×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Cost of Drafting Services
2

Cost of Drafting Services

Cost of Drafting Services

(OP)
So far I have always done my own drafting (ACAD 2004) but I wondered how common it is for engineers to use a drafting service and what kind of prices you pay.  Is it by the hour (risky perhaps) or by the sheet?  Do you get a fixed price or just an estimate?  Is this something you do frequently or only when completely swamped with work?  Does using a draftsman help you save your clients money?  Appreciate any insights.

Thanks
DPA



RE: Cost of Drafting Services

We contracted drafting services out after we retired/relocated/reassigned many of our drafting technicians during a merger... we paid around $40/hr plus mileage, expenses...

This was about 6 years ago and work was for internal use only...  I am assuming that the new plant management has let the contract expire without renewal...

I now work for a small engineering company -- all of the prints done in our department are done by us (no drafters or drafting technicians) -- not sure that in our circumstances we would save money using them...

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

(OP)
Thanks Pablo02.  I was kind of thinking that myself but had no actual experience to base it on.

DPA

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

dpa -- I should explain out that our piping department uses both in house drafters and contract drafters... my area isn't as intense as the piping and that's the reason we do it ourselves...

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

I have used contract drafting when I am swamped and it is problematic.  I pay by the hour and the drafters only want to rack up hours, disregrad my instructions and then expect me to pay for useless work.  I pay and then look elsewhere.

I am trying to train one, but it is a slow process.

The problem is the lack of professionalism in the drafters I use.  They telecommute and do not ask when questions when they should.

Ofcourse I could hire someone for less full time or train a recent engineering graduate but I am not sure the I would earn enough more to justify the hassle.
  


Clifford H Laubstein
FL PE 58662

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

I'm an EIT and do some drafting on the side for an engineer and charge about $100 for a 24x36 septic system/plot plan.  This includes digitizing, adding notes and details and sometimes filling in missing grading, dimensions, etc.  This rate is based on lots say 1-2 acres.  Larger lots I may charge a little more due to additional digitizing required.  If electronic base mapping is available I may charge a little less.  I think this is a fair rate schedule in that it provides the engineer with a known price and gives me incentive to get it done quickly.  Sometimes I make $30-40 per hour, other times $15-20 per hour.  I usually will do minor revision for free, but if he has made a design error that causes me an hour or more of work, I may charge a little.  This is where it helps being an engineer myself.

Bottom line... the best way to work with a draftsman is to agree to a lump sum price.  This method may require slightly more time up front, but seems to be well worth it in the long run.  Good luck.... I know a good draftsman if you need one.

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

(OP)
Thanks gibfrog and ndpw.  It looks like using a draftsman may be largely a matter of luck.  Maybe after a few bad experiences a guy might know what to look for.  Everyone's answers have been enlightening.  $100 sounds like a pretty good bargain.

Thanks,
DPA

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

I hire out all my CAD drafting.  The two firms I use are both fast and accurate and they have many years of experiance.  I usually try to settle on a "Not to Exceed" price for the drafting and both firms charge $35/hr.  One firm is drafting only and they do work for a number of architects, engineers and builders in the area.  The other firm is an architectural firm I work with and when they are slow I try to send them some of my work to keep their CAD draftsman working.  

If I have to estimate drafting costs for a project without input from the drafting firm, I base it on my past experiance with them and the cost of past projects.  I estimate the cost two ways.  First, how many days I think it will take to draft the job at $35 x 8 = $280/day/draftsman.  Secondly, I think through how many pages I expect in the drawing set at $500 - $750 per page, depending on complexity. I then use a Low-High range in working out my final project budget for the job.

Rates depend a lot on where you are and how busy the firms might be and on complexity of the work.

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

(OP)
Thanks jheidt2543,

   I have noticed in looking over other forums that you have a lot of good sound advice with details that are useful and specific and this one is no exception.  Glad you saw this one.  Your estimating technique will come in very handy.

Thanks,
DPA

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

dpa,

Thanks for the nice comment.  The nice thing about these forums is that you get to hear how others address the same problems you are wrestling with.  The system I outlined about works for me, but then for a larger firm or larger projects, some other method might work better.  It is just one idea to consider.

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

In the past we have contracted out drafting in UK at £250 (GBP) per sheet ( for rebar detailing). We are now moving our contracted out drafting to India for a third of the UK price.


RE: Cost of Drafting Services

My attitude is that any engineer you hire should be fluent in AutoCAD, and my experience has been that every engineer under 35 is.  Perhaps you should consider hiring an EIT and training him/her.  This will get you a drafter who, if a recent grad, will probably know more about CAD than you AND as much as most  Drafting Subcontractors).  This will also get you a person in-house who can instantly help you with design legwork.

Whether subbing it out or training a drafter in-house, I feel in this day of CAD, the value added by a person who just draws pictures without design input/ability to logically check work, is very, very little.  This has been my experience with temp and sub drafters; they will draw all your markups perfectly, even if you have made a careless or conceptual error.  If you can't afford an EIT, I should add that the two most valuable and capable drafters in my are simply high school grads.  I know if they draft something they have not simply copied a drawing.  The design makes sense (plan, profile, details and tables all coincide with design calcs).  This is something which (again, only from my experience) you will never get from an outside drafting sub.

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

Bris - as they say in Indonesia, hati hati (beware).  Are  you hiring them for just "drafting" or design drafting??

It seems a lot like you are all going to getting design/drafting services.  This is okay for some, but do you want your experienced staff sitting in front of a board - oops, computer screen, making it just right? or do you want him doing the hard conceptual work and ensuring that various components match.  I've recently seen a lot of great looking drawings, but kerbside offset of the bridge is at 7m from centreline of dual carriageway but the carriageway is at 2.5m offset!!  Now, if you have a "structural" drafter do the bridge and a "road" drafter doing the road - well, . . .  Details, Details, Details - and these can only be done by the guys who know the "big" picture - and so I think today . . . . .

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

I have to agree with BigH.  I've seen some really nice looking CAD drawings that just didn't convey the information required.  I've recently had the opportunity to see some of the old hand lettered, ink on linen drawings from the 1900 - 1910 years.  Yes, it was a different time and the world was at a slower pace, BUT those drawings conveyed information - all of it - to the field. It would be great training for any CAD drafter to look at some of the old drawings, the details and layout schemes.  They should be exposed to more than one way of drawing.  In fact the draftsmen should be getting into the field on the projects they draw, just to see what the physical product looks like in person.

Personally, I've always thought the real advantage to CAD was the use of standard, cut & paste details and the speed in making changes.  You still have to design in the same, thoughtful way.

That's my nickel!

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

I have to agree with BigH and jheidt2543, as an owner’s representative, I see a lot of very bad drawings done on CAD.  Some examples:  a road curb drawn through a power pole (no note to relocate the pole), silt fence shown on the up hill side of an excavation, lettering and notes placed on top of other lettering and notes, etc.  I know that layers are a wonderful thing, but someone, sometime must look at the finished product and confirm that all of the information is shown and that you can read it.  

Sorry all, but this happens to be a sore subject with me at the moment.

To all, please keep in mind that if you are just paying a person to put lines on a page, then that is all you are likely to get.  On the other hand, if you expect a person to interpret what the design has sketched and to detail that design, and put it on the page; then you need to pay that person for the difference.  A lower price per page or per hours does NOT always mean a lower cost project.

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

My friend jheidt2543 - another history buff, eh?  Years ago I was doing research on the Ogden Point Piers in Victoria British Columbia and I checked all sorts of the Engineering Journals of the time - Institue of Engineers Canada (name may be wrong) - but the journals from 1910-1920,etc had full drawing pullouts in them - damn they were beautiful - I would have loved to lifted a couple of hydro-power dam drawings and walked out - didn't, but . . .  

Our company always did hand lettering - at least in the era I enjoyed - why?   IT HAS SOUL!   This may not mean much to some, but the CAD Drawings don't have the same feel - the same love and attention - you can't see the blood (read that eraser blotches) on a CAD drawing than on an old fashioned hand lettered one.  Call me an ol' codger but I love soulful drawings!!  

CAD is good if you've a lot of changes to make - so why not use Architectural fonts??????

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

Ah, the days when engineers wore "engineer boots" in the field and in the office!  

Yes, I too have often been tempeted to purloin one of the old hand lettered, ink on linen drawings.  I seen a few I would have loved to have framed as artwork.  But, alas, Sr. Mary Ann would have rolled over in her grave.

I have a set of engineering text books by Hool and Kinne that have the fold out design drawings included with them.  They actually come in handy when dealing with some of these old mill style buildings.  The details are very similar.

I wouldn't be too quick to give up on CAD however, just, as you say, make it better with more details, more dimension strings that actually add up across the page and use the fonts that look like hand lettering.

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

I feel old - As a young trainee engineer I started on the drawing board drawing in ink on linen - Yes you made sure of the engineering and made sure the drawing conveyed as much information as possible. If you got it wrong it was difficult to put right. If you got it totally wrong you could always wash out the linen and use it for a duster.

To BigH

I hate to say this but with the demise of technician qualifications in UK drafting standards have fallen to a very poor level. Many of the people driving the CAD machines have no practical experience and I am often find that I am working with draftsmen who can't read a drawing. Standards in the third world are now overtaking the UK.

Brian

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

We had some wonderful draftsmen at our geotechnical office in Toronto - many many years drawing some great works.  This one guy was also "experienced" at watercolouring stratigraphic sections!

One other thing on drawings to back up GeoPaveTraffic's comments - I, too, have seen drawings where a new bridge offset didn't match the incoming road's offset from centerline - where the bridge's abutment is 2m higher than its existing twin and there is only a 8m median! - where the road kerbs don't line up with the structural parapet wall.  All in the name of keeping the "road" design team separate from the "structure" team.

Best to all for the SuperBowl Party!  Pats or Panthers???  Probably Pats - they seem to have the knack and streak this year!

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

25 FEBRUARY 2004

SUBJECT:    SORRY DRAFTSMEN

REFERENCE;    

EDUCATION: INDUSTRIAL ARTS ENGINEERING

TITLES: DETAILER, LAYOUT, DESIGNER, CHIEF DRAFTSMEN, CHIEF ENGINEER

MEDIA: INDIA INK ON LINED, INDIA INK ON VELLUM, CARBON PENCIL ON VELLUM,

      CARBON PENCIL ON MOLAR, INDIA INK ON MOLAR, MOLAR PENCIL ON MOLAR,

      MACAD (MCDONALD AIRCRAFT) AUTO CAD, MAC DRAFT (APPLE)


OBSERVATIONS:

1.0    ALL RESPONDS DID NOT SHOW AN ENGINEER’S EDUCATION AND PROFESSIONAL THINKING.

2.0    EVERY HORROR STORY WAS NOTED.

3.0    YOU ALL HAVE BEEN TRAINED TO........

    3.1 STATE THE PROBLEM

    3.2 STATE KNOWN ITEMS CAUSING THE PROBLEM

    3.3 REVISE, ELIMINATE OR CREATE A SOLUTION IN RELATION TO CAUSING ELEMENTS

4.0    THE PROBLEM YOU ALL ADDRESSED HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR YEARS.

    4.1    ME ENGINEER

        YOU DRAFTSMEN.

    4.2    ANY BODY CAN MAKE A DRAWING.

    4.3    YOU PAY FOR WHAT YOU GET.

    4.4    WHEN THE CAD EQUIPMENT CAME ALONG THE FOLLOWING BECAME THE GOSPEL

        4.4.1    ANYONE CAN LEARN TO USE CAD AND BE PROFICIENT IN 8 WEEKS.

            4.4.1.1    TRUE STATEMENT. BUT.....THAT MEANS JUST WHAT IT SAYS. HOW TO TURN IT ON AND USE IT.



5.1    ONE CAN NOT LEARN WHAT DRAFTING IS AND HOW TO IT ON CAD. IT TAKES A MINIMUM OF ONE (1) YEAR OF SCHOOLING.

5.2    IF ONE DOES NOT KNOWN HOW TO BUILD WHAT EVER THE DRAWING IS SUPPOSE TO TELL, THEN HOW CAN YOU MAKE THE LINES, CICLRES, ARCHS, NOTES ETC. TO TELL THE STORY.

5.3    THE ENGINEERS MUST GO BACK TO THE SCHOOLS AND TELL THEM, THEY CAN NOT AFFORD TO NOT SPEND THE MONEY IN TEACHING HOW THINGS ARE MADE OR BUILT. ALL THE SCIENCE AND MATH IN  CONJUNCTION WITH THE HOW TO ONLY RESULTS IN PRODUCTS. ONE CAN NOT LIVE WITHOUT THE OTHER.

5.4    NOT ONE YOU, KNEW IT ALL WHEN YOU ENTERED PROFESSIONAL PRACTICE, SOME ONE POISHED YOU.

5.5    IT IS GOING TO COST YOU, BUT YOU MUST FIGURE IT INTO YOUR COST TO TRAIN THE DRAFTSMEN.


6.0    COULD GO ON, BUT NOW YOU ALL ARE SAYING THIS OLD GOAT IS LIVING IN A DREAM WORLD. WE CAN NOT AFFORD IT OR HAVE THE TIME.



CLEARY*

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

Why the concern over the maximum in this area?

If you used an employee draftsman you would simply manage the production of the drawing but it would take as long as it takes and the salary cost would be what the hours expended multiplied by the salary cost works out to be.

If contracted out why not manage the production and let the cost be the time multiplied by the hourly rate?

The difficulty is in managing the work of someone not on your site and not under your direct control. However do you watch over the employee draftsman’s shoulder every minute?  No you trust the employee. The same rule should apply to the contract draftsman. You should only hire contractors that you trust and have confidence in that they will do the work diligently and only bill you for the hours actually expended.

That is much the same as what our clients do when they hire us on an hourly rate.

As to my experience in this area, I have paid between $15 and $50 per hour. The $50 was the better deal since I got a better final product, was able to have the drawings plotted at that cost, and had a draftsman who was actually thinking about what was being drawn and helped with suggestions on the presentation. The $15 draft required essentially a full pencil and paper drawing before it could be converted to CAD.

I stopped using contracted drafting services because of geography. I live about a 1-hour drive from a major city where the good drafting services are located and it is simpler for me to do my own drafting and save not only the cost of drafting services but the time to travel to their office or use courier services. (My drafting needs are slight and I have the time to do it myself.)

22004

Please do not type with your cap lock turned on. Its harder to read and is considered SHOUTING.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

RDK:

I checked out your website...stole some of your jokes (I credited you, so I don't THINK its plagerism).

I notice you are in Manitoba.  This might explain how you get quality drafting (design, planning and CAD) for $50.  No less than $75 in PA, USA, more in major metro areas.

Although you make an excellent point about cost relating to bid price, so in the end if you get what you pay for, it is irrelevant who earns what per task-hour.  But the trouble is:  CAD has changed all the rules.  Drafting used to be blindly drawing what is handed to you, engineering used to be all design and calcs.  At least in the land development area, CAD wiped that out.  I draft about 1/3 of my time, our good planners (I refuse to call them drafters, because they are not) spend as much time laying out roads, utility grading, checking for conflicts in 3D as they draw.

This leads to a huge degree of scope differential amoung Planners and those who are desperately trying to remain old-fashioned Drafters.  This differential is barely manageable in-house and (only from my experience) totally unmanageable with subs.

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

I thought I would give an update on outsourcing our drafting to India - we now have a team of four draftsmen working in India at  a rate of $10 per hour. They provide engineering support as necessary at $20 per hour. Progress is approximatly 12 hours ($120)  per drawing. We load up onto the web site and they download. Obviously we have to colour scan sketches and correction mark ups. So far it is working well.

Brian

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

BRIS,

Can you tell us how you found the draftsmen you use.  I'm not asking who you use, but how you orginally made the connection, how you negotiated the pay scale, etc.

What kind of turn around time do you get?  Do you have a variety of work you send there or is it pretty much the same type and details?  How about size and complexity of the projects?  Have you shipped out a long duration project?
What do you do about confidentiality?  Some clients require a confidential aggreement prior to starting work or do you just figure since they are in India, you don't really have to worry about it?

Just wondering.  I use local firms that I can walk in on and see my drawing on their CAD machine.  

RE: Cost of Drafting Services

Just two cents worth here ... okay maybe a dime's worth ...

First, you should have a general idea of how long a drafting job should take so paying by the hour is not always a bad idea. If you are hiring someone for the first time, do it by project and ask them after it's all said and done how long it took and tell them why. You have to establish a rapport or you'll never get the quality you want. All a freelancer has going for them is their work and their reputation. You can see what their work is like ... and after working once with them you can see if they take pride in their work or if they are just "trying to rack up hours." Those are the ones that will not make it independently.

Second, one of your best resources for drafters is people who have left your firm in good standing or, if you outsourced it, their firm in good standing. If you know the drafter's work, you know what to expect. If you can't get that info from the firm, if the person is freelancing it, you can do a search from the name on the plans. You can also ask at your local blueprint shop because independent contractors will utilize them from time to time. Leave your business card there. When you are getting permits etc. leave your card or just talk up your needs. Again ... it's all about rapport and networking.

Third, anyone worth their salt is going to have good references and letters of recommendation. Not just from former employers but also from clients and officials they've had to work with. And they should be able to show you examples so you can see if their style is just lines or if they include everything you ever wanted the guys in the field to know. Most will have examples of both, as some employers do and some don't want that information on there. The good ones I know have been out in the field so they have an understanding of what is going on there. Flexibility is what you're looking for.

In the end, hiring a reputable draftsperson will save you money. If you pay per project or by the hour, you still don't have to pay benefits or for down time. You can upload to the independent contractor's web site or use FedEx and charge the FedEx back to your client and it will still come out less overall.

And while outsourcing to other countries is fine (although I personally am against it) there are lots of people in your country who will do the job for the same or slightly more money. When you've just been laid off, you don't want to do it for less but when you've been laid off for a while or are just establishing yourself independently, you'll take work at lower rates.

Once that person is established, I guarantee there will always be consideration for a good client who was with them at the beginning. The first job you get at $15/hour should be just as good as the most recent job at $50/hour. You want someone who is proud of their work, not of how much money they can squeeze out of you.

Bottom line ... if the draftsperson is good and honest and you are specific as to what you want, you will wonder why you didn't hire an independent contractor before. Try it out before you need to actually utilize it (like in a non-critical overflow situation). The hardest part, IMO, is the lack of "hovering" you'll have to do :)

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources