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Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks
11

Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

(OP)
I have a friend who is looking for good info regarding conversion of diesel engines (for trucks) to alternate fuels.  In view of the current prices of standard diesel fuel, he is considering using vegetable oil.  

Can anyone tell him
(a) what good reference sources are there?
(b) would such a fuel change require a change in
    compression ratio (to perhaps increase the air
    temperature at the time of injection)?

I have told him that we (ie the eng-tips community) should have all the knowledge that he requires.  Please do not let me down

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

2
The fuel your friend is looking for is called biodiesel.  I have never used it but have looked into it and have a co-worker who used to design diesel engines who knows a bit about it.  By all accounts it works fairly well but has two catches.  First, it jells at a higher temperature than regular diesel - important in cold areas.  And second, it apparently degrades some polymers - such as fuel line - so be sure to check that before using a lot of it as this will clog injectors.  I understand that one major trucking company is running their units on biodiesel but havn't been able to confirm this.  Further information is avialable on the web if you search "biodiesel".  Good luck.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

2
As ScottMc has already said, Biodiesel (or bio-mass derived fuels - fuels from sunflowers, soya, rape seed, linseed etc) has a bad effect on elastomers and polymers. Converting an 'old' engine to work with biodiesel will almost certainly cause any 'O' rings in the fuel system to develop leaks and some plastic parts to degrade. Plastic fuel tanks can also suffer - I have heard that the high density polyethylene tanks used for some applications can develop surface blisters as a result of the action of biodiesel.
Biodiesel fuels are methlesters (I'm no chemist) and the methanol content of the fuel can give problems when you want to store it. The methanal content will allow water to be absorbed and this will then allow bacteria to grow. I gather the water/bacteria presence then can also lead to formic acid being produced.
All in all, its just not a case of puttin a suitable biodiesel in the tank and driving off.
If you have a look at the SAE web site you'll see a good number of papers on the use of biomass diesel fuels, I think.
Outside of the USA, you'll find that there's a fair amount of interest in the use of biodiesel.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

as already has been mentioned, biodiesel reacts differently to polymers and various rubber compounds. This means in practice that when you changeover you will have to make sure that all the elastoners that come into contact with the fuel are compatible with biodiesel. In practice this means a rather costly operation of changing everything...Mercedes Benz and MAN for example have done extensive testing with biodiesel and are supplying replacement parts for various of their engine types.

There is another thing to be taken account. Since standard engine oil is designed to cope with the byproducts of combustion introduced in the oil by blowby, they are not necessarily suitable for use with a type of fuel that will produce byproducts with a different chemical nature. In practice this is accounted for by reducing the oil drain interval considerably, since no biodiesel-compatible oils are available on the market and problably will not be for the next few years unless the biodieselidea catches on.

This is actually not very likely since the cost of production is quite a bit higher then standard fuel. There are a few places in the world where actually trucks are running on biodiesel, but there it's either an experiment or the use of such a fuel is heavily subsidized for one reason or another (Germany, France).

The largest experience with biodiesel is with the manufacturers of agricultural equipment - eg John Deere. Within the farming community biodiesel is regarded as a potentially interesting "crop".

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

no this the first time i see this so kindly forward and explain the process

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

You can also run any Diesel engine pure vegetable oil, Rudolf Diesel, the inventer of the Diesel engine tried it ages ago, but it never came out big! Either mix 50/50 with Diesel or pre-heat pure oil to 70 degrees celcius before entering fuel injection for better viscosity and combustion. Also reccomended is starting on Diesel till engine is warm (3 min.?), switching to vegy-oil and before stopping, switch back to diesel for a few mins. to rinse out oil.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

(OP)
On behalf of my friend seeking info on alternate fuels for diesel engines - thankyou to all respondents.  We seem to have created a pretty useful reference here.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

from what i have read from  other tech peoples information it all seem relevent and true. A desiel engine will just about run on any old fuel such as the above vegy oils mentioned. I have herd of several different people running there desiels on used cooking oil being it vegetable or animal based product and quiet sucessfuly. But one of the problems along with seal issues is filtration. Youll probably find that youll be replacing fuel filters regularly. Also you might get stung by the local police for avoiding road tax? but its a step in the right direction for alternative fuels. hope this is relevant

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

-------------- quote -----------
The Tartrais engine was capable of running on bituminous oil, fuel oil, paraffin oil, groundnut oil, castor oil or cod liver oil.
------------ end quote ---------
http://www.psa.fr/en_psaBB0026.html

Just goes to show you can run an engine on anything. The oldschool tractors are known to run on paraffin.


-=Whittey=-

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Hi
An interseting question
Well Good old Rudolph Diesel ( the inventor)ran his demo model on peanut oil when he was demonstrating it for the first time in Germany.
 There are a couple of links you might like to look at over her in the uk ( I have no connection with them) http://www.geocities.com/vegoilcar/
However problems you might encounter are  `solidification in low temperature areas and of course the ever present fuel tax (a problem here in the UK)
A concern is that pump pressures need to be generaly higher than for normal diesel fuel so a more powerful pump is the solution.
usually a heating trace on the fuel line is a good idea especialy in   low temperature areas,  not too much of a problem here in theUK .Other points to consider are the use of a start up tank with a small amount of diesel in  then you can switch to sunflower oil .

A couple of posts raise concerns about sealing rings,
I have never had any problems with this ( so far )however general maintainance is a useful time for changing any of these.

The big advantage bio diesel is that it is renewable

there are some German companies that provide conversion kits
for automobiles http://www.elsbett.com/ http://www.goatindustries.fsnet.co.uk/

http://www.folkecenter.dk/plant-oil/plant-oil.htm
http://www.oilpress.com/

http://www.geocities.com/vwfatmobile/index.html

there have been stories in the press about farmerrs in Wales depleting the local supermarket of all their cooking oil supplies
http://pub41.bravenet.com/forum/fetch.php?id=9982145&usernum=3470269378

hope all this is of some help

Chris

 

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Not too sure on the diesel engines over in the US - but a good recipe for cheap fuel is (as used in my turbo diesel (DI) 2L 4 cyclinder)

1L part diesel (Gas station)
3L parts rapeseed vegatable oil (More power than diesel according to MIT - most other vegetable oil is on a par)
approx 50 ml of Redex (diesel additive - not required in warmer areas - 1:3 (diesel:veg oil only) mix is good to coldstart down to approx -5C).

Ensure the mixture is fully mixed (eg in the cold and pouring veg oil straight in the tank followed by a bit of diesel is NOT going to ensure complete mixing).

The "good" car makes to use are Mercs (seem to run on anything), VW's citroen and peugeot. Ford in Europe us a Lucas fuel injector with composite parts that can die a death. Not sure what is used in US.

Hope that clear things up.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Well this thread seems to be about dead but I'll post anyway.

As teddy stated earlier, journeytoforever.org is a great site to learn about the basics.

A couple of points though;

Any good biodiesel won't have any methanol in it; therefore it is not miscible with water. Although it is possible to degradation to occur, it generally takes longer than 6 months. And even then there are additives that can be used to extend the shelf life.

Any diesel engine can be run with a blend of up to 20/80 biodiesel/diesel (B20) with no modifications. Newer engines can run at B100 with no modifications and some engine manufactures are starting to extend warranties to cover the use of biodiesel.

The largest warning related to using biodiesel is that it possesses strong solvent properties. When an old vehicle starts to use biodiesel breaks up deposits left by petroleum diesel in the fuel system. This causes frequent changing of the fuel filter until the lines are cleaned out. The benefit, however, is that you’ll be left with a sparkling clean fuel system.

While straight vegetable oil can be burned in a diesel engine there are several problems related to its use. The viscosity vegetable oil is several times higher than that of diesel fuel. This causes flow problems in the fuel system as well as difficulty starting. Using regular vegetable oil also causes thickening of engine oil over time as some VO leaks past seals.

As far as cost goes, the U.S. government is in the process of passing a subsidy on biodiesel that will make it competitive with petroleum diesel. However, this sidesteps the capability of people to make biodiesel in their own backyard for as little as $0.60 per gallon.

If anyone has any questions feel free to ask. It is my name after all

Mr. Biodiesel

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

MrBiodiesel a question.

Subsidies aside, oil shale/tar sands have as a fudamental flaw that it takes more energy to extract a usable product than that product can provide.  I've seen studies that show this is true for biodiesel, and others that show its not.  This leaves me thinking that its a marginal process and accounting methods can prove it either way by how you allow for equipment operation.  Can you provide insite to this?  Does biodiesel provide a net gain in energy?  And if so, by how much?

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Reality check  ---   Bottom line

ULTIMATELY ULTIMATELY ULTIMATELY --- THE USE OF BIODIESEL MEANS WE ARE USING TOPSOIL TO RUN OUR MECHANICAL ENGINES.

CAN WE (earth life forms) AFFORD THIS ABOMINATION ?

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

ScottMC

The problem lies in the broad range of sources that can be used to create biodiesel. One of the primary reasons that the subsidy is needed is due to the feedstock. In the U.S. the most common feedstock for biodiesel is soybean oil, while in Europe it’s rapeseed oil.

The problem is that soy oil is used for much more than biodiesel. This means that any biodiesel that is made from soy has to take oil away from competing industries. As a result the price of soy oil increases, which drives up the cost of the finished biodiesel. There are plants being built now which use waste vegetable oil (WVO) as a feedstock as well as yellow grease, a by-product of animal processing facilities. Unlike soy oil these two feedstocks are classified as waste, and people normally have to pay for disposal. This means that the only cost for raw materials are those caused by transportation of the material to the processing plant.

As far as the energy question, biodiesel produces 33.5 MJ/L while diesel produces 35.5 MJ/L when burned. However, while petroleum diesel has a slightly higher energy density it takes more energy to produce. To get a liter of biodiesel you have to expend 31% of the total energy value of the fuel. But to get a liter of petroleum diesel it takes 120% of the energy value of the fuel, going back to what you said earlier. This is due to the heavy refining that is needed to separate the diesel from crude oil. The cost of petroleum diesel will also increase soon due to the requirement by the EPA that sulfur levels be reduced dramatically.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

A question here to MrBiodiesel and a comment to Herald:

Re the degradation of biodiesel - especially the rape seed derived fuel.

"Any good biodiesel won't have any methanol in it; therefore it is not miscible with water"
I an not a chemist, but while I worked on automotive projects concerning 'European' biodiesel, the 'word' was that poor storage of RME (rape methylester) could lead to the growth of organisms in the fuel due to the probable contamination of the fuel by water - this due to an affinity between the fuel and water. The worst product of the degradation was said to be formic acid. What's the bottom line on this?

Re: Engines that it's 'OK' to use biodiesel in

Earlier on in this thread I mentioned my own experiences in developing fuel systems to handle biomass derived fuels in addition to conventional diesels and parafins. Whilst I don't for one minute doubt the experience of others in terms of the ability of certain makes to accept biodiesel as a fuel, there is a certainty - if the 'diesel' vehicle fuel system was not specifically designed to cope with the long term use of biodiesel fuels then you risk some sort of damage somewhere. Fluid seals are the primary risk area as many were specified with nitrile rubber materials which have variable resistance to biodiesel - it depends what grades where specified. Few fuel system products will have had fluoro-elastomer seals specified as these are much ore costly than nitriles and 'ordinary' diesel doesn't need them.
Personally, I wouldn't trust any diesel vehicle fuel system to be 100% compatible with biodiesel unless it was specified and designed after about 1998 at the earliest.

As for Ford vehicles in Europe. There has been a mix of Bosch and Lucas CAV equipment on diesel engines here for some while. Some engines are entirely one equipment, like the 100PS turbocharged York engine in the Transit van, which was all-Lucas.

amorrison4 - what do you mean by 'using topsoil'?
While I am opposed to paying subsidies to european farmers to produce oil seed rape to be put in storage, good farm husbandry does at least keep land in culitvation.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Thanks to all for the information about biodiesel. I work with a commercial group supporting the use of biofuels & lubes in New York, and above comments summarize the primary issues facing most users. The US gov't is increasing support of biodiesel use as part of an alternative fuels mandate for large federal fleets; most current programs are subsidized by state or local governments in the form of tax benefits. While some hurdles remain, the use of biodiesel seems a more reasonable solution than the options of converting to alternative fueled engines or hybrid vehicles and the infrastructure to fuel them.

Our intention in NY is to promote B-20 (20%biodiesel + 80% petrodiesel), thus introducing biofuel blends to offest the potential application problems and cost. It seems we are very far from biodiesel availability at the retail pump, so most users will tend to be government agencies or fleets who take advantage of tax credits. I understand Europeans are a bit more progressive, but end-users still face the same concerns.

I expect the more corn and soy based products (as well as by-products) we consume, all the better for everyone involved (except amorrison, I guess). The environmental benefits are clear, but the cost, availability & transportation of biodiesel is still in infancy in the US.

I think we'd all be interested to hear from people on this list who have direct experience converting to biofuels.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Having worked on diesel engines for a while, I heard many discussion on this topic.  There are a few off-the shelf fixes for some of the problems mentioned in this thread.  In addition, the issue of fuel crops is not a simple as it may sound.

Fuel filtering and solidifing:  There are heavy truck (i.e. 18-wheelers) fuel filters that include centrifugal prefilters and heaters.  These would help solve both of these issues.  While it occurs at a lower temperature with diesel, gelling is a common problem that can shut a truck down.  As a result, there are many ready to apply ways to deal with this problem.  Without going into more options, any heavy truck/engine service shop can sell you this type of stuff.

On the negative side, I don't know what bio-fuel does for emissions.  If I remember correctly, ethenol creates formaldehyde in spark ignited engines.  In general different fuels create different polution.  As the chemistry of a particular tank of bio-diesel may come from a number of crops, it will have different chemistry from the next tank.  This will change the exhaust chemistry as well.

The question raised about the use of top-soil as a fuel is a good one.  I don't know enough to provide an answer but there are some positive side to this question as well.  A considerable amount of farming is done in the world with poor soil conservation practices, especially in third world countries.  As these areas develop more efficient practices, perhaps they can supply fuel oil crops.  In addition, it seems as if the governments of the more developed world are paying farmers subsidies rather than depending on free-market economics to regulate supply.  Perhaps if there was more demand for their crops, the government could step out of using our taxes for this purpose.  Farmers stay in business and we get a renewable energy source.  Win-Win for all parties.  Besides if you ever get hungry, you can put a pot of fuel on your exhaust manifold and deep-fry dinner.


RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

WGJ:
Sorry about the confusion. While biodiesel and water are not miscible, they are soluble to a very small percent. The polar head groups in the Methyl Ester molecules form reverse micelles with the water, which allows a small percent of water into the solution. This is opposed to BD contaminated with methanol. While also soluble to a very small extent it would help draw water into the solution. The ASTM standard for biodiesel in the U.S. is 0.05% by volume, which is a limit that no decent fuel should have trouble meeting.

While there is no substitute for proper storage of any fuel, especially Biodiesel, there are limits to how long it will stay good. In many cases it will be years if properly stored. In short, there is no strong affinity for water with biodiesel. That’s one reason that it’s safe to water-wash the finished product for purification purposes.

As far as the destruction of fuel by microorganisms, it is possible if the storage conditions are bad enough. While I’ve not heard anything about formic acid production it seems like a viable pathway.  

Chris200:
I’m not too sure about frying food with biodiesel. With a flash point of 425°F the food won’t be the only thing getting crispy

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Chris200 - Good luck in NY with this particular alternate fuel. I personally think that it has a lot going for it in terms of 'the big picture'. If you can at least get bus fleets and garbage trucks, etc. to use such fuels there is a global environmental plus.
Someone else mentioned the recycling of fats and oils used in the food industries - these will reprocess as a diesel engine fuel, albeit at some cost but it is still an environmental plus. In cities there has to be a lot of this sort of waste material about.

As for western argriculture subsidising the oil crops - I live in the county of Essex in the UK - it's the one east of London and on the north bank of the Thames estuary. Until 50 years ago, it was almost a completely rural economy and, by and large, you can grow just about anything here.
Unfortunately, and mostly as a result of the UK being in the European Economic Community, a lot of lunatic subsidies, originally designed for continental small-scale farms, encourage the growing of crops like rape, for which the market is much smaller than the output. Hence we get surplus rape seed oil stored, at government (ie taxpayer's) expense all over the EU. It looks fine from a distance in May, when the fields around here are almost alight with the brilliant yellow of the flower. However, the urine-like stink which accompanies the flowering period is much less welcome.
As for the quality of land required to support cultivation, the rich farmland around here is effectively wasted growing this stuff. Obviously, the 'crop' from this plant is not the stalk or the leaf, but the seeds which follow the flower. As a result of needing to get the seeds set and ripened before the combines move in to harvest, many of the plants will have set their seeds or birds will have taken them. What follows is that a wild crop of the rape plant begins to develop along roadsides, on pieces of uncultivated land and on the central reservation of dual carriageways (you call it the median?) as a result of the distribution of the seed.
In some areas, local authorities have been forced to weed out the plants as they have a tendency to take over.
On this basis, I reckon they'd grow anywhere with a temperate or temperate to dry climate, without much encouragement, and the stalk and leaf residues could be composted to act as a soil conditioner/enricher for other crops. A possible boot-strapping process in some countries.
In case anyone doesn't know, they're a member of the cabbage family.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

I personnally use waste vegetable oil (WVO) that I pre-filter in my garage and pour into a coolant hose heated 2nd tank in the trunk.  I use hose in hose (wvo surrounded by cooland) to carry my new "fuel" to the injection pump.

Again, once the engine is hot (started from cold on petro-diesel), I switch using an electro-mechanical 6 port fuel selector valve to 100% recycled veg oil.

So yes, my VW Jetta 1996, IDI, works real nice on straight veg oil.  Runs smoother, with very slight reduced power (maybe 5%).  A frind of mine has 55 000 km ran on WVO in a 2000 VW Jetta TDI with no problem at all, even in the cold winters of Eastern Canada.

Hope this will help.

Another good reference would be here:  

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x

Bye,

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Since this thread has been resurrected I am going to jump in for at least one comment and a question.

Vegetable oil and/or ethanol can not be produced in enough quantity and at a low enough cost to replace petroleum based fuel.  Granted we should recycle all waste oil in preference to dumping or land filling but this is a low percentage of the fuel needed.

The oil part of a crop is low, usually 10% or less by weight.  It probably will not supply the fuel necessary to grow and process the vegetable crop into fuel.

It seems like an engine could be designed to burn finely divided starch and cellulose directly.  This way a 100% of the crop could be used as fuel.  Engines have been run, all be it imperfectly, on coal dust.  And some very large stationary engines burn residual oil.  These turn very slow which gives the residence time necessary to burn the large molecule (carbon number 20 and up).  It seems like a high temperature CI engine such as a ported two cycle (no valves) with insulated piston and head could develop enough heat to burn vegetable material directly.

Granted such an engine would produce copious amounts of NOx.  But could not we learn to use this?  Agriculture needs large amounts of fixed nitrogen.  NO2 is the precursor used to produce nitrate plant fertilizer.  The NO fraction can be quite conveniently oxidized to NO2.

It is not generaly realized but the industrial revolution is suppling the additional CO2 nessary to feed the high popoulation now on the earth.  It may be that the internal combustion engine is inadvertertly adding to the fixed nitrogen base too.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

I have made biodiesel using a 2 part acid (esterfication), base (transesterfication) process with good result. I use 100% waste cooking oil (as I live in Southern Louisiana, here they deep fry everything)in this process. As a cooking by product the feedstock must be dewatered and solids and insatiables must be filtered and or settled out.

the processor uses a Heliostat to provide process heat and has a vaccume methanol recovery system that recovers 30% to 40% of the uncatalyzed methanol feed stock.

This processor produces 60 US gallons of biodiesel and 25 to 30 gallons of glycerin from 100 gallons of feedstock per week. The used oil is a freebie and the reactants (methanol, 99% lye (sodium hydroxide) and 95% sulfuric acid cost about $20 to $30 USD.

the processor started out as a experiment to test the feasibility of using biodiesel as an additional fuel source in my 1999 dodge pickup. We now use the home brewed biofuel exclusively the dodge runs like new with slightly more power and cleaner emissions (retarded the injection timing to reduce combustion temps in an effort to reduce N0 formation) on fuel that was made from waste a waste that would still need some sort of processing to before disposal.

The process is a catalyst reaction and takes very little energy in put aside from pumping and heating (solar) to 140 degrees F fro dewatering and glycerin separation. The initial energy cost in growing, harvesting and extracting the WVO is of little concern as the use it was initially produced for it has fulfilled and at the point I acquire the used oil it is considered waste and would cost the initial user money in its disposal.  
Also, have built a system to process the by product glycerin to about 95% purity product for sale to the cottage cosmetic and soap industry.

As for elastomerics (pardon my spelling as I graduated from public school in LA) in the Cummins engine, the engine is as liquid tight as the day I bought the truck.

At the present cost of #2 diesel ($2+) I save $1 to $1.25 a gallon. And the trucks exhaust has a slight French fry aroma!

  

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Hi REDMANE that is awesome. Can I ask a few questions?

The truck doesn't need to warm up on $2 diesel before switching over to your biodiesel, even on cold days?

No modifications to the fuel lines (new seals)?

How often do you change the oil?

The processor sounds like an expensive setup. You should sell your plans in the back of Popular Mechanics or something, but include a few words on liability protection before Joe Shmoe is handling 95%+ pure acid & base. Ouch!

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

No Pre-running on petro-diesel even on cold days bio-diesel made from nut oils and/or animal fats have a solidification issue. However, I live in the southern US and a cold day here is in the  20s to 30s Deg F most of my feed stock is peanut and safflower  oil . Almost all diesel engines produced since 1995 have ester resistant elastomerics, including fuel lines, primary (lip seals) and secondary sealing elements (sealing rings and gaskets).

Contrary to popular belief, I change oil at the rated medium duty interval of 7000 Miles. Also twice a year I have an oil analysis done to check engine wear.

The processor is more or less a collection of three cone-bottomed tanks and a homemade inline sock filter. One small sliding vane PD pump (to allow tank stripping) and some piping; The chemicals are used in small amounts the acid for example is about 5% by volume and is added from a acid resistant carboy with a manual control valve to adjust addition rate. One tank for dewatering, the second for reaction and a third for washing and neutralization, all tanks are in process simultaneously the finished product goes to a 300 gal. fuel tank and is tripled filtered before it goes in a vehicle.

The Heliostat is a couple or sheet of reflective aluminum sheeting formed into a parabolic trough with a carbon steel tube at it reflection apex, covered with cheap window glass.
it is aimed to the south and uses a clock motor and a shaded photocell for tracking.

I am a handy person and I did all the fabrication.

The piping is cpvc Sch 80 good to 212 F and is acid and base resistant. The PH almost never strays more then to points from neutral.

As for selling the plans there is a plethora of plans out there, mine is an adaptation of the better parts of many with a few addition of my own ideas. Most people unless driven to understand the esoteric would not go to such lengths.

Anthony Milford (Redmane)

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

I'm burning biodiesel in two vehicles (1985 Jetta and 1989 Cummins) and Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO) directly in Veggie Van Gogh.

There are some common misconceptions in this thread to date:

There are three ways to use vegetable oil in a common diesel engine, all of which have the common goal of making the vegoil thinner:

1) Chemical (biodiesel): trans-esterfication separates the hydrocarbon chains from the glycerin via the introduction of alcohol in the presense of a catalyst. The most common process uses methanol, but ethanol can also be used, albeit in a more complicated process.

2) Dilution: some people simply mix diesel fuel or gasoline or mineral spirits or whatever with vegetable oil. IMHO, this is the most risky way of doing it -- both to the engine, and for safety.

3) Heat: using engine waste heat and/or electric heat, vegetable oil becomes as thin as cold diesel fuel. This requires about 80 degrees C, or 180 F. A combination of coolant heat and electric heat is often used. See my site posted above for design notes and schematics on this process.

The critical item for any of these is the injection pump. Bosche is well regarded in vegoil circles, while Lucas is almost universally despised.

Other than that, damage due to biodiesel is rare and limited. After several years of use of commercial, washed biodiesel, rubber fuel lines may swell or weep and need replacing. I replaced the 1989 lift pump (NOT the expensive injection pump) on Veggie Van Gogh with one with a Viton diaphram for about $70, and am still using the original rubber fuel lines, two years later, with no obvious damage.

The point about using cropland for fuel production is well taken. However, we are currently growing food with a heavy input of non-sustainable petroleum, at approximately 2-4 calories of petroleum for every calorie of food produced! When that oil goes into decline within the decade, we'd better have something else in the pipes!

Soy is used for most commercial biodiesel production today, but it is a very inefficient source. This probably has more to do with farm state subsidies than anything else. Rapeseed produces over twice as much oil per hectare. Tropical oils can produce nearly ten times as much oil as soy. Small test plots of algae suggest it may produce as much as 500 times as much as soy, but it is not a mainstream product, and there are lots of bugs to work out.

Biofuels are widely derided as incapable of supplanting the entire petroleum fuel stream. This is true, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be used. No single proposal is currently capable of replacing petroleum. The ideal future hold a distributed, diverse energy structure, versus the "energy monoculture" we have today.

The current US waste vegoil stream is about 3 billion gallons per year, or about 10% of the US diesel fuel consumption, or about 1% of the US gasoline consumption.

In short, making biodiesel or using vegoil directly works well and is easily within the capabilities of a home handyman tinkerer.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Yes. At this time rapeseed can only supplement petro-diesel. In Germany diesel is mixed up to 5% with biodiesel. That doesn't affect the endurance of diesel engines, especially rubber parts (ok, maybe in an old Mercedes Benz from the 70's)

One can't simply burn down petroleum, it has to be replaced by other kinds of fuel because petroleum is needed for other purposes (e.g. chemistry)...

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Now there's some logic I find hard to understand. Why is biohydrocarbon not suitable as a feedstock for chemical industries, but OK as a fuel? I'd a thunk they were pretty much interchangeable.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks


Greg -
  biofeedstocks are quite different chemically from the hydrocarbon components of petroleum (for more detail, see below).  The short answer is that if you're burning it for energy, the exact chemical structure isnt all that relevant as long as other properties (boiling point, flashpoint, viscosity, etc) are acceptably close.  So in engines, methylesters of fatty acids (derived from vegetable oils) are a pretty good mimic of heavier petroleum fractions like diesel fuel and ethanol (produced by bulk fermentation of sugars) is similar to lighter petroleum fractions like gasoline.  
  For the chemical industry, however, the chemical structure of the starting material is crucial, and the starting materials like ethylene and propylene arent biological molecules, so you have to create an entirely new process to get your product from available biological feedstocks.
  In more detail, biofeedstocks can grossly be divided in 4 categories--oils (ie long chain fatty acids and the glycerol esters thereof), sugars (primarily glucose and related polymers like starch, cellulose, hemicellulose, etc), protein/amino acids, and heterogeneous organic mixtures like animal waste.  Note that none of these are hydrocarbons--all are at least partially oxidized, so they cant be cracked and refined to yield the same products as petroleum.
  From these, it's really easy to make common fermentation products like ethanol and acetic acid using large scale bacterial cultures.  Other biological molecules like amino acids (eg MSG) and vitamins and such are also fairly easy to make using modified bacterial strains that overproduce specific compounds.  However, production of industrial chemicals requires development of new pathways to products from these feedstocks.  For most industrial chemicals, the cost of developing processses using biofeedstocks if such a process is possible at all is too high to make it feasible when compared to use of petroleum.  

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

In addition to aeliot's excellent posting, it should be noted that a property that makes biofuels an excellent combustion fuel also makes them a poor feedstock for organic chemistry: lack of cycles.

This means they don't put cancer-causing PAHs into the atmosphere when they burn, but it also means you can't make all the neat stuff that you can from benzene.

A "real" chemist should feel free to step in here...

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks


an addendum to my previous post: it was pointed out to me that hydrocarbon fuels are accessible from biomass using gasification to a syn gas-like product (ie mostly H2 and CO and some other gaseous hydrocarbons).  This "bio syn gas" can then be polymerized using a Fischer Tropsch process to give very high cetane diesel fuel that is in many ways higher quality than petro diesel--no sulfur, no BTX.  The result is lower emissions, but without many of the problems of traditional biodiesel.  I think cost is still is big obstacle right now, but technology is improving.  

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

The Fisher Tropsch process can utilize any hydrocarbon, from turkey guts to waste wood to natural gas.  Google "gas to liquids" or "fisher tropsch" or "gtl" for an interesting read about plants in Quatar and other gas rich places with plants about to come on line within the next few years.

rmw

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

This has been an excellent thread.  I've been involved with biodiesel for a few years now, and I've never seen so much pertainent info. in one place.  

It has always seemed to me that if vegetable oil is to gain widespread use in diesel engines, then it is the engine, not the oil, that will need to be modified.  Making biodiesel seems like a great way to use vegetable oil for fuel in the immediate short term.  But in the long term and on the large scale, why go through such an involved and expensive industrial process if an engine (and fuel system) could be developed that would burn vegetable oil directly?

I would think that the gelling problem and the necessity to preheat the fuel could be easily addressed in a fuel system designed specifically for vegetable oil as opposed to petro diesel.

The main problem, as I understand it, is that vegetable oil has a tendency to polymerize when heated.  This polymerization occurs when the oil is placed under high pressure prior to injection.  Injector tips can become fouled, cylinder walls wear faster, and injection pumps can be damaged by the polymerized particles that come back through it via the return fuel line.

Many people have successfully run vehicles on straight vegetable oil.  However, I have also heard of several failures related to the above issue after roughtly 10k-30k miles.  I have never heard of anyone successfully running a diesel engine on straight vegetable oil for the expected lifetime of the engine, i.e., 200k-300k miles.

I am currently rebuilding an engine for an '81 VW Rabbit that I will run on straight vegetable oil if I can address the issue of polymerization.

Does anyone know of potential solutions to this problem?

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Northboundtrain wrote: "I have never heard of anyone successfully running a diesel engine on straight vegetable oil for the expected lifetime of the engine, i.e., 200k-300k miles..."

You might want to check out the vegoil-diesel Yahoo Group. There are people on this list who have in excess of 100,000 miles on vegoil. There's even an owner-operator trucker who routinely goes coast-to-coast on it, and I believe he was claiming half a million miles!

On the other hand, there are horror stories, such as the band called Ape.

Bottom line seems to be that careful people who do their homework can have great results.

I've only got about 5,000 miles on mine, but I'm hoping for hundreds of thousands more!

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

May I echo Northboundtrain's comment about this thread being excellent?

There is certainly a good amount of knowledge shown on the use of biofuel and waste cooking oil in engines.

I used to work in the UK in fuel delivery engineering for a major US auto manufacturer. Some ten years ago my colleagues and I had recognised that such fuels might take a reasonable slice of the auto fuels market, especially in economies that imported all their fuels. We also saw that biomass blended with normal diesel was likely to grow as alcohol/gasoline blends have.

However, it proved very difficult to get this across to the management of the company and to procure enough cash to fund a worthwhile programme to examine the long term effects of the use of blends and 100% biofuels. In fact, one of the company's 'experts' from the USA produced a graph showing a decreasing trend in the use of diesel engines which was almost the exact reverse of what our own independent market research indicated.

Suffice it to say, the cash soon ran out when our own UK management decided not to push the case for funding.

What we did see:
- The more recent your fuel system, the higher the temperature of the fuel going back to the tank. Experience with systems using the Bosch VP44 pump showed that at ambient temperatures of 38ºC, temperatures at the FI pump could exceed 90ºC under load and given time, the bulk fuel store in the tank would rise also and the fuel at the pick-up might approach 90ºC as well - this was with a simple fuel delivery module in the fuel tank. Vehicles tested were 4cyl units of 1.8 to 2.5 litre IDI turbocharged (about 100hp)

This was bad on two accounts:
(1) The durability of the FI pump was affected. Metallurgical failures of the high pressure pump components were experienced with fuel temperatures like this. The Bosch VP44's used in development also had some keep-alive memory which allowed their recent history to be examined in the event of a failure. If this feature persisted into production this is obviously a problem for anyone that has a VP44 failure in warranty as the manufacturer can refuse to cough up if the part had been 'misused'. For anyone with an older vehicle this is a costly failure. I imagine that a 100% bio fuel with no sulphur content wouldn't help this.

(2) Where the vehicle had a plastic (HDPE) fuel tank, certain tank manufacturers voiced concern over the performance of the tank, long term. One manufacturer said that their biofuel tests had shown that tanks could blister following long term exposure to hot biofuels - I never saw this myself but this was a major tank supplier that we had no commercial ties with.

- Seals and gaskets
This was mentioned much earlier in the thread, however, there are still many places in the fuel supply system where you may find nitrile rubber seals and these seem to be the ones least able to deal with biodiesels. For example:

Fuel line 'quick connects' tend to have two 'O' rings these days, one nitrile and one viton. The nitrile stays relatively flexible at low temperatures when the viton gets hard and the viton provides some durability as the nitrile ages.
Fuel sender/fuel module gaskets are usually nitrile and the bung where the fuel filler pipe joins the tank is often nitrile when the filler pipe is a separate part. All these parts were seen to degrade when high fractions of bio were used in diesel fuel.

-Fuel lift pumps.
Specifically where electric pumps are used and where they are the 'in-tank' type similar to gas EFI pumps. Bosch were the only people that I found that had a grasp of the durability issues associated with bio. Benerally, the pump's mechanical components lasted really well, as you might expect. The real problem area was brush and commutator wear.
Some pumps we used were showing a brush/comm life of about 30% of that of similar gas EFI units. Brushes wore quickly and also wore deep tracks into the commutators. The composition of the brush was the major factor and to a much, much lesser extent the material and shape of the commutator.

Sorry tis is a bit long - last item.
My local domestic recycling yard has a place for just about everything except waste cooking oils and fats. There is a tank for engine oil but not for anything else. perhaps it's time the recycling of this particular domestic waste was begun.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

I'm currently going through the exercise of pre-emptively replacing fuel lines in Veggie Van Gogh. I pulled the fuel lines, and they look to be in good shape, but I had to drop the tank anyway, so I'd rather do this at a time of my choosing than along the side of the road somewhere!

Viton is HORRIBLY EXPENSIVE! I need 34 feet of 3/8" hose -- that's nearly $700 worth of Viton!

With some additional research, I found that most fluoroastamers will tolerate both biodiesel and vegoil quite nicely. The problem is they are generally semi-rigid materials. Nylon 6 and aluminum are also okay -- copper-bearing metals (brass, bronze) or zinc or lead bearing metals (galvanized, soldered) are out.

So I got 50 feet of clear Teflon 3/8" OD semi-rigid tubing for $150, which I am planning to join to the existing barbs with SHORT lengths of 3/8" ID Viton.

The Teflon is not as abrasion resistant as the old rubber (probably Nitrile) hose, so I'm going to cover it with 1/2" electrical loom, and of course, secure it to the chassis properly.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

I hope you don't mind me saying, but keep at it, Bytesmiths!
DIYers seem to make more fundamental progress on stuff like this than the big boys.
I can't recall having any problems with nylon6/66 material fuel lines, by the way.

On the BBC News this morning there was an item about global warming, apparently some research is suggesting that when the average global temperature has increased by 2C° the condition may bevome non-reversible. Currently the figure is 0.8C° - these figures are as compared to pre-industrialisation figures of c1750.
The USA was described as currently contributing 25% of the world's CO2 for just 4% of the world's population, so any move to biomass-derived fuels must be a good one. Rather recirculate CO2 than make more from fossil fuels.

Coventional diesel fuel technology in Europe for cars and light vans is now centred firmly on common-rail systems with injection pressures in the range 800 bar at idle to 1600+ bar at load. The whole fuel injection regime is 3D mapped just as a gas EFI system is. This results in average fuel consumption figures of 40 miles per US gallon for a Contour/Mystique sized vehicle at Euro Stage III emissions levels. Stage IV is imminent.
It would be nice to see power and emissions results from systems like this run on biomass or waste veg oil fuels. I dare say someone has done this, but I am no longer closely enough associated with this work to be kept informed.

More power to you.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

"On the BBC News this morning there was an item about global warming, apparently some research is suggesting that when the average global temperature has increased by 2C° the condition may bevome non-reversible. "

Oh, so if the average global temperature has ever been more then 2 degrees higher than it is now then the current world could not exist.

So how hot, exactly, do you think it has /ever/ been in the past?

http://www.edu.pe.ca/morellhigh/grassroots/global/history.htm

"Global warming is always assumed as being a bad thing, but it has existed as long as 75,000,000 years ago. From the heterotroph hypothesis founded by a man by the name of A.I. Oparin we know that prehistoric earth had an atmosphere which was densely polluted by Carbon Dioxide, Methane, Nitrous Oxide, Hydrogen gas, and Water vapor. It was the existence of these gases and the violent natural reactions that resulted in an average temperature that was about 5.6 C higher than today."

So, either the BBC report is wrong, or Oparin's work is wrong. I'm guessing the Beeb report is alarmist nonsense.





Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Sorry to have apparently offended - I noted this morning's report, that's all. The BBC reported what had been published. I don't think they normally engage in alarmist reporting techniques themselves.

I also appreciate that the examination of the world's past shows conditions that were incredibly different from those we enjoy today, and I think that's what reports like this are about.
Ice ages and periods of tropical warmth in northern latitudes have come and gone many times, there is no doubt. Evidence suggests that the changes in the past took hundreds, if not thousands or tens of thousands of years and evolution adapted.
However, what we are apparently looking at is whether flesh and blood like you or I could cope with unnaturally rapid change and whether the world could continue to feed itself.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Author: Matt Curry / Associated Press

Publication: The Detroit News

Date: January 15, 2005

Abstract: On the Road Again means something new for Willie Nelson these days -- a chance for truckers to fill their tanks with clean-burning biodiesel fuel... Nelson and three business partners recently formed a company called Willie Nelson's Biodiesel that is marketing the fuel to truck stops. The product -- called BioWillie -- is made from vegetable oils, mainly soybeans, and can be burned without modification to diesel engines.

Full Text:

DALLAS -- On the Road Again means something new for Willie Nelson these days -- a chance for truckers to fill their tanks with clean-burning biodiesel fuel.

Nelson and three business partners recently formed a company called Willie Nelson's Biodiesel that is marketing the fuel to truck stops. The product -- called BioWillie -- is made from vegetable oils, mainly soybeans, and can be burned without modification to diesel engines.

It may be difficult to picture the 71-year-old hair-braided Texas rebel as an energy company executive, but the singer's new gig is in many ways about social responsibility -- and that is classic Nelson.

There is really no need going around starting wars over oil. We have it here at home. We have the necessary product, the farmers can grow it, said Nelson, who organized Farm Aid two decades ago to draw attention to the plight of American agriculture.

Nelson told The Associated Press in an interview last week that he began learning about the product a few years ago after his wife purchased a biodiesel-burning car in Hawaii, where the star has a home.

I got on the computer and punched in biodiesel and found out this could be the future, said Nelson, who now uses the fuel for his cars and tour buses.

Peter Bell, a Texas biodiesel supplier, struck up a friendship with Nelson after filling up one of the tour buses, and the business partnership came together just before Christmas.

Bell said Nelson's name will help the largely unknown fuel -- typically purchased by government agencies to promote environmental awareness -- gain wider national acceptance. The fuel's average U.S. price per gallon is $1.79.

What Willie brings to this is the ability to communicate directly with a truck driver. That kind of community is hard for people to get to, Bell said. When he starts talking, these folks really listen to him. ... It's like having Tiger Woods talk about golf clubs.

Still, a driver can cover many miles without spotting a biodiesel pump. A map on the National Biodiesel Board's Web site shows a heavy concentration of distributors in the Midwest, but very few in other parts of the country.

Nelson's group is currently negotiating with Oklahoma City-based Love's Travel Stops & Country Stores to carry the fuel at its 169 locations nationwide.

Dan Gilligan, president of the Petroleum Marketers Association of America, expects commercial expansion for biodiesel, but says that supplies are still limited and that making the fuel available in northern states is a challenge.

For terminals to store biodiesel, they have to store it in heated tanks to avoid gelling problems. That's a challenge for the industry to overcome, he said.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

This has been some great reading. Thanks to all that have posted.
I am leaning more to the veggi oil vehicle rather than bio diesel. It seems that there would be less hassel in handling of the product. I am also interested in possibly growing a crop to produce my own fuel. Does any one have any suggestions on what crop or pro's and con's of this idea.

One would think that if you could produce your own crop for fuel in a vehicle, what would stop someone from suppling a diesel generator with this fuel for power purposes?

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

"I am also interested in possibly growing a crop to produce my own fuel. Does any one have any suggestions on what crop or pro's and con's of this idea."

Where do you live? Palm kernel oil will produce over ten tonnes per hectare.

If you're in a temperate climate, rapeseed seems to be the way to go, at about two tonnes per hectare.

Most biodiesel in the US comes from soy oil, which produces under a tonne per hectare, but is heavily subsidized, so it is cheaper than rapeseed oil. That is not the right way to go, IMHO.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

"Bytesmiths"
Thanks.
I live in the southern-mid part of Washington State.

Is the Palm Kernel had to work with?

I would not be making "biodiesel" I would use just the refined oil product.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Tropical oils are not suitable to northern climates, neither for growing, nor for use. They have a high gel point and wax point, and will go solid on you well above freezing!

Rapeseed seems to be the oil of choice in colder areas. Germany puts a lot of RME (Rape methyl esters, or biodiesel made from rapeseed oil) in their diesel.

I've been burning waste oil from restaurants. Most of it seems to be soy.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

-Responding in particular to what Bytesmith has posted, why is it that copper or copper-based lines would not be suitable for straight veggie oil? I think I understand why copper would be less than desireable for biodiesel, but why is this a trouble for straight WVO?.

I'm converting an older Benz diesel to run on straight, heated, waste veggie oil and thought I was clever when I decided to forego the expensive viton for household copper lines....

Kudos on Veggie Van Gogh, by the by...

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

"why is it that copper or copper-based lines would not be suitable for straight veggie oil?"

Did I say that?

Sorry if I implied that. Copper is not recommended for biodiesel at the US Biodiesel Board website, but should not be a problem for vegoil.

I have a short segment in the VVG biodiesel line, for a "U" section that was to tight a bend for flexible hose. Doesn't seem to hurt anything, but I'd be hesitant about making a long run with it.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

This 'TCP' technology is interesting, I wonder how long it will be before 'mining' old domestic waste land fill sites is financially viable?

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

"I wonder how long it will be before 'mining' old domestic waste land fill sites is financially viable?"

Any day now? Petroleum production is near peak levels, and must inevitably decline. Politicians, media, business -- they're all acting like it doesn't exist. Cheap energy has allowed humans to grow from under a billion before the oil age to nearly seven billion today. How will all those people survive when the price of everything that is touched by oil goes up by a factor of ten or more? (PS: that includes food.)

http://www.DieOff.com

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks


Good point WGL and Bytesmith

We very well may find that the fossil fuel age has provided us with much more than immediate shaft power. 100 years ago 20 Bu/a corn yield was par.  Now we average 120 Bu/a.  True farming techniques are better but it does not account for that much yield increase.  CO2  level has a large impact on yield.  

I believe NOx emission is contributing significantly to our fixed nitrogen base.  Sulfur is another contribution of fossil fuel.  Farmers for the last 50 years have not had to add Sulfur.  Now that the Sulfur is being taken out of fuel and we no longer use high sulfur oil and coal for heating, farmers are finding Sulfur deficiencies.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

There's an interesting piece in http://www.sciencdeirect.com about using animal fats as a 'diesel' fuel.

It deals mostly with emissions and performance values of pre-heated animal fats versus normal fuel in a single-cylinder test engine.

Use this link to go direct to article
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.renene.2004.11.003

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

An item from the Geneva Motor Show:

--- DaimlerChrysler emphasizes synthetic diesel commitment ----

At the Geneva Motor Show, DaimlerChrysler has confirmed its commitment
to the development of synthetic diesel fuel from biomass, known as
"SunDiesel". This biomass-to-liquid (BTL) fuel is produced in a
Fischer-Tropsch process, utilizing synthesis gas obtained through
gasification of biomass (for instance, wood chips).

SunDiesel is very effective in reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
According to a lifecycle analysis commissioned by DaimlerChrysler, the
total life cycle CO2 emissions could be cut by up to 90%. A
disadvantage of BTL fuels is the energy demand in the manufacturing
process, which is much higher than in liquid fuels produced from
natural gas.

The SunDiesel fuel is developed by DaimlerChrysler in partnership with
Volkswagen. The fuel will be produced by CHOREN in Freiberg (Saxony).

    http://wwwsg.daimlerchrysler.com/SD7DEV/GMS/TEMPLATES/GMS_PRESS_RELEASE/0,2941,0-1-64903-1-1-text-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0,00.html

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Another item from the USA

USDA Value-Added Producer Grants:

The US Department of Agriculture (USDA) announced the availability of $14.3 million in grants that will support the development of value-added agriculture business ventures, with a priority for bioenergy projects.

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usdahome?contentidonly=true&contentid=2005/03/0076.xml

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20051800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2005/05-4310.htm

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

I currently work for a technology company that is interested in running all the company trucks/vans off of waste vegetable oil from local chinese/fast food restaurants.  On top of that they also want to set up a couple 200A generators to run the office power and supply a hook-up center for the vans/trucks for warming purposes.  The owner has even mentioned hearing of the possibility of our local gas/electrical provider paying us for putting our excess back on the grid.  

I know of a local engineer in my area that has transformed his old mercedes to have two tanks, one diesel and the other vegetable.  I believe he starts up with the diesel and then switches over to the other tank after about 3 minutes etc.

We first would like to know of any grants out there federal or New York that would help us give this a shot. I am then  turning to you guys to let me know what is feisable and what is an impossible feat.  We have an office full of electricians and me being a mechanical engineer may help us make all this a reality.  We feel we have a standard to set, after all our company name is Future Technologies of NY!
 

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

FTech, good luck seeking grants! THAT's much harder than writing them!

I wrote a modest proposal (couple grand) for converting a food services business to supply their own transportation and heating needs via SVO and biodiesel. I've sent it to four funding organizations, and got polite brush-offs each time.

So maybe I wrote a bad proposal, or maybe petroleum is still too cheap.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Or maybe the people holding the grant money thought that businesses ought to stand on their own two feet.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

"Or maybe the people holding the grant money thought that businesses ought to stand on their own two feet."

The deliverable was to be a report, describing how various food services businesses could do this.

You're thinking I just wanted a handout to convert my own business. Shame on you.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

well, "a food services business" is singular. Maybe your application failed because of that sort of error.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

2
The person wondering what to grow in Washington State - here's a good link to oil output:

http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Vegoil

# Soybean: 40 to 50 US gal/acre (40 to 50 m³/km²)
# Rapeseed: 110 to 145 US gal/acre (100 to 140 m³/km²)
# Mustard: 140 US gal/acre (130 m³/km²)
# Jatropha: 175 US gal/acre (160 m³/km²)
# Palm oil: 650 US gal/acre (610 m³/km²) [2] (http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html)
# Algae: 10,000 to 20,000 US gal/acre (10,000 to 20,000 m³/km²)



RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

News item on waste cooking oil use in diesel vehicles.

NEW ZEALAND: Ssangyong reported to be trialling waste vegetable oil fuel
26 Jul 2005
Source: just-auto.com editorial team
   
 

 
South Korean car manufacturer SsangYong - owned and controlled by China's Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation (SAIC) – reportedly is using New Zealand as a test bed for waste vegetable oil (WVO) as a fuel.

According to the stuff.co.nz website, ChangingWorld.com reported that Ssangyong has provided a 2.9-litre turbo-diesel Musso that Lower Hutt-based company Renewable Energy Solutions has converted to a dual-fuel vehicle running on either "Envirofuel" - recycled waste cooking oil - or conventional diesel fuel.

Renewable Energy Solutions is also in the process of converting a 2.7-litre diesel SsangYong Stavic (a new 7-seater minivan) to test the fuel, according to the reports.

David Renwick, of Renewable Energy, has been running the Musso 4WD on fish and chips oil for over a year and plans to offer a conversion kit for vehicles at $NZ5000 which would include a 1000-litre home tank to top up with waste vege oil, which he said, on his company's website, costs 49c/litre.

Tests reportedly had shown fuel consumption was about a third better than on using commercial diesel.

No chemicals were added to the oil, but it was warmed in the vehicle's tank to the point where it was thin enough to be properly atomised by the fuel injectors. This enabled it to burn properly, without forming deposits on the injectors and in the cylinder head.

The company's vehicle conversion included two fuel tanks - one for diesel, one for vegetable oil - a heater for the vegetable oil and an injection management system that could handle both.

Russell Burling, chairman of SsangYong's Australian importer Rapson Holdings, is reported to have said that he would like to trial the Envirofuel technology in Australia.

The company was planning to bring in an NZ engineer next month to look at the requirements for trials in Australia.

"SsangYong Korea is also interested," Burling reportedly said. "Definitely with the way fuel prices have gone we must investigate alternatives."

The reports said that, at the time of SAIC's initial acquisition of 48.9% of SsangYong in January, SsangYong CEO So Jin-kwan stated that SsangYong would concentrate on developing environmentally-friendly engines, with a diesel-hybrid engine possible. Currently, SsangYong uses Mercedes technology in its vehicles.
 

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Heres the deal My boss, as well as I are looking in to the Bio-desiel options. First off I am looking for Comformation that newer moddle desile trucks (year 2000 and up) already has the technology inside the engine platform to run off of boi desiel. (yes i did tell him that, but my knowlege is limited...and i'm probably wrong.) Second. If He did by a new modle desiel, what would be the amount of money need to convert/change out eninge parts to run off the bio desiel. Thirdl, Does bio-desile mean he can go to the locala fast food joint and take there oil of them and strain it himself to use? Response to this post is vital to his choice of besiel-v-gas. Your help would be very much apreciated. (sorry for spelling >.> it's always been crapy for me)

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Punkneko,
Go to greasecar.com. There is alot of information there and alot of people will to tell you about there experiences with veggie oil and biodiesel.

I know of a few newer vehicles that are running on bio or veggie fuel with no problems. If you set the system up correctly it will run many miles.

Diesels where built to run on oil. Do a search on the first diesel that was previewed, it was running on peanut oil.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Hi punkneko!

"I am looking for Comformation that newer moddle desile trucks (year 2000 and up) already has the technology inside the engine platform to run off of boi desiel."

No problem. In fact, any diesel of any age will work on properly made biodiesel with minimal impact. Biodiesel degrades natural rubber, so older vehicles with natural rubber parts will eventually need service. The lift pump (NOT the expensive injection pump) on Veggie Van Gogh (http://www.Bytesmiths.com/Van) went out a few months after switching to biodiesel. It was about $70 for the part, which I replaced myself. After two years of biodiesel, I had to drop the tank for some other reason, and replaced 10 meters of fuel line with Teflon, but the original fuel line had not degraded at all.

"If He did by a new modle desiel, what would be the amount of money need to convert/change out eninge parts to run off the bio desiel."

Zero. But unless you can buy it at the pump where you are, you need to build or buy a processor, or have some storage and pumping facility. Most commercial biodiesel these days is delivered on-site in 55 gallon drums or 200 gallon totes, then YOU have to figure out how to get it into your vehicle. So there may be overhead costs, but not in converting a newer engine.

"Does bio-desile mean he can go to the locala fast food joint and take there oil of them and strain it himself to use?"

Absolutely not! Biodiesel is NOT just vegetable oil! Unaltered vegoil is too thick to get through the engine -- you need to thin it somehow. Biodiesel comes from a simple chemical process that makes the oil thinner. If you want to burn straight vegetable oil (SVO) or waste vegetable oil (WVO), then you DO need to do engine conversion to heat the oil to make it thinner.

More details about SVO/WVO at: (http://www.bcsea.org/sustainableenergy/biodiesel2.asp)

Good luck, and do some Googling to learn tons more about

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

If I heated straight vegetable oil (ie not waste or recovered) up to say 80 deg C, and put it into a hot Diesel engine, what type of problems would I be likely to see, and would the exhaust smell like French Fries?

I am interested in more in detail than "fuel system O rings, pump and injectors", I am interested in cylinder issues, piston ring wear, head coking, and expected level of NOx emission worsening.

And how about the same question, but using crude palm or rape oil rather than refined?

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

"If I heated straight vegetable oil... up to say 80 deg C, and put it into a hot Diesel engine, what type of problems would I be likely to see, and would the exhaust smell like French Fries?"

The second part is easier to answer: yes, it will smell like french fries -- or elephant ears, or donuts, or whatever people imagine.

The first part is more difficult to answer with certainty. There are lots of people who have done this for many thousands of miles each, but very few published, formal studies. There are reports of injector coking or ring land coking, but again, not formally studies, and possibly attributable to poor practices (oil not hot enough, etc.)

As a mech engr, perhaps you have to cred to do a formal study and help everyone out with some hard data!

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Bytesmiths,

Thanks for your comment.

Do you know of any way of mitigating the smell in the exhaust? Would an SCR get rid of the smell? I'm talking about reasonably meaty engines (between 1400HP and 3500HP).

Thanks

Neil





RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

"Do you know of any way of mitigating the smell in the exhaust?"

Gee, I think of biodiesel as mitigating the smell of petrodiesel exhaust!

The smell is certainly no more intense than petrodiesel exhaust, and considerably less objectionable.

Perhaps if we knew more about why your application is so french-fry-smell averse, we might come up with better suggestions.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

FYI...
I have been using B100 (100% biodiesel) since April in a 1999 E300 Mercedes and a 1985 300D Mercedes.  The 1999 has run over 7,000 on B100 and the 1985 has run over 5,000 on B100.  It is wonderful fuel; no smell, quicker starting (less glow plug time when the engine is cold), quieter idling, no smoke, no soot AND it is make in Ohio.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

I want to put a static engine in a building, but I am not allowed to cause a nuisance to local residents. The nearest neighbours are c.300m away, but a 1400HP set will give off a large volume of exhaust gas.

I could take the exhaust very high for better dispersal, but this would have a negative visual impact

Noise nuisance is easy to deal with-but I can't measure smell very easily without actually running the set.

I don't think that odour will really be a problem - but I want someone to reassure me and make me feel better about it!

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

I'd think you can "spin" whatever exhaust smell there is in a positive manner: "We're using environmentally-friendly biofuel -- you may notice a slight odor like bread baking, rather than the stench of diesel fumes!"

I think 300m is a good buffer for odor. They'll only smell it when the wind is just right. When I run Veggie Van Gogh at events (Cumming 4BT, 105HP), I have to invite people right up to the exhaust pipe to get a whiff.

RE: Vegetable oil as fuel for trucks

Here's a paper that claims the physical property differences in esters and triglycerides carry over to the combustion process:  http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~ajl23/Biodiesel04.pdf

Sounds to me like the best shot at doing this successfully would prolly require retuning the engine and being sure that the oil was fresh to minimize gum and deposit formation.  It mentions two companies that make engines specifically to run on unconverted vegetable oil, so you might want to research what they do that's different.

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