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How ethical is it to give and receive gifts
4

How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

(OP)
In India the festive season is just over and it will begin soon all over the western world. This is the time when in the corporate world there is hectic giving and receiving of gifts. In exchangs business favors are returned.How appropriate is it in today's society to give and receive gifts. I request the members to give their opininon Personally I am against it and do not encourage in the business circles that I interact with.

This being the festive season I hope it may be on top of everyone's mind.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts


If it is truely a "gift", it should be given with nothing asked in return.  I give small gifts to certain associates (I violate no company policies in doing so!), but they are given with the understanding that I appreciate them for who they are, not what they can do for me.

I entirely understand your attitde; Giving people stuff is a delicate line to walk, as bribery is indeed unethical.  However, I have friends / business partners that deserve to be shown that I am truely greatful for all they give me (in non-business values) during a workyear.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

(OP)
One way of expressing your sincere sentiments and showing your colleagues that you care and that they matter is by giving small gifts. These are innocent and truly wonderful.

 But in the business circles this sharing  is carried to extreme and obscene levels. It is this that I am speaking about and as a profession of engineers we must try and curb it if not eliminate.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

Any gift given in order to solicit business favours is unethical.  It does not matter how big or small.  Gifts given for appreciation or just generosity between business collegues are acceptable but how do you prove that to a Securities Investigator?  In many companies the illusion of kickbacks is considered just as danagerous as the actual activity and they set policy that way (Not allowed to go to lunch with a supplier for example).

General practice in the companies I have worked for recently is that such practices are forbidden and all gifts shall be reported and/or returned.

In practice the best thing to do is to give gifts that have no monetary value for the individual (such as a plaque or trophy) but have sentimental value.  Should you desire to send more than a card.

With coporations being the way they are these days we walk a fine line when we give gifts matter how innocent the original intention.  I know a situation where the giver gave the gift out of generosity but the receiver did not take it that way since the gift was substantial. Issues down the road resulted due to this gift and the person who gave it was eventually fired.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

Gifts can be given in the name of a person to another group.
I have recieved a couple of card that say in effect "$50 has been donated to the Salvation Army in your name, this has been done in appreciation of our professional relationship and your friendship."  
To me it means more than someone taking you to a ball game, or a fishing trip.  I am not sure it's totally ethical but I now do it for some people.  It does not have to be the Salvation Army, but a cause or charity they care about.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

It sounds like the question is really in determining the difference between a gift, a bribe, and the normal cost of business, and I think rhodie has it exactly right:  "If it is truely a "gift", it should be given with nothing asked in return.".  Nothing in return means nothing.  It is a token of appreciation and nothing more, nothing less.

If you're giving the "gift" in hopes that you'll get extra consideration on the next proposal, or get a discount, or a day off, or whatever in return, then it's not a gift.  Whether it's a bribe or the cost of doing business is, at least to me, a much tougher question.  Where do you draw the line between the unethical bribe, and the obligatory cost of business?

For example, suppose that all of your competitors are giving gifts to a prospect.  You know that those who do not provide gifts will not get the business.  Granted this is an ugly situation, but it is unethical for you to extend that "gift" simply to level the playing field?  I think not.  Is it unethical for you to extend the "gift" to tilt the playing field in your direction?  That I would consider unethical.

I know we can all come up with situations which muddy these waters to no end.

On the flip side, receiving a gift is much the same.  If you receive it understanding that nothing is expected of you in return, then you may be at fault of insulting the giver by not accepting it.  If it's being given for ulterior consideration, then accepting is probably unethical.  The one difference in this position is that you can annouce to everyone, "I'm not taking gifts, don't even try, we're not going to play that game", and shut it down before it starts.

It's easy on the extremes, unfortunately we, for the most part, live and work in the middle ground.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

One thing that our company stresses is not so much the "fact" of impropriety, but rather, the "appearance" of impropriety.  

You can receive any gift, with no strings attached, but at a later date, you decide in favor of the person who gave you the gift.  Was there quid pro quo?  How would you prove otherwise?  This is why any gift, of substantial value, no matter how innocent can throw a monkey wrench in the works.

Many of the engineers in this forum are PE's, operating their own businesses.  They cannot possibly afford to take a hit on their reputations by even the hint of possible conflict of interest or less than complete impartiality.

TTFN

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

That's very true IRstuff.  As we all know, perception is 90% of reality.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

Recently I was a at a seminar organised by a government authority. The audience were engineers and OHS professionals. I was surprised when each speaker was presented with a small gift after their talk. I assume they were not paid for their efforts, and that the gift was low-cost.

Since it was all out in the open, I thought it a rather civil and appropriate way to thank the speakers. Perhaps this is common.

Cheers,
John.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

Speakers are often given "honoraria", usually in case or check, but often as gifts.  There's apparently something impolite about "paying" speakers to speak, but certain highly-demanded speakers, such as Clinton or Bush, Sr. have reportedly published honoraria price lists, so the distinction is pretty low.

TTFN

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

I think giving small gifts is ok but there is a fine line there. It would be preferred that no gifts be given to avoid the gray area. Unfortunately, our politicians practice gift receiving more than politics in most cases. In addition, I do not see this trend disappearing anytime soon. Gift giving takes on many forms. Some of you probably remember some hoopla about a sheriffs office somewhere that disbursed confiscated money and materials amongst their employees as sort of an award. If awards such as this need to be given to get more arrests then someone should take a close look at the departments motivation.
I do know of cases where an engineer will specify a certain brand, knowing that kickbacks will be coming. I thought this was illegal. It is common practice amongst some of the big dogs of the electrical control world, although they will never admit it.
I guess I would avoid gifts (not that many have been offered, except one was a trip to Lake Tahoe) but at the same time would be very tempted to take a gift depending on the situation. In any case, gift giving is common whether we like it or not, especially in other fields.
Is it unethical? I do not know but would lean towards yes.   

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

Surely, the point is, if you are given a gift then it is impossible to prove that it did not affect a subsequent decision.

So I see it as cut and dried.

When dealing with people from other countries who habitually give small useless objects (sorry esteemed suppliers) as gifts when we first meet them, OK, it is impossible, socially to refuse them. Since my total score for these things in 12 years is a hideous desk clock, a year 2000 tie (polyester), a little wooden doll, and a keyring with a shock absorber on it, I am fairly confident that I am uncorrupted.

On the other hand oddly enough I can remember the name of each of those suppliers - so it does work to some extent.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

2
I think there is still a bit some may have to think about... :)  For example, CajunCenturion above defined apart gifts and bribes, just to rationalize a few sentences later the bribes as "cost of doing business." I'd think that in such cases, the real "cost of doing business" is to compromise one's integrity; you shouldn't underestimate that cost.

IMO it is as simple as Greg put it: any gift is a potential bribe. That's because the difference between a gift and a bribe is usually nothing that can be proven, either way (in the case of a decision by the receiver favorable for the giver).

The only thing one can do is to give or receive only gifts that are small in value -- and by small I mean negligible for the personal living circumstances of the receiver and for the conditions of the project.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

I'm reminded of the fellow who applied to the Rockefeller Institute for a grant of one million dollars. His research proposal was to test the theory that "money doesn't buy happiness".

In the same spirit of doing public good, I'm willing to test the theory that gifts compromise one's integrity. Now, I'm a highly integral person, so the gifts will need to be high quality - I'm not cheap. Any takers?

Cheers,
John.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

(OP)
Despite all these sensitivities regarding acceptance of rich gifts, the process goes on and subconsciously the receiver is indebted and is expected to make a return(modern day politics,bureaucrats, government tenders, multi national companies etc.) This form of corruption raises the expectation of family members too,who are the beneficiaries.I can cite numerous Indian examples,I do not know if it happens in other places.

A subordinate invites his boss and family for a dinner. Is it a bribe,are there any expectations from the subordinate etc a whole lot of issues arise? What should the boss do acccept the offer or politely decline?

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

With a dinner invitation we get into a gray zone, IMO. I have always worked in relatively small companies where it is common that team and company members socialise. I consider this a good thing.

OTOH you could claim that when a boss and a subordinate are friends (or more friendly than others), the boss might be compromised in case of a problem with the sub. But I think trying to prevent this in all instances goes too far. You want to be able to be friends with your coworkers.

You have to apply some common sense. If you feel that someone is trying to bribe you, if the invitation goes beyond what the personal relationship carries, decline it. I have always made it a point to try to create a personal relationship with the people I work with. Works for me.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

If you are truly friends with your coworkers (laterally and vertically) then this issue is exceedingly easy to get around.

Secret Santa anyone?  How about a Christmas lottery? Friends would not be apposed to creating a situation where there was not any grey area and gifts would not be considered bribes.

I personally never give a gift to my boss.  Usually the team pools its resources (everyone pitch in $20) and buys a selection of gifts for the boss which comes from the department.  I respect my boss and would never want to put him in a position where he would feel that my generosity was nothing but generosity or that my generosity would compromise his professional integrity.

In the business world as soon as the company name changes on the business card I would politely refuse the gift. I HAVE hurt people's feelings because of this but in all cases once I explained why and how I felt and what that gift could be potentially perceived as I never had an issue with the person.  I have turned down numerous lunches, hockey tickets (nice ones too - ones that will be years before I can afford), plaques, jackets, baseball caps as well as other misc gifts.  IMO the easiest path is to say "Hey thanks for the thought but I am afraid I cannot accept it.  However here is a place where you could donate it and some child would enjoy it.  It would mean even more to me if you could do that."

Also friends of mine from University no longer enchange gifts because some of us work in companies where this sort of gift giving could be considered collusion or bribery.  This is what I call the price of doing business ethically.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

One thing that is becoming more common is a holiday card that simply states

“In honour of this festive occasion, a donation has been made to charity in the name of my friends, clients and colleagues”

Sometimes the charity is explicitly mentioned and sometimes it is not, depends on the donor.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

I know this is an old thread, but I do have some thoughts on the subject. Some of my thoughts have been danced around, but not directly addressed.

In my first job in sales, the subject of Christmas gifts and entertainment came up. My boss at the time "being much older and wiser than me" told me that a bribe is any gift or favour that might influence ones decision in any way.

He said the best objective or motive for buying a lunch or drinks was to get to know people and to create a relaxed atmosphere were trust could be built and used as the foundation of a more co-operative working relationship, to mutual benefit. So long as that objective is adhered to, I feel it is a grey area but leading toward acceptably ethical behaviour. On such occasions you do not talk commercial business, and try to keep it social, but being technocrats, technical issues tent to be discussed as it is the common interest. That is OK so long as the motive it improved communication and trust.

Gifts that are really only useful in the office are fairly safe, things like desk top organisers, relatively cheap pens or calculators, notepads, diaries etc are all OK so long as your company logo and maybe technical information dominates them enough to make them unfashionable enough to discourage private use. These might come into the cost of doing business categories, as they do promote your companies image and awareness, but do not directly buy favours.

Gifts to the company owners is a lot easier re ethics than gifts to employees. In this case, you can only influence someone to spend their own money, rather than their bosses money. At times I have given a collection of gifts to the owner so he can distribute them to his staff as he sees fit.

Different cultures do have different customs and rules of conduct. It is arrogant to enforce your rules exclusively on someone else and there are many grey areas.

As an example, to tip a waiter in the USA is expected as part of his salary, but to tip a waiter in Germany is seen as unnecessary, as the restaurant owner pays his salary, and it is included in the price. To tip might be an attempt to get better service than the owner wants his staff to give. This extra service might be at the expense of other patrons, thereby diminishing the value of the service they already paid for.

In some poorer countries, part of the expected salary package is the bribes you can acquire and to them, it is not any different to tipping a waiter if it is a known and accepted part of package.

In Japan, it is customary to give little gifts on introduction, and I suspect the purpose is to make you feel a little obliged, but to refuse is a major insult. In this case, one option is to reciprocate with a gift of equal impact, but this is easier said than done when you do not know what to expect.

It is obviously difficult where the different parties are from very different cultures, as one persons unethical behaviour is another's good manners, or another's ethical behaviour is simply seen as bad manners.

Another way for companies to maintain the ethical standards of their country, while maintaining the standards of good conduct in the other companies country is to use a local agent. That way you are not really clean, but you are not arrogant, and yet you are one step removed from the "different practises".

I know some purchasing people who receive dozens of gifts every Christmas, and to "keep it ethical" they donate all gifts to the office Christmas party, where management can devise a method for acceptable redistribution, via door prizes etc.

End of ramble

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

pat,

While I can relate to most of your post, your comment about tipping in Germany doesn't match my experience. (I'm German, and even though I don't live there currently, I lived there the first 30 years of my life.)

The price of the goods in a restaurant include a percentage for service, which is a part of what in the US is the tip. While an additional tip is not generally expected, it is often given if the service was good.

My point here is that the notion that the tip could be something bad has never been raised in my presence there. It's not required, but it is never seen as anything negative -- not by the waiter, not by his boss, and not by other patrons.

Gerhard

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

During the holiday seasons, I don't give gifts or receive them with business associates. I almost feel like people expect them. I prefer to do it sometimes during off season, only to a select few.
Just my 2 cents.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

My company also stresses is not so much the "fact" of impropriety, but rather, the "appearance" of impropriety.  However I happily live in the "gray zone" of dinners, etc. because I fail to see how we can have meaningful, even heated discussions during work hours without some understanding of each other's personality which is gained in a non-business social setting.

Blacksmith

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

The point is that dinners together are not banned, per se.  If you went Dutch, there would no question whatsoever.

TTFN

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

While one might argue whether a $10 or $20 meal represents a sufficient "bribe,"  the fact that many of the posts cite "building personal relationships" as an outcome of such meals suggest that those who do not ply you with a meal will not get an opportunity to develop those same relationships.  

This means that the meal did, in fact, affect your ability to fairly compare two choices; one that provided you with a meal and gave you a warm and fuzzy feeling beyond the written proposal, and one that had to stand on the merits of a written proposal.

Therefore, since it did affect your decision, a priori, it was a successful bribe.

TTFN

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

I see tremendous variation in gift policies, year-round.  I go to a conference at which some attendees sometimes buy a round of golf at a nearby club for whoever's interested.  Clearly not a bribe, since anyone who knows the host is welcome to join in, but a very expensive gift, and perhaps something that might associate the host with happier vibe than their competitors.  The golf-loving government workers grit their teeth and decline.  A lot of the private sector workers accept the invitation.

Various government agencies set dollar amount limits on gifts.  For us it's $25 or "ordinary business lunch".  For others it's $2.99.  For others, they can't accept so much as a pencil with the company logo on it.  So I have a collection of ballcaps, squishy toys, mugs, and travel alarms.  On the other hand I'm not allowed to let anyone cover my airfare to visit their facility, give me a ride in their company airplane (even if we're both headed to the same place), or comp me a hotel room.  I have a friend who works for a company we do business with, and I can never accept his offers of the extra room in his hotel suite.  I've met other people who can't accept offers of a cheap breakfast.

We used to get Christmas gifts in the office here--a box of pecans, a giant chocolate bar.  Polite word was sent back to the givers that we really can't accept those, and they've stopped.

Then there's "ordinary business lunch".  A lot of us take the view that if our employers (who include the taxpaying public) think that we can be bought with a steak, then we really shouldn't be on the payroll at all, and we interpret the provision pretty loosely.  Others in the same agency won't accept lunch as a matter of principle.  If the shop foreman buys our inspector lunch on a daily basis, though, that's seen as a problem.  If the inspector comes to start expecting daily lunch, that's a bigger problem.

But the thing is, we worry about gifts and the perception thereof.  It's harder to control human relationships, and tough to say how much that should be controlled.  I go to conferences and work on committees with all kinds of people who my agency might do business with.  If we're normal human beings, after a while some of us will make friends.  Now what?  To me that's a stronger factor than any fancy dinner or round of golf.  And that's where the salesfolk are smart.  It's not so much the gifts they hand out--it's the personal relationships they build.  Good technical salespople will do what they can to make themselves your first point of contact when you have a question about their industry.  They'll be people you're glad to see when you run into each other.  And there's no way to regulate that.  Even if you could, people change roles--someone moves from private sector to public, and they need to sever their social ties from their old job?  Can one tell when someone is being friendly and when they are, in essence, prostituting themselves?

Tough stuff.

Hg

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

HgTX: "Can one tell when someone is being friendly and when they are, in essence, prostituting themselves?"

Probably the problem is not whether one is genuinely friendly or is just faking being friendly, the problem is whether this is affecting your decision to buy from him and if so, whether this is a problem.

IRstuff wrote: "Therefore, since it did affect your decision, a priori, it was a successful bribe."

Now that nice smile (whether genuine or fake) could have affected my decision, and thus it could be called a successful bribe.

But then, when deciding, we often consider something like "I have a better feeling about this vendor" or so. It's hard to tell where this comes from, and it's difficult to work without it. It's also not easy to say what the monetary value is of working with vendors or clients that you like; you can't say that this is something not to be considered, because it can actually affect your staff's well-being and your company's bottom line and thus does have a value just like the dollar values in the proposals.

So the nice smile might after all not have been a bribe, but a service...

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

gerhardf

Sorry I slightly misrepresented the tipping situation in Germany. As you describe it it sounds identical to the situation here in Australia. During my stay in Germany, I saw tipping as somewhat less common than here, and may have exaggerated to make the example more suitable to my argument.

IRstuff

Not all business is done by written proposal, and some services can be to abstract to be included in a written proposal.

When in sales and marketing, I always considered my job was to identify the customers true and perceived needs, then look at my range to try to find a fit, then recommend our product if suitable, or a competitors product if ours was not suitable. This at times involved many long discussions, and required very effective communication. I found that really getting to know the person greatly improved this communication.

Without the trust that came from really knowing someone, the conversations were constrained and guarded, as parties did not want to divulge anything that might make the other think he might have an advantage that might effect the price, or that might be passed on to the opposition.

If it took say 5 extra hours in meetings to finally get the information required to make the best recommendation, then by paying for a lunch, you saved yourself and the customer that 5 hours. Your customer might or might not, then decide to pass on the same information to your competitors as he might decide that they also need that info to make their best recommendation, or he might decide that as you provided a better service with less effort on his part, that you should properly be rewarded with the advantage you obtained from that extra service.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

You're arguing in circles.  The same lunch with a different vendor could have reaped an even better solution.  Moreover, there is no guarantee that the person you interfaced with will even stay with the project, potentially resulting in miscommunication later.

The point of ethics is to level the playing field and to minimize unfair advantages.  Because you choose to spent more time with one particular vendor, that vendor will invariably have an unfair advantage over any other vendor.

TTFN

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

Which gets back to what I brought up.  Salespeople who comes around more often without pissing anyone off will have an advantage, because they will be a known quantity, and a likeable one at that.  Standard sales technique.  It works.  Is everyone it works on unethical?

Hg

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

Not necessarily.  Ethics rules are situationally contextual.  Clearly, receiving gifts from family friends and relatives have nothing to do with ethical rules.

Business is different as are business situations.  In Japan, at least in the past, business meals were a necessary component of doing business, because it was highly driven by personal relationships.  If there is little differentiation between suppliers, then there is little harm that can come from that.

In a situation where ideas and overall program performance is critical, a deep personal relationship can swing the decision making process, particularly, if that supplier has been able to get "insider" information through that relationship.  When two engineers get together to discuss a procurement, it's nearly inevitable that some additional information heretofore undisclosed will get revealed that may give that supplier a competitive advantage.

Even the nature of the "gift" can result in different behavior.  A $10 pen dropped in the mail, as an overt gift, may simply put you on guard to avoid favoritism.  A $10 meal with an hour or so of "face" time, may likewise put you on guard, but that face time may bias you to make additional allowances that you wouldn't have made without the personal interaction.

Conversely, of course, our internal marketing classes teach us to go out to make these personal connections specifically to get "G2" and insight into the decision making process.  A happy day for us is the release of a procurement where we got in on the ground floor and influenced the specifications in our favor.  All of this has to be done without exchanging gifts or other compensation, of course.

The rules that we are supposed to adhere to are design to try and eliminate such biases, but, at the same time, our marketing strives to create those warm and fuzzies to gain some advantage.  And clearly, a supplier who has been, in the past, honest and working to your (and his) success will always get extra brownie points in any future procurement.

TTFN

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

IRstuff, what constitues a "level playing field" or an "unfair advantage"? Probably every vendor I've worked with in the past (if that was successful) has an advantage over a new vendor. Is that unfair?

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

My wife is an attorney, and has recieved tickets to ball games, gift certificates to restaraunts, and coutless
piles of cookies. She shares these with her less-visible coworkers, however this is causing much friction in her office. She put some very valuable tickets in a hat, and drew the name of the person who'd get them. She couldv'e kept them, as they were given to her personally by a client.
Anyway, Some people were not happy with the way she handled it. Another client gave her tickets to another game. She chose to go, and take a coworker who helped on one of their major projects. so everyone was asking why she didn't have a drawing for those. She's about to decline all further gifts at this point.
I have never recieved much beyond cookies and cards from my suppliers or customers, so don't have much to relate to.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

What didn't they like about drawing names from a hat??

Ballgames and hat drawings...that brings me back.  When I was in grad school, the teaching assistants were unionized (this is not the forum to discuss the merits and faults of unions), and I was a contract negotiator.  The administration (aka Management) kept trying to offer our negotiating team box seats to basketball games (in the year when our team was red hot).  We thought that was inappropriate and kept refusing.  Finally their lead negotiator walked in, threw a set of tickets on the table, and walked out.  We ended up giving them to the membership via a drawing.

Hg

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

I thought it was pretty obvious that we're talking about insider information, preferential treatment, etc., not inate abilities or better personnel/ideas/products.

TTFN

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

It is not unethical to try to earn an advantage with better service or more suitable product.

It is unethical to try to buy an advantage with a bribe.

There are grey areas, including exploiting a relationship.

It is human nature to favour those we like and/or trust. To try to ban that will be as unsuccessful as any other law or rule that tries to ban things we naturally do.

Certainly if one vendor gets a chance to improve his service over a lunch, others are entitled to the same consideration if they choose to offer.

Lunches would be a bribe if the vendor was simply tendering supply of a tightly specified commodity, but it is not a bribe if it assists in your working together, toward a better value for money specification.

To give some degree of preferential treatment to a vendor who provides a service that saves your company money is not unethical. The true test of ethics is how much preference is asked for or given vs the value of the extra service.

To give someone inside information of a commercial nature (like the competitors quote) is certainly unethical, but to give someone the necessary information so they can formulate their most suitable offer is not only ethical, but desirable.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

It's unethical if you don't do the same thing for all the potential suppliers.  

Working lunches after the procurement are less questionable.

A "working" lunch prior to making a decision essentially says that you've made a decision to work with that supplier and that any other supplier will be wasting time and money to attempt to compete.  That's unethical and rude to boot.

TTFN

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

And it it's truly information that would make any supplier's proposal better, why would you only give it to one supplier?

TTFN

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

It's a working lunch, not a monogamous marriage. You can do it with more than one person. If the person buying the lunch expects it to be an exclusive right, then it is a bribe.

I have bought many clients lunch and the decision has still gone against me, so the lunches certainly did not indicate a done deal in those cases.

A lunch after the deal is done is more likely to be a reward for the favourable decision, as there is no longer a need to determine what is really required for the best deal, at least not until next time.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

Well, my point was that there is a sometimes large grey zone with issues like "preferential treatment" and "better personnel".

What makes a differentiated treatment preferential? (I hardly ever treat two people the same.)
What makes a preferential treatment unethical? (If you have children or siblings or know families with children, you probably noticed that quite often all of them feel they got less than they deserve -- and all of them at the same time. Which they feel quite strong about, and think this is unethical.)
Which qualities in a vendor are ethical to be considered as part of him being "better personnel", and which are not? (There's a lot of grey in between him knowing the application technologies very well -- generally considered ethical -- and him offering you kickbacks from overcharged contracts -- generally considered unethical.)

So the original question still stands: What constitues a "level playing field", or an "unfair advantage"? It's easy to use such expressions, as everybody thinks he/she has a rough idea what they should mean, and everybody knows that the "level playing field" is the good guy, and the "unfair advantage" is the bad guy. But it is much more difficult to describe (other than by a few, often extreme, examples) what exactly those expressions mean, in a way that is actually helpful. They probably don't serve very well for anything except for murkying the waters.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

gerhardf

I agree it is very grey, and mostly comes down to intent, which is not a very transparent thing. There is really no such thing as a level playing field, we can only try our best to be fair and equitable.

The tangibles, like price per unit, are easy to assess. The intangibles, like confidence in ability to consistently deliver on time, or a good suggestion re technical improvement in the process, are a lot harder to assess.

IRstuff

I already said, a buyer might or might not give information to other suppliers, after they discovered it was helpful while at lunch with one supplier.

I think we are seeing the ethics differently, because we are seeing the intent and potential outcomes differently

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
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RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

I think pat has said it pretty well: in the end it's the intent that determines whether something is ethical or not.

The other questions -- whether or how much or when and how to accept favors or when something becomes an unacceptable bribe -- depend so much on society, company culture, coworkers, boss, all the other people actively or passively involved, that generalizations are probably not very helpful.

In general (here I go with a generalization :) it is probably best to talk this over with the people involved; mostly coworkers and bosses, possibly also the (or some) vendors or clients. That should give a good picture in the particular situation. After all, it doesn't help much if I think I'm fair when everybody else feels treated unfairly.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

I think you'll find that intent may be of secondary importance here.  

The laws on insider trading are such that even if you do not directly benefit or participate in a trade, you are not given the benefit of the doubt.

Likewise, you can be jailed for unintentional manslaughter.

End result is often the criteria in these situations, not intent, since it's not usually possible to gauge intent after the fact.

TTFN

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

IRstuff

I guess your American, and the laws you refer to are probably American.

In Australia we do have insider trading laws, but I have only ever heard of them being implemented when the inside knowledge is used to unfair advantage in trading stocks and bonds.

I can't speak for the rest of the world, but this is the WWW, so we really shouldn't presume our laws apply to others.

I certainly have never heard of a salesman being charged for gathering information to prepare for a quote or tender.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
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RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

What about collusion in bids? That's definitely unethical, and I'm pretty sure its illegal. Check out the unfolding  Amcor story for an Australian example.  

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

Collusion and predatory trading both are definitely illegal in Australia, the USA and the EEC.

There seems to be a major high profile prosecution here every 4 or 5 years, like Boral and CSR with building materials, ICI with Pool chemicals just from memory

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
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RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

There is a rather famous case where Boeing was barred from bidding on a contract because someone at Raytheon left some material behind and it was found by a Boeing employee.  Even though the employee turned it in and it was returned to Raytheon, the delay was deemed unacceptable and Boeing got kicked out of a multi-billion dollar competition.

TTFN

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

IRstuff, in my comment I presumed everything was done in a legal way -- as I think up to that post most posters presumed the same. Legality so far wasn't the question; it was what behavior was ethical.

Where a clear legal guideline exists, we just follow it. That's probably a consensus here. Where the law is not quite clear, usually the intent does become important -- going back to your example, in most places it is the lack of intent that distinguishes manslaughter from murder.

But most questions discussed and relevant for everyday's life  are probably far away from illegal behavior. It is not illegal to accept gifts, it is not illegal to accept invitations, it is not illegal to hand out invitations. (Even though some of this under some circumstances may disqualify you from a specific bidding, it is still not illegal. But the question whether or not it disqualifies you doesn't have a generic answer -- it depends on the specific bidding and the rules set forth for that.)

A question about collusion... is it illegal in bids for public projects, or is it also illegal in bids on the private sector?

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

from: http://www.legal-explanations.com/definitions/bribery.htm
[quote ]Bribery
n. The receiving or offering any undue reward by or to a government employees in order to influence his behavior in office and to incline him to act contrary to his duty and the known rules of honesty and integrity. Bribery is a crime and includes paying to receive a government contract, providing a building inspector with a bottle of liquor to ignore a violation or permit, or selling stock to a Congressman at a price below the current rate. Bribery also includes bribes which are issued to corporate officials in order to receive contracts or other items which may benefit their company. [/quote]

When a quid pro quo is expected from a gift, it becomes a bribe.

You can argue all you want about "intent," but if you give someone a gift, and later receive a contract from that person, do you really think you and your recipient won't at least get investigated for bribery if someone else objects to the arrangement?

TTFN

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

Our politicians are in trouble then!
They accept gifts on a regular basis with no fear of prosecution. I know two wrongs dont make a right but when you think of the politicians when your turning down your free movie tickets, it makes you think twice. It seems us engineers think more of ourselves to hold such a high regard for ethical behavior when the rest of the world will not think twice about it. We deserve a pat on the back.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

I'm not sure... The definition of bribery you posted has as one of the prime criteria "in order to influence" -- sounds very much like intent to me. Also almost all the examples cited include the word "to" between the bribe and the returned favor, which also seems to indicate a strong relationship with intent. (English is not my native language, so I may be wrong.)

The next question is that it does not talk about receiving or offering _any_ award, but "receiving or offering any _undue_ award". Which seems to make a distinction between due and undue awards -- without defining exactly which awards are undue. (I'm sure there are more detailed laws for some situations.)

So probably in order to make a move in court, an objector would have to show that the award was "undue" and that it was given/received in order to influence the behavior.

And of course this is a legal question, and as such by definition dependent on the country you're talking about. BTW, when I look up "collusion" on that site, it doesn't say anything about (il)legality of it.


But I still wonder where the sudden move to the legal question came from. I was under the impression we were talking about ethical issues (see also the title of the thread). And I continue to think that for the ethics of the question, the intent is probably the most crucial factor, if not the only one.

It may be ethical but not legal in some cases, and it may be legal but not ethical in others...

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

There is not only intent but perception.  Company policies may be built around preventing even the possible appearance of bribery or other sources of undue influence.

Hg

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

You're over analyzing the problem.  

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and smells like a duck you get fired.  

Makes little difference what your intent was.

TTFN

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

IRstuff

What you say might apply to the environment in which you work, but this site is on the WWW. That is WORLD WIDE WEB.

I think about 50% to 60% of members are from outside the USA. Also what is not allowed in a government agency is often allowed in private enterprise and even more so in family owned companies.

As gerhardf says, ethics and law are often different. This topic is ethics, and maybe perception thereof. It is certainly not ethical to slaughter millions of people, but that is what happens in some countries under some regimes at some times, and you don't have to go outside the USA to find examples if you want to go back to the Indian wars and slavery, which were both legal at the time. Few would argue they were ethical.

Regards
pat   pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

Maybe like this:

Whether it's ethical is determined by the intent.

Whether it's good for the career is determined by the perception (by others, of course).

Whether it's legal is determined by the laws (and the perception of the judge or jury, in case the legality gets challenged in court).

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

You guys got me also thinking about collusion. I'm not sure about the ethical aspect of it (again there seems to be the intent thing), but it definitely looks as if most countries consider certain forms of collusion legal and even good or necessary.

Starting from the explanation in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion it seems to me that any form of import barrier (import tax, quotas etc.) are a form of collusion -- the national industry, together with the government, "fix" the prices the consumer of the goods has to pay and don't want to leave it up to market forces.

Maybe it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and smells like a duck -- but for most goverments, it sure looks sometimes like a swan :)


It also seems to me that there's a difference between two companies or contractors get to some understanding about the value of their products or services, and an agreement between all participants in a certain market segment. So I'm not sure about the relevance of collusion for this topic.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

Small gifts given in appreciation should not be a concern.

But I have to tell this story about tipping, which is a related item:

The family gave a birthday party for an old relative in a posh Westbury, NY establishment. I understand it costed above $10,000 for about 150 attendees. The Maitre'D did a thorough job getting everything just right. I gave him a ten in appreciation.

As I was getting the coats, a big goon, the facility mgr, approached me and said "I understand you gave R. ten dollars." I said, "Yes, he did a good job, and I wanted to show my appreciation." Then the guy surprised me with the following: "We expect $100 for the Maitre'D. I strongly suggest you think about it." I said "I'm sure the other fellows have given something." "Nobody else has given anything." "I'll think about it."

My wife and I have resolved never to tip except for meals and cabs. I'm looking foreward to saving money and avoiding money grubbers.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

In US govt, we may recieve a "gift" of less than $5.00.  So, typically this will not cover lunch.  Coffee, maybe, if you're at Starbucks, or not. :)  This is pretty strict for good reasons.  

You're also not allowed to give your boss or coworker a gift unless its less than $25, and it has to be a special occasion (their birthday, for example).  These are usually the

Gifts are sometimes genuine gifts, often they come with underlying motives or intentions.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

I suspect that policy varies from agency to agency.  Some federal agencies definitely don't have a problem with accepting meals.

Interesting that they control gifts between employees, though.  That's new to me.  Anyone else run into that?

Hg

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

Its funny about the US government. The workers cant except gifts but the higher ups practice this on a daily basis. The higher ups also solicit workers for any leads on any political events they should attend to promote the current administration. We had a letter out about 7-8 months ago that ask everyone this very question.
Of course, this was due to the election.

Not sure if I am supposed to accept meals (and beverages) but I do it anyway. Its harmless in my opinion.

I agree with the employee gift thing except I dont think we can give our boss a gift.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

(OP)
A Happy New Year to Yo All,

I am glad to find that this old thread is once again active and during the festive season.


I am spending my New Year night reading this and will soon come back with my points.(maybe tomorrow morning!!)

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

(OP)
irstuff,gerhardf,patprimmer et al,

You have kept this thread live and active. I note that ultimately the onus of ethical practice is on the individual. No amount of regulating is going to avoid the grey areas which can be exploited.

It would be wiser to create an awareness among the individuals and leave the rest to their conscience. At times it may be very difficult to make a decision, but having accepted to perform ,DO IT RIGHT.

 This would go with most of us however there could be a few exceptions. There is an adage when all the five fingers in your hand are not of the same size how can one expect five different people to be similar.Dissimilarity is the way of the world or that God wanted it to be that.

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

In general, that's what we do.  We have yearly ethics classes and the expectation to be ethical.  In our line, the cost-benefit for being unethical is very poor, in any case.  Only when the stakes are absurdly high, such as in the case of the Boeing lease arrangement with the USAF and Ms. Druyan will the be big issues.

However, there are certainly plenty of cases where the line is extremely gray and easy to cross, as in the case of Boeing and its problem with Raytheon proprietary data.

TTFN

RE: How ethical is it to give and receive gifts

In one of the big companies I worked with earlier, I could never buy lunch for my boss - he can buy for me !!!  Good situation to be in, but I also had a few sub-ordinates !!!

In another country where I worked earlier, it was rude to say no to a gift - I used to come out of the situation, by accepting the gift (usually a huge pack of variety of sweets) and distributing it immediately to everybody in the office.

HVAC68

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