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What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?
8

What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

(OP)
We are an extrusion company looking to upgrade our current CAD system (AutoCAD 2000/MDT4).  At this point it comes down to Solidworks 2004 or the Inventor Series.  We have extrusion profile drawings that are 100% 2D (and will NEVER need to be 3D).  We draw the cross section of the extrusion, dimension it, and BOOM a production drawing is created.

My question is this...what are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?  Not drawing generation, but straight, 100%, 2D drawing capabilities?  With the Inventor series, AutoCAD 2004 is included, so that's easy to answer, but if I had to draw a 2D shape and dimension it in SWX, how easy is it?  and are there polyline capabilities in SWX, as we would also need the area of the 2D shape.

Please help!  I'd like to have SWX in here, but it's an uphill battle at this point.

thanks,
moto

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

What's nice about SW is you do not draw in 2D, but actually create the extrusion in 3D then drag and drop onto the drawing and it draws the 2D you want. The extrusion part can be saved as many different file types and sent to machinery.

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

Straight 2D 'drawing' in SWX is comparable to that of Inventor... namely, not great.  The tools in SWX (and Inventor) are meant to be used for parametric 3D modeling and work very well there, but straight 2D is more burdensome (in both SWX, and IV).

We have been is a similar situation in the past and here is what we did:
1.) Get SWX
2.) Keep your copy of Acad around for legacy stuff that does not need to be converted to SWX.  No need for Acad subscription or updates.
3.) ALL new stuff gets modeled and drawn in SWX.  If you want some new "2D" extrusion profiles, just model the shape with a 1" thickness or so.  Then just make a drawing showing the profile.  This gives you the parametric power of SWX, without the need for Acad.
4.) Eventually, you may decide having all of your profiles in SWX format would be beneficial.  Thus, switch your acad stuff over to SWX on an as needed basis.

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

If you have no need for 3D files, what is wrong with your current CAD program (AutoCAD 2000), and what has led you to believe that SolidWorks would be a good upgrade path?

The 2D capabilities in SolidWorks by itself is very poor.  But this is because SolidWorks was designed as a 3D CAD tool, not as a 2D CAD tool.  In all solid modelers (including Inventor), you define a 2D sketch first, then extrude/sweep/revolve that into a 3D shape.  This 3D shape is then converted to a 2D representation for drawing output.

Like the old addage goes, "Use the right tool for the right job."  I could probablly field dress a boar with fingernail clippers, but it would be a PITA and take a looong time.

Ray Reynolds
"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

(OP)
Thanks for the replies!  I guess I should have given a little more background...

I actually use Mechanical Desktop 4 for fabrication tooling design.  The other engineer uses AutoCAD 2000 for punch (die set) design.  We have two drafters that use AutoCAD 2000 for production drawings (NOT details of our designs, we engineers do our own drafting).  The need for [the upgrade] is a product of the other engineer making a fairly costly error (IMHO because of the use of 2D).  So...we are looking into upgrading to either 4 seats of Inventor, 4 seats of Solidworks, or 2 seats of AutoCAD and 2 seats of Solidworks.  The last option has about a 5% chance of being chosen, it's basically all IV or all SWX.  I am basically trying to justify going to SWX for the engineers, but I don't think the boss wants to keep legacy software for the drafters.  He told me that it may be better to go with the Autodesk product since all of our work up to this point is DWG, even if we are not chosing the better software.  I don't know what to think, I'm getting confused, I'm done for now!

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

SWX can open DWG files with ease. Send this thread to your boss so he can get facts/ideas from others besides yourself. That's what I did and it worked.

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

Just because Autocad is dwg, doesn't mean Inventor reads the dwg format any better than Solidworks. Often I've heard that Solidworks reads and writes dwg better than IV does.

Your best bet is to evaluate both.

Your extrusion profiles could be easily done in 3D and documented in the 2d module. You would have the parametrics and configurations which blow Acad away in capability. You should be able to read in your existing profiles with little trouble.

You can caluclate area with the section property tool, just select the profile, no need for polylines.

Jason Capriotti
ThyssenKrupp Elevator

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

2
If you are going to use SW for tooling modelling (or Inventor for that matter) you might want to model a "standard length" of 3D extrusion and as someone put it "throw" the end view on a drawing.  It would only take a few seconds longer.  (BTW: Just suggesting an abitrary "standard length" for CAD purposes.)

Then you could do a lot of things real easily.  You could design similar shaped extrusions of differing size automatically using design tables - and the drawings could also be automatic.  Then you could design some of your dies and tooling in-context using the extrusion models.  This could then be at least semi-automated also. Plus by doing this you have total integration of your data, thus avoiding manual errors.

Or not.... just a thought.  The 3D world can have some hidden advantages over flatland depending on your total needs.

I was - and he did. So at least I didn't get coal.....
OK, OK, It's a reference to my holiday sig. "Be naughty - Save Santa a trip..."

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

2
Motophile,

I am a former SWX user, now using IV 8.  The case your boss made about sticking with ADesk products for the dwg file translation doesn't hold water.  SWX hands down translated .dwg files better than does IV 8.  There are massive amounts of problems people are having sending IV drawings to ACad for drafting.  

A second thing I would say is that the capabilities of both are similar...each has it's own advantages/disadvantages.  Many users say that the IV GUI is more intuitive...I personally disagree with this but "to each thine own".

The best way to see is to get a demo of both packages and start by going through the tutorials so you understand the concept.  Then start modelling some of your parts, tools, fixtures, and see which one is more comfortable for you.


I personally long for the SWX days, but for now I'd settle for a computer set up to run either.

On that note...both programs are resource intensive...you cannot effectively run either on a box that has been runnning ACAD for 3-5 years....You need horsepower...1.5GHZ processor or more, 1 gig of ram, and a High end video card...preferably Nvidia Quadro series.

HTH,

Alan M. Etzkorn  
Product Engineer
Nixon Tool Co.
www.nixontool.com

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

I agree with MechEng13 (aka Alan) 100%!

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

2
Dear Motophile;

Whether you decide to use Inventor or Solidworks you will still have to commit yourself to a different way of working with drawings than you do now.

My best freind uses Inventor 8 to design progressive dies and thinks it's wonderful, translation problems notwihstanding. He can do interference checks, see punch die clearances and even animate entire dies to check for proper operation. But he has devoted a lot of time and energy to learning how to use the software properly. It works for him.

I use solidworks 2004 and do quite a bit of work using customers legacy autocad drawings from version 13 thru 2000. There is absolutely no problem importing these drawings into Solidworks and modifying them.

Version 2004 has incorporated many user requested features such as rotate, scale and move commands that are directly related to their 2D Autocad counterparts. You wont find polylines but I think the power of parametric sketches alone will make you happy. You also wont have to worry about dimstyles and scale factors as much. So much that you had to adjust manually in autocad is now done automatically.

The important thing to bear in mind is that a significant investment in time and money is required to properly use the software. The cost of the licences is only half of what you might expect to spend in total. The 4-5 day training provided by the vendors is in no way sufficient to properly prepare you to import all your legacy 2D work and make use of it in either Inventor or Solidworks.

Try bringing in 1 seat of Solidworks or Inventor as a pilot program. Do the drawing conversions on some of your drawings and get a decent vendor who is willing to work the bugs out. It will take several months. Be prepared for autocad users to complain, howl and moan. At the end of the succesfully documented trial move decisevely to total conversion to the desired software. Get rid of autocad and desktop products so no one can go back to using them.

The are great benefits to 3D software but you do have to work hard to make sure they are realized.

Best Regards

Adrian Dunevein
aaadrafting.com

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

(OP)
Thanks for all of the help!  I've got some info to take upstars now.

Adrian,
It's funny...AutoCAD users complain, howl, and moan.  I still get the 2D'ers doing the same when ever I talk about them moving to 3D.  (I'm the only one that uses it here)

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

excuse me for butting in, but 2D ACAD user that complain, howl, and moan about 3D are not real CAD users and will never get any better than they are. Sorry, just my 2 cents.

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

ctopher,

Had to give you a star for that one.  My last job had guys like that.  Refused to believe that 3d could do for them what 2d was doing, CADKey in this case.  When I started there, the department had over 50 gages that had been requested by Quality to design and have built.  A year and a half later we averaged 2 open gage requests at any given time.  I was doing most of them in SWX and just flying with them.  Doing exactly what he said he couldn't see swx being able to do.

Alan M. Etzkorn  
Product Engineer
Nixon Tool Co.
www.nixontool.com

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

Sounds like some of you are not happy with the Drawings in SW. I can understand that. But what I saw this weekend on SW05 (Which I'm not sure if I can Comment on or not So till I know, I won't be giving specifics) Drawings in SW05 I think are going to be awesome and I don't see a reason for someone not to use SW as there 2D tool too.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
http://www.3dvisiontech.com
http://www.scottjbaugh.com

FAQ731-376

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

(OP)
Please keep in mind, I was asking about the real 2D drawing capabilities of Solidworks (the same type of work most of us started doing with AutoCAD a long time ago).  I realize that 3D programs have "2D" detailing capability, but that's not what I'm after.  The main question will be "why do I need to extrude the 2D geometry when it's the 2D geometry that I need".  THAT will be the hard sell for those who don't understand how the software works.

This is a very complex situation, as it is not easy for software companies, whose sales are based on "migrating to 3D", to offer their help in a truly 2D realm.

Either way, I WANT NEW SOFTWARE!!!! [sorry]

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

Maybe pencil/paper is the way to go...it's cheaper.

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

I think that all the disparaging remarks here about 2D are unfounded and uncalled for, guys.  Motophile was very upfront about what he meant by 2D (and why) and obviously understands very well that he was referring to good old flatland and not 2D drafting of 3D objects.  Granted we have given him some ideas which may change his basis for only requiring 2D.  But based on the more limited set of tools, techniques and capabilities he was aware of at the start of this thread, his assessment of only needing 2D was valid.

BTW:  There are still applications where old fashioned 2D is a valid choice (not too many I agree).  And a good 2D drafting CAD system is definitely better than paper and pencil for a host of reasons other than the pencil or keyboard pushing.

So let's not take what look like cheap shots when people ask valid question and have applied good logical thought to them to the best of their current ability.  Especially when they are asking us to help educate them and fill in the additional information they are unaware of.

Having said that, when people ask dumb (I mean really dumb) and biased questions based on totally emotional observations, well I can't blame anyone for getting a bit outspoken.....

I was - and he did. So at least I didn't get coal.....
OK, OK, It's a reference to my holiday sig. "Be naughty - Save Santa a trip..."

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

Good point JNR.  There are times I wish I was using ACAD again for things that end up being hogs in SWX, but with our applications, I wouldn't trade.

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

I've been working with 3D CAD from more than 10 years (OH NO!!! Is telling us that again!), starting with Pro/E, and now with SW.

BUT... and there's allways a but, there are simple drawings, seckthes, schematics and studies that would be more difficult and a waste of time and resourses if done in 3D. For those cases we use AutoCad.

And if you are really doing exclusively 2D (and I bet there are many companies in this situation) there is no point in using 3D.

Regards

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

Well Motophile if 2D is what you want then why don't you stay with AutoCAD?

The reason you have to extrude the sketch is to make it a 3D model. The reason you want to make it a 3D model is mostly because that's the way we think. I don't sit around and think how I want to design a 2D part. I think of it in 3D, but when I need a 2D drawing that's no problem because I can take my 3D model that's in my mind and spin it to make my 2D drawing to fit. SW role is to make this process easier. In SW you build your idea in 3D and you can draft it in 2D. What doesn't make sense here? Why don't you find this to be easier and faster?

I'm sorry, but I understand this logic really well and it makes alot of sense to me (always has since college). So I have a hard time understanding your logic when you ask "why do I need to extrude a sketch?" but I never used AutoCAD (thank god) I did use Computer Vision and it was mainly a 2D tool. But I still thought and designed in 3D whether or not I was working on a 2D tool. I could only build my design in 2D because of the tool with a combination of 2D lines, arcs and thought, which took twice a long. SW makes sense to me and fits my needs to a tee. If you don't think 3D, then I guess you should stay with ACAD. But you would be the first person I have ever met that thinks in that way. - No Offence.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
http://www.3dvisiontech.com
http://www.scottjbaugh.com

FAQ731-376

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

I have a good reason for wanting 3D over a simple 2D profile... you can't run FEA on a 2D profile.  Something like this would be a great benefit to your customers that are wanting you to design custom extrusions.

Ray Reynolds
"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

I agree with Scott 110%. 3D is the way to go and also has many benefits that 2D designers don't realize.

1. Calculated weights on a new design...(No Problem)
2. 2D drawings......(it's a snap)
3. exporting 3D part models for machining.........
   (great,programing is easy)
4. New design configuration from the exsisting model....
   (about a 10 min job)

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

Sorry, I locked up on my reply to this thread and didn't finish what I was saying.

Anyway......

I consider myself as a old "war bird" in the aerospace field (15+ years) and spent time detailing on drawing boards, detailing and designing on CATIA (yuck!) and can't believe where this CAD technology is going! It's wonderful!
Every time I use to log into CATIA I saw a 3D axis system and told myself I will never be able to design in 3D. I WAS WRONG! Now I say to myself, how did I ever draw in 2D! All in all, change is hard for everyone, but you have to give it a shot! If you and your company don't change the way you do things, you'll be out of business before you know it from guys like me.

Getting back to the main topic....
I did beta testing on Inventor R6 and SW2003 and would choose SW2003 over Inventor. There was a huge problem bringing legacy 2D data from MDT/Autocad over to Inventor but not the case in Solidworks. So beware...

Regards,

Colin

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

(OP)
OK, first off, thanks for all of the comments.  I read my original post, and I was very vague.  As I said in a later post, I understand how parametric modeling, 2D drawing creation and the whole 3D design works.

macPT - I think you've got it.  The 2 drafters are exclusively 2D.  We are looking to upgrade all of our CAD software and ,as I was told, "we may go with the Inventor series, because AutoCAD is included, even if Solidworks may be the better software".  So basically, the engineers get no say because this decision is centered around the needs of the 2D'ers.  How screwed up is that?!?  THAT is why I asked about the 2D capabilities of SWX.

SBaugh - I appreciate the tutorial, and I do understand it.  However, I appologize for being naive in regards to Solidworks, next time I will know the answer before I ask the question.

MadMango - Unfortunately, we don't "design" the extrusions, that's more legal trouble than it's worth.

Please let this thread go, I can plainly see it's caused a lot of heartache.  Anyway, thanks for all of your help.

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

Motophile,

I would not say heartache.  Most of the people I have met using 3d softwares become very passionate about one or the other for their own reasons.  I myself would love to be able to be working with SWKS again...but at this point that is not in the equaiton.  So I am doing everything I can to learn as much about IV as I can.

Which ever way you go, for what your company does, IV and SWX should be able to do your designs.  Your job will be to become the most proficient user of the tool that you are supplied by your company.  Whether it be SWX or IV.  Both are capable softwares with their own sets of problems.  Both have your top gun users that spend time on the Forums, here and other places...utilize this knowledge and when you increase yours remember the help you got and be willing to help other newbies.

3D modeling programs are tools...but the users become passionate about them.

Use the tools you have to the best of your abilities.

Alan M. Etzkorn  
Product Engineer
Nixon Tool Co.
www.nixontool.com

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

Motophile,

One last thing before we drop it...

"we may go with the Inventor series, because AutoCAD is included, even if Solidworks may be the better software".

You might inform them that Inventor doesn't bring in DWG's nearly as well as SW does. IMO it's more of a ploy to get you to use IV because after all it is made by the same company. Unfortunatly IV doesn't bring DWG's in that well (at least the information that I have been seeing lately) You should or they should (2D'ers) fully test both packages before they buy you or give you some crap software to use. I'll bet you that IV won't bring in DWG better than SW will. I'll also bet that SW will out run IV as well, in both 2D and 3D. I know you menitoned that "Better software" above. But this IV and AutoCAD thing IMO is a ploy to bring users like you in to the dark side . To be sure you don't get screwed in the long run... test them out and compare that's the only logical answer.

the better software will prevail.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
http://www.3dvisiontech.com
http://www.scottjbaugh.com

FAQ731-376

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

I apologize, I did not mean to be rude. I was just trying to make the point that if your not going to go 3D, you might as well stay with ACAD or go with pencil/paper.
Good luck with whatever route you take.

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

One last shot.  I started out in CAD in december 1979 - FULLY 3D.  My first CAD job was I a complex mechanism (kind of a double over-center toggle four bar link with central bell crank - and everything was on compound angles!!) and some complex surface cuts and offsets.  It was the horizontal stabilizer seal mechanisms on the Boeing 757.  Then I wrote some programs to optimize and cylce it.  So if anyone is Mr. 3D it's me.  I have never really used 2D systems very much.  However there are uses for flat drafting.  Old style 3D systems with wire frame, maybe surface and not such good associative multi view drafting could do good 2D drafting.  Modern ones do not seem to because the emphasis in solid modellers is different.  But say for sake of arguement our friend here only needed the extrusion profile for catalogs and determining the die profile.  Why would he then necessarily need to do anything in 3D?  After all the extrusions he makes are arbitrary length - could even be considered pretty much infinite it length - and so have no real 3D model per-se - so not much need there.  I can see the arguement here, even though for the other purposes I do believe the 3D would in fact be better for him. My point is that there are still 2D applications.

I was - and he did. So at least I didn't get coal.....
OK, OK, It's a reference to my holiday sig. "Be naughty - Save Santa a trip..."

RE: What are the 2D capabilities of SWX 2004?

Hello Mr.3D! Agree with you 100%.

Regards

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