Cost of Drafting Services
Cost of Drafting Services
(OP)
So far I have always done my own drafting (ACAD 2004) but I wondered how common it is for engineers to use a drafting service and what kind of prices you pay. Is it by the hour (risky perhaps) or by the sheet? Do you get a fixed price or just an estimate? Is this something you do frequently or only when completely swamped with work? Does using a draftsman help you save your clients money? Appreciate any insights.
Thanks
DPA
Thanks
DPA





RE: Cost of Drafting Services
This was about 6 years ago and work was for internal use only... I am assuming that the new plant management has let the contract expire without renewal...
I now work for a small engineering company -- all of the prints done in our department are done by us (no drafters or drafting technicians) -- not sure that in our circumstances we would save money using them...
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
DPA
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
I am trying to train one, but it is a slow process.
The problem is the lack of professionalism in the drafters I use. They telecommute and do not ask when questions when they should.
Ofcourse I could hire someone for less full time or train a recent engineering graduate but I am not sure the I would earn enough more to justify the hassle.
Clifford H Laubstein
FL PE 58662
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
Bottom line... the best way to work with a draftsman is to agree to a lump sum price. This method may require slightly more time up front, but seems to be well worth it in the long run. Good luck.... I know a good draftsman if you need one.
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
Thanks,
DPA
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
If I have to estimate drafting costs for a project without input from the drafting firm, I base it on my past experiance with them and the cost of past projects. I estimate the cost two ways. First, how many days I think it will take to draft the job at $35 x 8 = $280/day/draftsman. Secondly, I think through how many pages I expect in the drawing set at $500 - $750 per page, depending on complexity. I then use a Low-High range in working out my final project budget for the job.
Rates depend a lot on where you are and how busy the firms might be and on complexity of the work.
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
I have noticed in looking over other forums that you have a lot of good sound advice with details that are useful and specific and this one is no exception. Glad you saw this one. Your estimating technique will come in very handy.
Thanks,
DPA
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
Thanks for the nice comment. The nice thing about these forums is that you get to hear how others address the same problems you are wrestling with. The system I outlined about works for me, but then for a larger firm or larger projects, some other method might work better. It is just one idea to consider.
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
Whether subbing it out or training a drafter in-house, I feel in this day of CAD, the value added by a person who just draws pictures without design input/ability to logically check work, is very, very little. This has been my experience with temp and sub drafters; they will draw all your markups perfectly, even if you have made a careless or conceptual error. If you can't afford an EIT, I should add that the two most valuable and capable drafters in my are simply high school grads. I know if they draft something they have not simply copied a drawing. The design makes sense (plan, profile, details and tables all coincide with design calcs). This is something which (again, only from my experience) you will never get from an outside drafting sub.
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
It seems a lot like you are all going to getting design/drafting services. This is okay for some, but do you want your experienced staff sitting in front of a board - oops, computer screen, making it just right? or do you want him doing the hard conceptual work and ensuring that various components match. I've recently seen a lot of great looking drawings, but kerbside offset of the bridge is at 7m from centreline of dual carriageway but the carriageway is at 2.5m offset!! Now, if you have a "structural" drafter do the bridge and a "road" drafter doing the road - well, . . . Details, Details, Details - and these can only be done by the guys who know the "big" picture - and so I think today . . . . .
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
Personally, I've always thought the real advantage to CAD was the use of standard, cut & paste details and the speed in making changes. You still have to design in the same, thoughtful way.
That's my nickel!
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
Sorry all, but this happens to be a sore subject with me at the moment.
To all, please keep in mind that if you are just paying a person to put lines on a page, then that is all you are likely to get. On the other hand, if you expect a person to interpret what the design has sketched and to detail that design, and put it on the page; then you need to pay that person for the difference. A lower price per page or per hours does NOT always mean a lower cost project.
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
Our company always did hand lettering - at least in the era I enjoyed - why? IT HAS SOUL! This may not mean much to some, but the CAD Drawings don't have the same feel - the same love and attention - you can't see the blood (read that eraser blotches) on a CAD drawing than on an old fashioned hand lettered one. Call me an ol' codger but I love soulful drawings!!
CAD is good if you've a lot of changes to make - so why not use Architectural fonts??????
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
Yes, I too have often been tempeted to purloin one of the old hand lettered, ink on linen drawings. I seen a few I would have loved to have framed as artwork. But, alas, Sr. Mary Ann would have rolled over in her grave.
I have a set of engineering text books by Hool and Kinne that have the fold out design drawings included with them. They actually come in handy when dealing with some of these old mill style buildings. The details are very similar.
I wouldn't be too quick to give up on CAD however, just, as you say, make it better with more details, more dimension strings that actually add up across the page and use the fonts that look like hand lettering.
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
To BigH
I hate to say this but with the demise of technician qualifications in UK drafting standards have fallen to a very poor level. Many of the people driving the CAD machines have no practical experience and I am often find that I am working with draftsmen who can't read a drawing. Standards in the third world are now overtaking the UK.
Brian
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
One other thing on drawings to back up GeoPaveTraffic's comments
Best to all for the SuperBowl Party! Pats or Panthers??? Probably Pats - they seem to have the knack and streak this year!
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
SUBJECT: SORRY DRAFTSMEN
REFERENCE;
EDUCATION: INDUSTRIAL ARTS ENGINEERING
TITLES: DETAILER, LAYOUT, DESIGNER, CHIEF DRAFTSMEN, CHIEF ENGINEER
MEDIA: INDIA INK ON LINED, INDIA INK ON VELLUM, CARBON PENCIL ON VELLUM,
CARBON PENCIL ON MOLAR, INDIA INK ON MOLAR, MOLAR PENCIL ON MOLAR,
MACAD (MCDONALD AIRCRAFT) AUTO CAD, MAC DRAFT (APPLE)
OBSERVATIONS:
1.0 ALL RESPONDS DID NOT SHOW AN ENGINEER’S EDUCATION AND PROFESSIONAL THINKING.
2.0 EVERY HORROR STORY WAS NOTED.
3.0 YOU ALL HAVE BEEN TRAINED TO........
3.1 STATE THE PROBLEM
3.2 STATE KNOWN ITEMS CAUSING THE PROBLEM
3.3 REVISE, ELIMINATE OR CREATE A SOLUTION IN RELATION TO CAUSING ELEMENTS
4.0 THE PROBLEM YOU ALL ADDRESSED HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR YEARS.
4.1 ME ENGINEER
YOU DRAFTSMEN.
4.2 ANY BODY CAN MAKE A DRAWING.
4.3 YOU PAY FOR WHAT YOU GET.
4.4 WHEN THE CAD EQUIPMENT CAME ALONG THE FOLLOWING BECAME THE GOSPEL
4.4.1 ANYONE CAN LEARN TO USE CAD AND BE PROFICIENT IN 8 WEEKS.
4.4.1.1 TRUE STATEMENT. BUT.....THAT MEANS JUST WHAT IT SAYS. HOW TO TURN IT ON AND USE IT.
5.1 ONE CAN NOT LEARN WHAT DRAFTING IS AND HOW TO IT ON CAD. IT TAKES A MINIMUM OF ONE (1) YEAR OF SCHOOLING.
5.2 IF ONE DOES NOT KNOWN HOW TO BUILD WHAT EVER THE DRAWING IS SUPPOSE TO TELL, THEN HOW CAN YOU MAKE THE LINES, CICLRES, ARCHS, NOTES ETC. TO TELL THE STORY.
5.3 THE ENGINEERS MUST GO BACK TO THE SCHOOLS AND TELL THEM, THEY CAN NOT AFFORD TO NOT SPEND THE MONEY IN TEACHING HOW THINGS ARE MADE OR BUILT. ALL THE SCIENCE AND MATH IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE HOW TO ONLY RESULTS IN PRODUCTS. ONE CAN NOT LIVE WITHOUT THE OTHER.
5.4 NOT ONE YOU, KNEW IT ALL WHEN YOU ENTERED PROFESSIONAL PRACTICE, SOME ONE POISHED YOU.
5.5 IT IS GOING TO COST YOU, BUT YOU MUST FIGURE IT INTO YOUR COST TO TRAIN THE DRAFTSMEN.
6.0 COULD GO ON, BUT NOW YOU ALL ARE SAYING THIS OLD GOAT IS LIVING IN A DREAM WORLD. WE CAN NOT AFFORD IT OR HAVE THE TIME.
CLEARY*
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
If you used an employee draftsman you would simply manage the production of the drawing but it would take as long as it takes and the salary cost would be what the hours expended multiplied by the salary cost works out to be.
If contracted out why not manage the production and let the cost be the time multiplied by the hourly rate?
The difficulty is in managing the work of someone not on your site and not under your direct control. However do you watch over the employee draftsman’s shoulder every minute? No you trust the employee. The same rule should apply to the contract draftsman. You should only hire contractors that you trust and have confidence in that they will do the work diligently and only bill you for the hours actually expended.
That is much the same as what our clients do when they hire us on an hourly rate.
As to my experience in this area, I have paid between $15 and $50 per hour. The $50 was the better deal since I got a better final product, was able to have the drawings plotted at that cost, and had a draftsman who was actually thinking about what was being drawn and helped with suggestions on the presentation. The $15 draft required essentially a full pencil and paper drawing before it could be converted to CAD.
I stopped using contracted drafting services because of geography. I live about a 1-hour drive from a major city where the good drafting services are located and it is simpler for me to do my own drafting and save not only the cost of drafting services but the time to travel to their office or use courier services. (My drafting needs are slight and I have the time to do it myself.)
22004
Please do not type with your cap lock turned on. Its harder to read and is considered SHOUTING.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
I checked out your website...stole some of your jokes (I credited you, so I don't THINK its plagerism).
I notice you are in Manitoba. This might explain how you get quality drafting (design, planning and CAD) for $50. No less than $75 in PA, USA, more in major metro areas.
Although you make an excellent point about cost relating to bid price, so in the end if you get what you pay for, it is irrelevant who earns what per task-hour. But the trouble is: CAD has changed all the rules. Drafting used to be blindly drawing what is handed to you, engineering used to be all design and calcs. At least in the land development area, CAD wiped that out. I draft about 1/3 of my time, our good planners (I refuse to call them drafters, because they are not) spend as much time laying out roads, utility grading, checking for conflicts in 3D as they draw.
This leads to a huge degree of scope differential amoung Planners and those who are desperately trying to remain old-fashioned Drafters. This differential is barely manageable in-house and (only from my experience) totally unmanageable with subs.
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
Brian
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
Can you tell us how you found the draftsmen you use. I'm not asking who you use, but how you orginally made the connection, how you negotiated the pay scale, etc.
What kind of turn around time do you get? Do you have a variety of work you send there or is it pretty much the same type and details? How about size and complexity of the projects? Have you shipped out a long duration project?
What do you do about confidentiality? Some clients require a confidential aggreement prior to starting work or do you just figure since they are in India, you don't really have to worry about it?
Just wondering. I use local firms that I can walk in on and see my drawing on their CAD machine.
RE: Cost of Drafting Services
First, you should have a general idea of how long a drafting job should take so paying by the hour is not always a bad idea. If you are hiring someone for the first time, do it by project and ask them after it's all said and done how long it took and tell them why. You have to establish a rapport or you'll never get the quality you want. All a freelancer has going for them is their work and their reputation. You can see what their work is like ... and after working once with them you can see if they take pride in their work or if they are just "trying to rack up hours." Those are the ones that will not make it independently.
Second, one of your best resources for drafters is people who have left your firm in good standing or, if you outsourced it, their firm in good standing. If you know the drafter's work, you know what to expect. If you can't get that info from the firm, if the person is freelancing it, you can do a search from the name on the plans. You can also ask at your local blueprint shop because independent contractors will utilize them from time to time. Leave your business card there. When you are getting permits etc. leave your card or just talk up your needs. Again ... it's all about rapport and networking.
Third, anyone worth their salt is going to have good references and letters of recommendation. Not just from former employers but also from clients and officials they've had to work with. And they should be able to show you examples so you can see if their style is just lines or if they include everything you ever wanted the guys in the field to know. Most will have examples of both, as some employers do and some don't want that information on there. The good ones I know have been out in the field so they have an understanding of what is going on there. Flexibility is what you're looking for.
In the end, hiring a reputable draftsperson will save you money. If you pay per project or by the hour, you still don't have to pay benefits or for down time. You can upload to the independent contractor's web site or use FedEx and charge the FedEx back to your client and it will still come out less overall.
And while outsourcing to other countries is fine (although I personally am against it) there are lots of people in your country who will do the job for the same or slightly more money. When you've just been laid off, you don't want to do it for less but when you've been laid off for a while or are just establishing yourself independently, you'll take work at lower rates.
Once that person is established, I guarantee there will always be consideration for a good client who was with them at the beginning. The first job you get at $15/hour should be just as good as the most recent job at $50/hour. You want someone who is proud of their work, not of how much money they can squeeze out of you.
Bottom line ... if the draftsperson is good and honest and you are specific as to what you want, you will wonder why you didn't hire an independent contractor before. Try it out before you need to actually utilize it (like in a non-critical overflow situation). The hardest part, IMO, is the lack of "hovering" you'll have to do :)