs overseas, let's keep a focus. Worrying about call centres going offshore may be misguided. If a 90% staff turnover rate means anything it means that these are jobs US engineers and UK engineers don't want to do. A 25% trunover rate in India doesn't exactly suggest these are jobs that well educated and overqualified engineers there are exactly happy about, but then there are diferent pressures there. 90% turnover suggests alternative jobs to go to. 25% suggests less employment opportunities.
So lets just assume that tough call though this is we might ougth to worry more about those jobs where the voluntary leaveing rate is in the low single figures e.g. 1-5% because these are the jobs we'd rather keep.
As for call centres, why have them? How soon before they are all operated by home workers? The improvements in connection speed and networking capability (FUNNELGUY and excepted) suggests this could be the next step. Thin about it, ENG-Tips and TEK-TIPS is already a better call cnetre set-up with global operatives and almost instant response!
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Asked in the 'Financial Times' why the Poms and Yanks tolerate such poor quality cars, GM vice chairman Bob Lutz said "The British and the Americans are not anal, which is why we will easily tolerate crooked pictures on the walls... (these) would simply not be tolerated in Switzerland, Germany, Japan, probably Korea - all these highly anal cultures."
If this is accurately reported, then I'm speechless. Perhaps American manufacturing should be outsourcing it's management!
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Also "customer" or "service orientation" is a new concept in our country. All along it was government controlled market,with licences and quota system in place. Many of these fresh youngsters may not be able to present themselves well as they might not have adequate experience in a service oriented society. But I hope they shall learn soon. It is because of this handicap some might have faced problems. I too encounter these problems when I interact with foreign banks.
In near future high tech areas where analysis capability,decison making,financial accounting,research etc is involved you will find a strong Indian presence.
(On a lighter vein I have been telling my family that after I retire for supporting my family I too may seek a job in a call centre for 2 reasons 1) I love to talk 2) call centre jobs invariably are night shift jobs,due to old age I can remain awake at night without any problem.)
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
With the typical CEO pay and bonuses, just outsourcing a single CEO position to, say China, at a 10% rate would save perhaps $10M per outsource CEO. This would be enough to save 200+ hard working American jobs in a single company.
A CEO (or other top guy) so removed from where the products are made would also increase American work productivity immensely. Need I explain Why?
A greedy unethical CEO in the Far East might embezzle a new car, the cost of a new home, etc. These items in another economy might cost $1M instead of the $tens to $hundreds of $Millions$ as exampled in recent US news.
Maybe the REAL reason American jobs are outsourced to the other side of the world is to get the productive work as far away as possible from disruptive management influences. What we need to do is outsource the management!
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=SSO...
I was in a somewhat similar position of training my replacement when the company I was working for was purchased by an overseas firm. The difference I suppose was that we were the subsidiary and it was not unexpected.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
The laws had been written in a manner which allows corporations to use overseas labor precisely because these corporations did lobby ( perhaps thru Nat'l assoc of manufacturers, etc)and there was not voiced any effective countervailing protest by an equivalent interest group. These exact same lobbying gruops are the same ones pushing for guest worker visas, and encouraging the non-funding of the agencies charged to prevent illegal immigration. Its not rocket science.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Your dead on. It's th golden rule, them with the gold makes the rules.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
The US Dollar has lost about 24% value against the Euro and other foreing currency. This you might not be aware of, but now to buy products from Europe is more expensive (imported inflation?) if the trend continues you will have more jobs as European companies will find more sense in building their products in the US than over there, plus a lot of jobs are going to be saved or created to cope with the domestic demand of US-made products to replace the higher cost of the ones who where imported up to now into the US, and as the icing in the cake, a lot of products are going to be exported from the states to foreing markets which were currently supplied by european and japanese companies.
I for one example have droped my suppliers of crane components from european suppliers (German and Finland)to suppliers from the States.
So maybe a light is shinning at the end of the tunnel, what has to be done is to find a way to manufacture in the US more efficiently to compensate for the low wages paid in 3rd world countries.
SACEM1
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
'I was forced to train the Indian who took my job'
Please refer to this article,which mentions that an Engineer from Siemens who has been affected by BPO is running for US congress from Florida so that his voice may be heard.. He is one step ahead than the rest.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Nice post. However, one fact that you forgot was that some countries have their currency pegged to the US greenback. China for example. So, a lower dollar in the US just means a lower dollar in China.
In an even playing field, I'd agree with your perspective. But since the world does not play fair, what you mentioned will provide only limited relief.
Looking forward to the discussion.
jetmaker
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Recent worries about a new great depression have largely proved unfounded and the stock markets have proven far more robust because, i suspect, there is either less naivity or a greater awareness that some things just cannot be allowed to happen.
Of course, what this does for US jobs, i don't know.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Question: Which event most clearly shows the extent of Globalisation?
Answer: Princess Diana's death.
Question: Why?
Answer: An English princess with an Egyptian boyfriend crashes in a French tunnel,driving a German car with a Dutch engine, driven by a Belgian who was drunk on Scottish whisky, (check the bottle before you change he spelling)followed closely by Italian Paparazzi, on Japanese motorcycles; treated by an American doctor, using Brazilian medicines.
This is sent to you by an Australian, using Bill Gates' American technology,and you're probably reading this on one of the IBM clones, that use Taiwanese chips, and a Korean monitor, assembled by Bangladeshi workers in a Singapore plant, transported by Indian lorry-drivers, hijacked by Indonesians, unloaded by Sicilian longshoremen, and trucked to you by Mexican illegals.....
That, my friends, is Globalisation.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
That, my friends, is racism.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
The nationalities mentioned by speedy's post are just that "nationalities" none of them mentioned are a Race --- just that all are part of the "Human Race".
When speaking of globalization it is perfectly correct to reference different nationalities.
Speedy,
Great post and I certainly do not think you are a RACIST.
A little humor never hurts especially when it is not directed as an insult or shows no disrespect. I think some folks have their BVD's bunched up.
ietech
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
To clear up, I don't beleive you are racist either. Please don't take my post that way. I am just trying to highlight that the story you quoted serves to enforce generalizations based on a person's origin or nationality (I'm not sure if there is a word for descrimination based on nationality, racism seemed to me to fit initially). I won't get into why I think generalizations do nothing to progress our society, maybe do some reading on the subject if you are interested. Anyways, please don't think I am taking offense or 'flaming' you, I am just pointing out this fact.
That, my friends, is an apology
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
You know, I had just posted it when I thought 'Gee, I hope it isn't offensive to anyone'.
No offence intended. I didn't write it anyway, lame excuse I know.
By the way, I’m Irish and a ‘Culchie’ living in Dublin. Culchie is a derogatory term for someone from the countryside. Unless of course you are a culchie, in which case it is worn as a badge of honour. I guess it depends which side of the fence you are on.
Apologies to all!!!
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
There was no offence meant in your thread nor any hint of racial prejudice. It was taken well as a piece of humor and in the right spirit. There is no need for you to offer any apologies.
This thread though a controversial one has been carrying the opinions of everyone without causing any disrespect or hurt to the feelings of any one. This only goes to prove the maturity of the contributors and willingness to accept other's view,though divergentit may be.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
I agree with Arunmrao, this is a contraversial thread with some provocative ideas. It is imperative that it should not be required that anyone explain their background or origins in order to express a viewpoint. Speedy said it himself, after he'd posted, he wondered if he would upset anyone. Fortunately "after" is the operative word. I would not like to think that some before decide not to post because it might give offense where none is intended, that will deprive us all of valuable input.
In fact Speedy's post was a vlauable one as it does show how far the world ishas moved and the direction it is moving.
Once upon a time the US was referred to as a "melting pot", now the euphemism is "salad bowl" which personally, i like better because it does suggest that we can each be proud of our own heritage and not have to pretend we are all exactly alike. Different means just that, different. Not better or worse, just different and as the French say, Vive la deferance". God help Europeans when every little village and high street is exactly the same. When there is no difference there is no interest. What all to often goes wrong is that some people look down on the heritage of others and that is something else again.
Now, do i have to explain or justify my heritage? I suggest you answer no, becayuse my posts are long enough already!
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
It is a shame that the USA is a "salad bowl", and not the "melting pot" that it use to be, or was at least trying to be. I agree that it is important that each culture be able to retain their culture, but that must be secondary. Everyone needs to be working towards a common goal, and not focusing on their self-interests. The US politican scene is now bombarded by special interest groups. Everybody wanting what is best for them, and not thinking about what is best for the nation as a whole. This is not very productive.
A good example of this is the European Union. They are a true "salad bowl" as each culture was well established before the Union formed. However, this has resulted in many squables amungst the nations as they each vi for power. Look at how long it took to approve the Euro currency, and it is still not adopted by Britian. Or the -400M transport... Germany held the program at bay for years due to their own politican system.
I know this was off topic, and thanks for letting me rant. As a final note I must say this... we must respect each person as an individual, and whether we agree with their opinions or not, they are entitled to them.
Regards,
jetmaker
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
The majority are industry exempt from professional licensing.
So, if you are interested in engineering and would like job security, work in an engineering area that requires professional licensing in that state.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Zapster,
The majority of the engineers in the non-exempt fields are also unlicensed. Lets remember that the only one who is legally required to be licensed is the one who stamps drawings. This could essentially be 1 person out of 100. Design work in the non-exempt fields is also being done overseas, with a stateside PE to do plan review and stamping. Also, the licensing laws could be changed to allow foreign nationals to get USA PE licenses. It wouldn't surprise me if this happens in say 5 years, considering the global nature of the world economy.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
You state... "Also, the licensing laws could be changed to allow foreign nationals to get USA PE licenses."
I was not aware that foreign nationals could not be licensed now. I have always understood that if the eduction and experience issues met the states requirements, then the engineer may sit for the EIT and PE exams.
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
www.tankindustry.com
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
It is our legal system’s definition between legal liabilities being actual damages or being able to include compensatory damages that help to compel an engineer to avoid being guilty of gross negligence.
Designs that require a licensed engineer’s supervision will not quickly leave the United States. Currently we have engineers working in the exempt fields complaining about their ineligible for licensing because they have not met the requirements for working under the direct supervision of a licensed engineer. Unless the requirements for becoming a licensed engineer change substantially, it will be quite some time before there are a significant number of foreign engineers with United State licenses.
For now, job security is much better for engineering fields that require licensed engineers than the industry exempt fields.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Zapster and EddyC - Foreign engineers can be licensed in the states. Maybe there are some differnt rules in your state. If you have the experience and the education then why not? Actually in most countries (Canada, Australia, New Zealand) immigration rules make it so you pretty much have to be a professional (doctor, engineer, etc) to qualify to immigrate.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
The thread is "Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II."
This is not about engineers being able to immigrate.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Don't worry about not being on topic it seems that even the Zapsters's last post dealt with litigation, supervision of drawings, compensatory damages, etc. although he did touch on the thread subject slightly near the end of his post.
I was aware of the topic you mentioned whereas anyone can come to the U.S and work, taking jobs from Americans, but we cannot go to several countries, as you mentioned, without specific skills, education and professional qualification.
It comes back to the old "Level Playing Field" concept again. We welcome all but few welcome us.
Just like the trade laws, environmental laws, etc. it seems the deck is stacked against us, yet we appear to try to help other people succeed as they develop their countries. I know our efforts in other places are not truly altruistic and are many times only political or benefit specific interests in the U.S. -- But our jobs still go elsewhere and to benefit only a few, while the rest try to keep things afloat in America.
ietech
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
"Unless the requirements for becoming a licensed engineer change substantially, it will be quite some time before there are a significant number of foreign engineers with United State licenses."
"Also, the licensing laws could be changed to allow foreign nationals to get USA PE licenses. It wouldn't surprise me if this happens in say 5 years, considering the global nature of the world economy."
All I was saying was that foreign engineers can work in the states and be licensed.
Ietech:
As you may be aware I totally disagree with you saying that the deck is stacked against the richest, strongest most powerful country in the world. Boo-hoo the rest of us really feel for ya all. I will state again that the US does not have the strongest environmental regs and don't forget that the states is usually the bully in most trade disputes.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
I will ask you again as I have in other posts and did not get an answer.
1) Tell me who has more stringent environmental laws than the U.S. --- Please inform me because I would really like to know.
2) I would also like to know if we are losing engineering or manufacturing jobs to those countries with stricter environmental laws. Are they countries that compete for our jobs?
When I write about these things I am specifically relating to countries that our jobs are being outsourced to. Such as Taiwan, India, Indonesia, China, Mexico, the list goes on, and yes the auto industry in Canada. Are environmental laws in Canada stricter than the U.S.?
If you choose the word Bully in the trade issue I can understand that due to the past issues in the lumber industry. But who is really the bully --- when our environmental laws prevented us from cutting adequate amounts of lumber to support the U.S. market.
Who came to the rescue with lumber for us -- Yes our good neighbor Canada --- and boy was the price a big one, since they had a pretty captive market the prices on lumber from Canada skyrocketed. So who was the initial bully there?
I see the Federal Government in the U.S. as an entity that does not take care of the common interest at home, only the interests of the large companies and special interest groups.
They may be bullies but do not bully to "save our jobs" and willingly let American companies go offshore where laws are lax and labor is cheap. Well they are also slowly destroying the market where the thing made overseas are predominantly sold.
The U.S. should "Bully" (your term) more and protect American jobs and industries for Americans.
PLEASE tell me the answers to questions 1 and 2 above I really would like to know the answer.
ietech
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Good Luck
johnwm
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Where are the most "Green House Gases" produced per-capita?
It is easy to state generalities -- but the fact is that the U.S. is cleaner than most highly populated industrial countries. especially those that are benefiting from the exodus of jobs and manufacturing from the U.S.
Manufacturing leaving the U.S. is, in itself, a statement about this issue and other issues discussed in this thread.
If environmental and labor issues were friendly to industry in the U.S. companies would not be leaving at record rates.
Today's Americans seem to want to give away all the things previous have worked hard for and find almost every excuse to do so.
Americans and American Government should be true and faithful to their own first the rest come second.
Canadians, Indians, Mexicans, Indonesians etc should be faithful to their own as should all other nationalities to theirs.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
I was trying to find a site that would back up your arguement Ietech. the only countries that I could find that have higher GHG emissions per capita than the states are Australia, Canada and Luxenborg.
http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/UniqueKey...$File/95_ghg_percapita.pdf
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Thanks for the link. I am interested in learning more about this and will do some research.
By the way were you able to find anything regarding questions #1 and #2 in my post on 7 Feb.
ietech
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
I was trying to find a site that would back up your arguement Ietech. On some sites I could find countries that have higher GHG emissions per capita than the states - Australia, Canada and Luxenborg. However on most sites the USA is the highest per capita. I really like the slide show on the USA EPA site that lists the states as the highest. It then goes on to show how the states has higher GHG emissions that most continents. Maybe you should do some homework Ietech. We wouldn't want any generalities on this site. I'm sure people making these outrageous claims have all studied environmental science at a university. Studying environmental science on CNN just doesn't cut it.
PS - It has already been proven in the courts that the USA lumber tariffs againest Canadian lumber were BS. Now the US has to pay back a whole shwack of money. Save them jobs???
QCE
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
As I said thanks for the link it was interesting and I will read further into it this is part of what i have been askin for for several mnths in different threads.
Although the link is informative it doesn't address per-capita in major manufacturing competitors with the U.S. This is what I am especially interested in and I will see if I can find something that deals with those countries also.
Yes, I agree we should "Save Them Jobs" after all if America fails so does much of the world.
Wasn't aware of the cout decision lumber tariffs --- guess we came out on the short end of the stick again.
Keep whackin' away at the U.S. if you haven't noticed your economy is highly dependant on ours -- it seems you would hope we succeed alongside you.
ietech
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
What impact does this have on US Engineers jobs? It is nice to console engineers that their jobs are going because (a) they have been pollutting the environment and (b) now they are not? Jobs going from an eonomy when it cuts back on production to stop pollution is one thing, jobs going from an economy to somewhere else is another. Still, i think this is now wandering from the thread.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Regarding the environmental laws being stricter. From what I have seen some European countries have stricter emission regulations than the states. I think you will agree that it would be quit a bit of work to prove this either way or else you probably would have proved me wrong by now. Since some countries in Europe are ruled by green parties I guess they would have a little stronger regs than the US.
Actually this is not important anymore since you have now changed your arguement that nondeveloped countries are not playing fair with the states regarding environmental regs.
Manufacturing jobs are going to nondeveloped countries from developed countries not just the US. However there still seems to be a lot of engineering jobs staying in the developed countries. Maybe this thread should clarify manufacturing jobs are not necessarily engineering jobs.
"Although the link is informative it doesn't address per-capita in major manufacturing competitors with the U.S. This is what I am especially interested in and I will see if I can find something that deals with those countries also."
Actually there is a slide that shows that the USA has more carbon emissions than all of Asia put together. Although these reports are a few years old and carbon emissions are not the whole picture - it is pretty good indication of the naivety of the group of people that attacked me last time I stated that the US is a large GHG emitter per capita.
I will leave it with this - I am not a Kyoto nut as I don't think the agreement has all of the answers and I hope that engineering careers will thrive in all countries with new innovative ideas. Yes in some cases I have been playing devils advocate on this site to try and stimulate conversation and steer it away from a thread that is just a complaining session about lose of jobs.
Have a great thread! Ietech thanks for playing along and keeping it interesting.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Thanks for the input I have learned some new stuff and intend to pursue it further outside the forum. Although I am not too concerned about environmental issues in themselves, I am interested in how they impact jobs and the cost of manufacturing and engineering.
As I have stated before there are several things encouraging U.S. companies to set up operations in other countries, i.e. labor cost, plant setup and maintenance, environmental regs, possibly child lobor, prisoner labor and sweat shop work environments. I'm not sure that all of these apply to the loss of jobs but suspect that there is some relationship.
Since this website does not have an environmental forum I will see if I can find some other to get additional info. from informed folks such as yourself.
Thanks again for the dialog
ietech
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
The playing field is not level and we are our own worst opponent. It looks like we have made the playing field unlevel for ourselves. No reason to heap more upon ourselves by buying into Kyoto, eh? Reminds me of the old Pogo cartoon... "We have seen the enemy and he is us"
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
www.tankindustry.com
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Thank you for that information. It's nice to know rhat there might just be some validity to my opinions.
Don't ya just love PoGo
ietech
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Manufacturing-engineers in India make only USD 14000 per annum, which will be offset by an US engineer by virtue of his high productivity in just two months. What is the trick that you manage to do so is beyond my understanding
(Above is joke, below is fact)
I do not agree with what you have cited. There is just one and only angle to outsorcing and that is wage. Believe me, the wages in US are too high to be compensated by anything but outsourcing.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Sorry if I was not clear, the cited article was not about engineering positions, it was about US manufacturing firms coping with higher US wages. US productivity and efficiencies can overcome the wage differences for US manufacturing firms competing against off shore manufacturers. It was the other self-imposed stuff that screwed things up. Engineering salaries, while part of the equation, were not the focus of the article.
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
www.tankindustry.com
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
"Bush Blesses outsourcing to India"
Please refer to the link and fireaway.Bush promises 2.6 million jobs to be created and economy growth of 4%..
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/488790.c...
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
"We're from the government, and here to help you."
deserves what they are about to get. Obviously according to Bush, the proverbial bird in the hand is not worth the two in the bush (is there a pun there?) Of course, this being an election year, a politician will promise anything to anyone in order to win votes.
2.6 million jobs created? I'd love to see it but no guarantees there folks. In what industries might they be? What relative value to the ones being outsourced?
Once again, the November election choices will be between the "lesser of two evils". Oh how I love election years.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Also known as the evil of two lessers.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
What will our new industries be?
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/feb04/207825.asp
A little background: Thomas More high school is a local private school. Marquette and Milwaukee School of Engineering (MSOE) are universities within city limits with good sized engineering schools.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Many engineers saw the loss of manufacturing jobs to offshore outsourcing as a smart business move and the logical thing to do. Why would the loss of engineering leadership and jobs be any different? Engineers are simply another resource or commodity to be managed. Do we really care where the analysis was done so long as it was adequate? If the pay scale in the US continues to degrade, fewer students will undertake the rigors of an engineering education. Seems like a natural progression to me.
Also, today's CAD and CAE tools and related advances in communication have made today's engineers much more productive. We therefore wouldn't need as many for a given level of activity.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
I must have read over a hundred articles just like it.
This "press" seems to come from industry, academia and
and certain high profile engineering organizations that are aligned with them. The government's own data & projections contradict this (see www.dol.gov).
This article, like the others, always seem to imply that the problem is the lack of supply of engineers without ever mentioned that the demand for engineers has slowed.
Students simply do not go into fields where there are fewer jobs. In the U.S. you can have a better future in the legal and medical fields and that is why students go there.
Engineering jobs are going overseas because the engineers can be paid less in India, etc. The supply of engineers China & India is increasing to meet this demand.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
I'll give my two cents on this more later. It pains me to see new graduates struggling to find jobs after 4 or sometimes 5 years of study (which was my case since I went to a school where co-op was mandatory).
Design News had a similar article on the decline of engineers. But let's not let politicians or businessmen use this as a reason for outsourcing. Lack of engineers is most certainly not the reason.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Engineering is going overseas?
Yes, economic laws say that you are not going to stop the flow of engineering jobs, and other careers as well, until you can make your home costs at least equal with the cost of sending the job to another place, and let me add that this is true for any country in the world, the jobs are going to go where the cost is lower.
So the first thing to do is set a goal: Lower your costs, because engineering jobs total cost is not only the engineer wage but also the fringe benefits, work place costs, enviromental costs, taxes, overhead, manegerial costs and "way of living costs".
As a tourist I've roamed a lot the States and find your country lives in a buy-consume-waste state of mind that to foreigners is bewildering. All of this amounts to "way of living costs" i.e. You should save energy: in winter you are in sleeves inside offices because its so hot/in summer you wear a jacket in the same office because its so cold inside. Your buildings are kept alight all night just so they look nice, For enviromental interest and reduced costs, recicling should be implemented: there has to be found yet a Hotel/Motel that has a bin for recycling newspapers (which would save a bundle of those trees you where talking before). Your medical expenses could be brought down if generic medication was more in use, absurd medical expenses were controlled.
Your tax burden is high because your goverment is so willing to spend money in forein adventures, i.e. ever wonder how much did each american had to pay for getting their kids killed in Vietnam, and how much are they going to foot in the Irak bill, besides the daily loss of valuable lifes. Lets not forget the high cost of welfare which mantains a living standard for "poor people" that would be "better than middle class" in other countries.
A lot has been said in this thread about "top exec officers" wages, golden parachutes and benefits, even if the company losses money or gets shut down, but that has to be ended, salaries paid can not be self given or by a board of directors which in turn earn also in accordance with the top guy, or gal.
As an individual, when each of you start living with saving in their minds and not falling to mermaid songs that make them buy consumer appliances that are not really needed, and foreign buil mostly, 120$ sneakers for their sons/daughters and so on, and you know better what I mean then you will be able to have a surplus of cash which will be needed when the US dollar losses its buying power against the Euro/yen currency and makes US costs more competitive in world markets.
Its going to happen, the dollar goes down, your way of living returns to more world like standards, productivity increases and engineers will have more work in a more stable situation but indeed with a more reasonable way of life and then maybe you wll get those lost jobs back.
SACEM1
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
In GB you sure have a big tax burden and it is very expensive because of all the social shelters that it provides to its own citizens plus all the commonwealth inmigrants.
Good luck
SACEM1
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
corus
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
In the UK some companies are closing down their Indian call centres and bringing back jobs because they are losing customers. The call centre staff in India were not selling as many new products compared to their UK equivalents.
In my opinion there will still be lots demand for qualified engineers in the West and I for one am not at all worried about losing my job due to outsourcing.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
SACEM1
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
You raise an interesting point... the effectiveness of the outsourced engineering work. I have only encountered outsourcing a few times. In one instance, a power utility selected a brand name A&E in the midwest to perform facility design for a major expansion on a power plant. The A&E outsourced the structural design to an south asian firm. No problem, after all, anyone can perform structural analysis and design, right? As the project progressed past the details and construction began, the problems began to surface. $100,000 reworks here, $20,000 reworks there... it just kept going on and on. Obviously the outsourcing didn't work in this case. Other projects have suffered similarly. Has anyone else heard of these same types of problems?
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
www.tankindustry.com
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Many years ago the tax situation in the UK was so bad that car companies where making components in the UK and shipping them overseas at a nominal loss. Once assembled overseas they canme back as "expensive" subassemblies for final assembly into the car. In effect the car production costs were as much as the sales price...except for the profit taken overseas on the sub-assembly work.
If government cares about a particular industry sector then it can do something about it.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
stevebraune,if all the outsourced jobs were a disaster then by now these ripples of dissatisfaction would have grown into a wave. But that is not true. The wave is a positive one for outsourcing. Many companies are announcing hiring professionals in 1000's over here.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
I agree that if all outsourced jobs were a disaster then the growth in outsourcing would quickly turn around and collapse. I suspect that the instance cited by me is not typical. The problems are typically not an issue of how good the engineers in India are. The issue often has more to do with project management and communications. I believe the challenge for conducting work offshore will continue to be the communications based. Phone, fax, telex, email, etc will never replace the face-to-face communications. Communications-wise, the distance from Chicago to India is equal to the distance from Chicago to Houston. US based firms that share work between offices still have these types of problems.
What would greatly concern me is your statement that engineers are being hired by the thousands. That type of rapid growth will present quality challenges. I've been thru it before. It can be solved, but it will take a bit of time. Until resolved, I would expect a period of more project "disasters". I guess in the overall scheme of things, growth problems are lot more fun that shrinking employment problems.
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
www.tankindustry.com
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
"In my view, this trend is being driven by accountants, directors and shareholders keen to save money and not by the engineers themselves."
May I know what makes you think that engineers are more charitable than the others in their profession and give less concern to making or saving money?
It is part and parcel of engineer's job to see the money issues as well. If your job demands it, you hardly have a choice.
Regards.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
In the UK accountants, directors and shareholders often make the decision to outsource because they run the company. The engineers (or the ones doing the work) are often tasked with implementing the outsourcing.
I'm not against outsourcing because I do it myself but it is not the easy option. Maybe if the moneymen knew the true cost of outsourcing such as project management, long distance communication, checking and quality control they wouldn't be quite so keen.
I think engineers are good at saving money because they recognise false economy when it comes down to engineering issues and accountants can't see this. (I'm not saying all outsourcing is false economy sometimes it can be good for the business)
Half price FEA results are worthless if you don't believe the results or they are wrong. I'm not saying Indian engineers are any less competent than in the UK but how can they see the big picture and arrive at the most cost effective solution when working from the other side of the world? (They don't get to hear any of the office discussions outside of a meeting)
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
. "Phone, fax, telex, email, etc will never replace the face-to-face communications."
I am happy to find one more person who believes in face to face meeting. I strongly believe in this and many times I travel more than 500 miles to resolve an issue.
I too am astonished about this mass recruitment, with little or no emphasis on talent or commitment,except common factor being lure for the green bucks.I do not understand as to how they could mold these youngsters in a short time. Perhaps the requirement levels are low.
Communication is an issue. Locally too I am disappointed by the quality of response and give up making enquiries. Knowledge of English or accent is not the issue. It is the ability to comprehend the caller's needs and effectively reply,which will be appreciated.
flame,
Many of the engineers who climb up the ladder forget that they were engineers and behave ridiculously. At that time they are neither engineers nor management gurus,but put on airs. It is funny dealing with them.
chris9,
Some of the pitfalls associated with outsourcing raised by you are also my concern.But as long as it brings returns to business there is not much anyone can do.In a similar vein an Indian consultancy firm working for an Indian project can be as ineffective if it has not visited the site . To overcome this lacuna, site engineers are now recruited into consultancy organizations.
It is still a learning curve and I am sure some of the issues will be overcome.
As Steve put it "growth problems are more fun than shrinking jobs problem"
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Americans have a well-known propensity to rally around the flag and their president. It is one of their country’s major strengths.
Now that President Bush has stated that outsourcing jobs to other countries is a good idea, (in his economic report referred to above), I would expect all loyal Americans to rally around the words of their president and work harder at outsourcing jobs.
Since Canada is the lowest cost of doing business country in the industrialized world we stand to benefit. See Thread730-87634
Thank you Mr. President.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
You must be bored... stirring the pot a little?
I checked your referenced link to your other thread and found it to be nothing more than a thinly disguised marketing advertisement bought and paid for by its "sponsors". Pure pablum.
Americans are perhaps more jingoistic or patriotic than some would wish. We do not blindly follow our leaders, however. The battle currently looks to be between Bush and Kerry. Both are NAFTA and international free trade supporters so the votes will be decided on other issues. Kerry has been pounding Bush over the loss of 2.6 million jobs here in the US. I find Kerry's support of offshore outsourcing interesting given the Democratic party's labor ties and the GAO's continuing to malign NAFTA and similar treaties effects on our economy and jobs.
I really don't see Canada benefiting from any of this. Canada will simply be passed by eventually as US corporations expand their expertise in offshore outsourcing to more efficient producers in Asia and elsewhere. When necessary, offshore producers will build facilities in the US as required by trade treaties. Someday we'll be assembling Korean, Chinese and Indian cars and trucks here just as we currently do with German and Japanese producers. It's all about quotas and consumers.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
There is no doubt that vehicle manufacture will move into SE Asia in a big way - the funding from the governments concerned is huge (even when compared with the similar bribes offered by other countries) and it will take many years for the wages of the workers to catch up with those in alternative countries.
So far as I know the only country that does not offer bribes to foreign car companies to set up is Japan. The USA offers some good deals in Kentucky, for example, and I'm sure there are plenty of other states willing to ease the establishment of a new assembly plant. In Australia we have the ludicrous situation where neighbouring states bid against each other to get manufacturing plants set up.
Getting engineering outsourced is a different kettle of fish. Up until the last twenty years or so it was unusual (but by no means unheard of) to source product development out of a different continent. With the improvement in communications that is no longer the case, so each contract goes out globally. This has actually increased the number of automotive product engineering jobs in first world countries, even though they may have moved around a bit from country to country. I think we'll see an increase in product engineering in developing nations, and the only way we are going to be able to avoid working over there (or working over here for their wages) is to continue to innovate so they can't catch up. Now, that is a pretty tall requirement, but it is the way of the world.
Incidentally Dave "It pains me to see new graduates struggling to find jobs after 4 or sometimes 5 years of study (which was my case since I went to a school where co-op was mandatory)."
(1) Why does society have to provide employment for someone in their chosen profession? Does the student not have a responsibility to choose a discipline that has suitable vacancies? My friends who did History of Art at university are not working as Art Historians, and I somehow doubt they expected to.
(2) We are going to need 200 engineers in the next two years. Do you think we'll get /any/ applications from your graduates? I doubt it. We'll try and recruit locally, and then go overseas, as usual. It has to be said we prefer to cherry-pick and get people with 3 years experience or more, but that is not a rule.
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
You could always get an MBA, formally move into management and assist in the outsourcing process
Regards,
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
While some engineers who find their jobs outsourced may be able to transition into fields like construction, I think that many will not, and it would be best to keep an open mind and consider jobs which are completely outside engineering.
I know of one electrical engineer who was unable to find employment after completing his Ph.D. and ended up teaching high school physics. Another Ph.D. left his job (because his wife was not happy in the city they were located) to move across country and manage a doughnut shop.
Both of these cases occurred before outsourcing was a major issue. Maybe these engineers were "ahead of the curve" since their jobs cannot be exported.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
corus
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
be a new boom industry coming.
I'm tired of these &^%$ economists saying just wait till
companies reinvest the money they are making on outsourcing
into new high tech industries designed in the US.
Just because it has happened before don't make it so now.
Why should one expect corporations with big bank accounts
to start new ventures because they have spare cash.
They won't do this. They will sit on it until something
profitable comes allong.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_12/b3875614.htm
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Why should they pour their money into Western R&D when they can invest in Asian R&D for a fraction of the cost?
The UK tank industry is currently on its knees and will disappear altogether in a few years. Hundreds of years of accumulated knowledge and skills will be lost forever. When it’s gone it’s gone!
I’m sure we will see a mini boom in the short term but the general trend will be downwards until our leaders realise what they are losing. I hope they see it before it’s too late.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
It's been put forth that economic and social disparities exist between the delveloped and devolping nations of the world; and that these disparities are allowing multi-national companies to export jobs from the devloped to the developing nations: hence, engineering is going overseas.
There is work being done by the Organisation for Economic Co-Operation and Development (OECD) to lobby International Financial Institutions, Multilateral Development Banks (like World Bank and InterAmerican Bank), and Export Credit Agencies to converge the environmental and social requirements that these institutions do business under.
These institutions control the money that allow multi-national companies to do business and support private sector projects in developing countries. Many of the surveys and reports that OECD has put together on these institutions have not been made public, but it has been made known that many of these institutions have little or no environmental and social requirements. OECD, along with the financial institutions that do implement environmental and social responsibility in their business practices, are tryinng to force open the eyes of those that do not.
The following is a link to some of this information:
http://www.oecd.org/department/0,2688,en_2649_34181_1_1_1_1_1,00.html
The goal is a global level playing field for all to do business on.
Mabn
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
This is another link to an article that I think summarizes globalization very well. It does a good job of examining the flaws and pointing a direction for the future. It's actually the best I've seen.
http://www.spectacle.org/0701/globalisation.html
Mabn
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P79592.asp
What do you think of this?
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
due to outsourcing with no reasoning or data to back it up.
You know the unemployment numbers for march come out
on friday. Expect more damage control articles.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Thanks for the link, the article was very interesting but seemed to neglect to address, in depth, the loss of manufacturing and engineering jobs.
Losses in IT of course have been significant but I not sure if the IT jobs account for the major damage to our economy.
I strongly believe manufacturing, engineering, lumber, steel, fisheries etc. have, in the past, been the backbone of our economy. Unfortunately the above-mentioned industries have failed horribly in America in recent years and probably will not return. It would be fortunate if we could get some of the IT jobs back at least that is something positive.
My hope is that major manufacturing returns to America --- but I really doubt that it will happen.
Regards,
ietech
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Suppose we look at "US, UK, or any other industrialised nation as we would a single manufacturing company, the micro.
A company starts with a new product. We are familiar with product life cycles. Development through to boom sales, market leader status, then cut-throat competition, right through to end of life planning.
No company survives as a single product company.
The best companies have new products under devlopment all the time. As each product reaches its end of life, other products are at different stages in their life cycle.
Somewhere there is part of the engineering team doing cosmetic make-overs on an old and tired product to milk all they can out of it while somewhere else another team is ironing bugs out of prototypes of the next product.
Products start out life not quite right.
If they are unique, then they will be made right in the first few years and during that time marketing will get a better handle on things because now they have real market data and not just wishes and "value judgments" to go by. The product will be refined.
Probably the development team will move to the next new product, some addittional skills will be hired. Some of the skills will move to product maintenance and look after the product during its life.
Soon the unique status will go. Some of the people will move to competitors. Competitors don't have to pioneer the market or develop the necessary skills, they are going to come after the skills your company has developed and they will target your market.
They get a shorter time to market and they will bring fesh ideas.
A "Me-Too" product requires some compelling technical or commercial advantage to get a share of that market, though sometimes, just by being a biger company they can take market share without these advantages for a whole varietty of reasons. One thing, these products have to be right when they hit the market, or maybe they skip the high-margin niche-market and go for the market your company doesn't seem to know is there. They'll grab that and come back for the niche-market sector later when you're not looking.
After a while, every man and his dog is making this product, the skills are everywhere (you really do fulfill managemenst dream that no one is indispensible) and prices get cut to the bone; manufacturing moves overseas.
If it is a smart, well managed company that looks after its skills base, looks after its ideas men and knows where the market is, then it can afford to be philosophical because there are a whole string of new products in the pipeline.
See, the problem is that sooner or later, everyone can make a steam engine or a car. The smart companies are well managed and don't spill tears over the inevitable, and they don't go down in flames trying to live off one product well beyond its useful life. They have it sussed, they have growth through more investment in R&D in new skills, in new products, in new idea and new technologies, in marketing and sales. They are switched on, they are on the ball.
On the macro side of things it's the same.
You have to look at the management and see if they can cut the mustard.
Did they take care of the skills base?
Did they look after all the tools they need to suceed?
Can they plan beyond next wednesday? do they have to worry about being re-elected? Do they have their focus on the country or on their retirement, the lecture ciruit, the autobiography, directorships of all those companies that are going down the pan, being president of the EU or merging the US Canad and Mexico into one great big industrial super economy? or something else?
Industries are like products, they come and they go. Sooner or later they go where labour is cheap, taxes low, and where someone put some effort into providing the necessaru skills. What is important is what the guys at home are doing about the next industry?
The reason we notice this stuff is the life cycles are coming down. Where once a product could survive 40 years, 10 is good. We are not talking about a job or a skill you will get to use for your whole working life, it won't be needed. Again, i aks, if you have the brains and the talent, shouldn't re-training recognise the need to re-direct those skills? In evry company i have worked for, and some have been absolute dogs, even they have some budget for on the job training or for special training. What is government doing? In any industrialised country?
JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
_______ is the mother of invention ???
The missing word of course is necessity.
What we are seeing now in industry is the saturation of
necessity. The acid test of a succesful product is not one
that is purchased just once by early adopters or the
curious but a product that is so usefull to everyday life
that if the old one dies an individual is likely to
re-purchase.
We are running out of such things to make.
The last great product that defied this logic is the
personal computer. It was perfectly reasonable to assume
that people would not buy them for home use beyond the
initial curiosity stage because there is no need for them
in the home. However the internet and digital imaging changed the game and created applications for computers in
the home.
On another level they satisfied the human need to
communicate with others. Ditto for cell phones.
What blue sky product can you imagine that will fill a
fundamental human need that is not allready in a commodity
status ??
There are some things to come I am sure but I do not think
the pace of invention is sustainable.
As another hypothetical situation. What if automated manufacturing became so effecient that no significant
population was needed to create the goods. Say it could be
done with 0.01% of the population. How does this scenario
work out in the long run if people do not contribute to
the creation of the items they need on a daily basis. How
does wealth and buying power get transferred among the
99.99% not involved.
I fear that there is a compassionate solution to this
problem and a market solution. Which will be chosen.
Just food for though not dire predictions.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
I agree that the US and UK need to be coming up with new and better products to be globally competitive.
What I'm worried about is that the UK isn't doing this and this reflects in the pitiful UK R&D expenditure.
So if we're not investing much in R&D and we can't compete with India and China on price, what will happen?
I think it's already happened in the UK and we are now a nation of salesmen and shopkeepers relying on imported goods to survive.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Politicians have their uses, but I'm not sure what they are.
2dye4, i am reminded of a great physicist who, at the beinning of the 20th century said "there will be no new physics, everything major is already known" or words to that effect. (I'm sure someone will help me out with who and exactly what was said. I know one our members has the quote from IBM boss that there is a possible market for 4 PCs. I am very wary of make absolutits statements of this sort.
You cite the PC, but mobile phones are the biggest boom product currently then we have the whole arena of personal portable entertainment systems and we haven't even gotten to satellite telephones. These are slowly making a revival as newer technology helps.
Who would have thought the Walkman would have such a future?
What is the next big boon? don't know but on past evidence someone will think of something.
JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
give us some tools to make new unforseen advances.
My concern stems from the onslaught of propaganda from the
last 5 years or so concerning up and coming products that
as I see it fall into two categories.
60% Stuff that sounds gee wiz but you really would not
want to buy after some though.
Internet conected toasters.
Home robots.
Many others
30% Things that sound good but have insurmountable tech
problems associated with mass utilization.
In short to 90% of the future is BS.
Don't believe me. Go back 5 years and read any number
of magazines about the new creations due out in 3 years.
This says to me that big business is struggling to find
things to fill the R&D pipeline with.
As far as satellite phones. I don't want one. A cell phone
works allmost everywhere. Osama might buy one.
There is much personal portable entertainment allready out
there. There will be incremental improvements but I don't
see anything impacting the economy.
One last note.
Everything changes. Even endless prosperity.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
I see a few references to electronics. Cell phones, Walkmen, PC's and the like.
Why should any consumer product be engineered or manufactured in the US, UK or any other "developed" nation?
Why should any corporation put in the R&D effort and $$$ to create a new product when "reverse engineering" the competition and having the clones made in China is much less risky?
Manufacturing has been moving out of the US for more than 30 years. Does it really suprise anyone that engineering jobs and IT jobs are following suit? The vast majority of my TA's in college over 20 years ago were foreign students. People are people the world over. Math and science obviously were not invented in a nation that's only a couple of hundred years old.
The part that is amazing to me is the efficiency of our current shipping methods and means of communication. There was a time when only large manufacturers and employers could effectively outsource their wares. Widgets made by the millions and such. Today, even 5 man shops compete against companies half way around the world. Only international shipping charges and delays and the odd communication breakdown keeps domestic shops ahead of offshore competitors represented through domestic sales agents. I suspect the offshore shops will improve their abilities in these areas as time goes on.
I suppose I'll continue in manufacturing. I enjoy it. Programming would have been a good second career, but I don't see a future there, either. That leaves civil service or medicine, IMO. Civil service won't pay my bills, and I hate needles. Technology seems to have replaced the need for many draftsmen, engineers and machinists in the US. Now I know how a farmer feels.
I expect the next wave in this country will be to lower our barriers to migrant workers and companies. Producing cheaper widgets for our consumers has been behind the outsourcing drive. I hear complaints that lead me to believe that we will soon see "migrant" construction contractors and trucking firms. Shouldn't building construction and shipping costs also be lowered by the use of offshore labor? Couldn't their employers provide them with temporary housing on site while in the US on assignment? Farmers do this. Seems like a logical progression to me. I suppose any industry could benefit from a transient, low cost workforce.
Just stirring the pot...
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
But, the sad fact is these American (European also) companies will most likely be greeted by the corrupt leaders of those countries. Only spreading the wealth to only a few. Do people really think the prosperity will spread to everyone or at least to almost everyone? I don’t see the Walton family sharing their wealth to those factory workers in India, Mexico etc. etc. Not even to their minimum wage workers here in the US. Wait, weren’t they in the Worlds richest people (for how many years straight…). Oh, and CEO pay are at all time high – no surprise there.
I wish I win the next super lotto drawing…Whoever coined “survival of the fittest” was probably a rich folk, coz he didn’t want you to know that it is the“survival of the greediest.” Really!!!
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Could the US utilize migrant workers at a lower labor rate than minimum wage, as a method of producing cheaper products in this country?
Said manufacturing plants would be supported by low wage migrant workers and Americans could continue to work there as engineers at their normal labor rates.
Certainly such a condition would probably lead to revolt over time, but I was just wondering about that. It wouldn't exactly be right to pay migrants a much lower wage and of course the incentive for them to work in the US wouldn't be as great if they were only earning a fraction more than what they would earn in their home country such as Mexico.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Quote, "Could the US utilize migrant workers at a lower labor rate than minimum wage, as a method of producing cheaper products in this country?"
Certainly, we already do this with agriculture as I mentioned in the post above. A few laws may need to be passed to spread the concept to other industries, but I don't see this as a major impediment. Both political parties support free trade and this is just an expansion of that concept.
Quote, "Said manufacturing plants would be supported by low wage migrant workers and Americans could continue to work there as engineers at their normal labor rates."
Why on earth would we allow engineers to be overcompensated? Obviously, there are competent engineers available in the migrant worker's homelands that could be employed cheaper than the US engineers. The added benefit would be that the engineers and workers would not have a language barrier.
No, ideally we would want to minimize the number of overcompensated US citizens. They would need to be multi-lingual and would most likely deal with governmental issues, upper echelon management and human resources (both here and in the migrant worker's homeland).
The basic tradeoff here would be shipping costs and import tarriffs against somewhat higher wages, taxes and regulatory costs. But hey, then the automakers could finally make a decent profit AND lower the price of their product.
Because we all know that the price of the product is linked to the cost of manufacture, right?
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
No body stirs the pot better than you.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Seriously, I enjoy a good debate as much as the next guy. I try to build these arguments using existing logic or expanding on it. I'll leave it to others to tear them apart. Hopefully, they'll keep us thinking.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
"funnelguy, I think it is important every now and then to re-examine our basic beliefs. After all, why should society be interested in maintaining engineer's salaries at a high level? Just because a question makes us uncomfortable is no reason not to ask it. In fact, that might indicate it's a question that needs to be answered."
If you extend that argument (taken to an extreme) to any profession, none would have any greater worth relative to another (true communism?). What incentive is there to do anything at that point? Salary is a way of keeping score of "relative worth" either to society or to a company. The big difference with outsourcing is with going to countries where the baseline societal costs are lower. An engineer in India likely makes a higher salary than an unskilled laborer. The same is likely true in any other country. However, due to the baseline societal cost of living overall, it costs less to do things there. Given time, those costs will rise and the jobs will move on elsewhere. The likely spot next will be the African continent provided countries there can become and remain politically stable.
Regards,
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
I couldn't agree more.
I proposed a question a few months back, in the original thread; "How many engineers have lost their job overseas." I received one reply and was told to "check back in six months."
Looks like whining to me also. For a group of professionals that seem to be so smart, constantly comparing themselves to Doctors and lawyers, they don't seem to have a firm grasp of supply and demand.
Nature will take its course, and the business world will adjust accordingly. The profit margins will continue to rise, and the bonus schedules for those that are in executive management will also rise. That's why people go into business, that's why they start companies; to make money and then more money. If you don't like it, tough noggie, that's the world you live in, we call it reality.
I can only think about all the whining the railroad industry did when the highway system came in, I remember all the whining about Japan taking over the world and "doing to the USA industrially what they could not do militarily.” It all gets pretty old after a while.
America is full of over consumption and excess. We super size everything, eat too much, drink too much and yes, goof off too much. We almost never sacrifice and have become so spoiled that we whine like children as soon as a challenge comes our way.
If you are a true engineer, and see a problem, fix it. Shut up and fix it. If you think your job is in jeopardy, fix it; do something to make yourself useful; do something to make yourself marketable. Start your own business and be a leader, instead of a whining follower.
We are all affected. We run an iron foundry here, and China has become a firm competitive foe. All of our competition is making parts for less overseas. We adjusted our business strategy to compete and have managed to maintain the jobs of 150 people. We had to lay off 50 people, but we have managed to retain more. We didn’t whine and complain about the business we lost. We adjusted and rebalanced, we used our brains to stay in business… I suggest you whiners do the same.
No one owes you a thing, that ain't the American way.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
I must congratulate you on your entrepreneurship. Facing competition from China is tough. they have now started arm twisting Indian foundries. They have stopped supplying foundry grade coke for the cupolas,as a result the coke prices have shot up by 300%. Also they are perpetually hungry for raw materials,iron ore mine owners have grown rich over night and the local steel plants are starving for it. I am told that they have imported 2 bn$ worth of steel scrap from US this year. Every Chinese resident in US is a business representative for steel scrap sourcing. The cost of scrap in US has shot up from 80$/ton to 300$/ton. Yet they sell castings back to US at 800$/ton. This is truly baffling. There are issues connected with this pricing which go beyond the limits of this forum,hence I shall not discuss.
I too have an alloy steel foundry and have been severely affected by the steep rise in raw material costs,without appreciable increase in sales cost.
RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
Refering back into these threads this concept should not be a surprise. The progrm also recomended that all engineers should adopt a lifetime learning plan to remain current and on top of their professions. Something also advocated within these threads.
A last thought (from me) is that we should consider that the transfer of technology is not simply through education. Formal education provides only a part of an engineers training and skills set. The rest is learned on the job. This means that there is an inherent restriction on the technology transfer rate. This is self-evident once considered. Taken together, we again refer to the need to focus on innovation and the honing and development of leading edge skills. For the rest, the lower your education or the simpler your skill set or due to the lack of career learning, don't expect that your job will be "protected" by the natural forces and do not expect it to be protected by legislation.
JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
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