Mechanical Design Business
Mechanical Design Business
(OP)
Suppose a mechanical engineer (by degree and skills, not by license) wanted to do mechanical design and CAD work as an independent contractor for local industries. Could he or she do this legally as long as there were no engineering required such as engineering calculations? If this "designer" ran into a project that did require engineering, that he or she is capable of, could this be done and then have a licensed PE check over and approve?
(I had a similar question posted in another forum but it got nixed before I got any useful info. I don't know if it was because of the topic or because of the replies that I didn't get to see. I'm just looking for clarification.)
(I had a similar question posted in another forum but it got nixed before I got any useful info. I don't know if it was because of the topic or because of the replies that I didn't get to see. I'm just looking for clarification.)





RE: Mechanical Design Business
In Australia or the UK Joe Blow can set up a company and sell mechanical engineering services direct to the public if he so desires.
I'm a bit puzzled how you can do engineering without calculations.
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Mechanical Design Business
The corporate license can be as easy as in Alberta where all it takes is for a P.Eng to sign saying that he will be responsible for the ethical practice of the firm, In Manitoba it requires professional errors and omissions insurance. In Saskatchewan it requires an extensive application listing all projects and involvement as well as several references.
So to answer your question, no you could not set up a company to sell engineering services if you are not licensed. You could not even practice engineering as an employee without a license. You cannot even call yourself an engineer without a license.
That does not mean that you cannot offer support services to engineers. There are many companies offering support to engineers. CAD services, concrete testing or field survey services for example.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Mechanical Design Business
RDK: What I am talking about is basically "support to engineers". My question involves the fine line found in mechanical design between "CAD support" and "engineering". When that line is crossed and there comes about a need for a significant amount of engineering work (yes, with calculations) to complete a design project, can a PE be hired to look over the "engineering" part of it even though the work was done by the nonlicensed but otherwise qualified designer? Please keep in mind that this designer would be an independent contractor.
I hope this clears up my question a little. If not, I'll try again later.
RE: Mechanical Design Business
I can see where your services would be useful but to be safe be careful who receives your advertising (non-public).
RE: Mechanical Design Business
RE: Mechanical Design Business
As for you first question, it depends upon what US state you are located in. Many states require a firm to have a professional engineer in residence who is in responsible charge of the engineering work conducted in the office or place of business of the firm. This means a engineer must actually be located in your office to adequately supervise you. So you can not just do engineering work in your office and then send it to a different office for a PE to stamp and review. But again it depends upon which state you are in, check with your local Board of Engineers for their statues. In the states that do not require an engineer to physically be located in your office, I guess you could go all the way and just have an engineer review it. Not that I agree with allowing that personally.
If I understand correctly, your fundamental question is how much work can you do on your own with out call it "engineering". I have copied the legal terminology at the end of this message for your own interpretation. I have always felt the important part was "safeguarding life, health, or property".
I guess my quick personal opinion is that if all you are doing is red-lines that is not engineering. I have heard of firms sending their redlines and marked up drawings to the Philippines and India to have the cad work done.
"Practice of Engineering" means:
(i) any service or creative work the adequate performance of which requires engineering education, training, and experience in the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical, and engineering sciences to the services or creative work as consultations, investigation, evaluation, planning and design of engineering works and systems, planning the use of water, engineering surveys, and the inspection of construction of for the purpose of ensuring compliance with drawings and specifications;
(ii) any of the function described that embrace the services or work; either public or private, in connection with any utilities, structures, building, machines, equipment, processes, work systems, project, and industrial or consumer products ... insofar as they involve safeguarding life, health, or property.
RE: Mechanical Design Business
Now if your just talking about designing the machine and not actually making it yourself then this is a gray area to me. I would think you would need a PE since you are only providing a service and not a product. It could be ok too but I know for sure if you build it too, NO PE is required in any state in the US.
RE: Mechanical Design Business
Having a PE review your work would require full documentation and assurance that the PE understands the problem and your design solution fully. Expensive, and would not help you in a court of law since your company would still be unable to legally offer engineering services, even if you subcontract all of ASME.
Possibility: aquire a PE partner, even if he has minimal involvement, as long as he has FULL oversight on your design work. You could arrange him as a minority partner and pay him in stock dividends based on the time he spent overseeing design work. If you end up doing mostly CAD work, he wouldn't make much, but if he instead ended up devoting a lot of time overseeing your numerous design jobs, he'd get more. I don't know that you'd be able to find someone willing to agree with this situation, though, because of the wide flucuation in time requirements and compensation potential that would be possible in any given period.
RE: Mechanical Design Business
Section: a Page: 1
Publication Date: 01/24/99
By: Tony Monterastelli
Headline: State targeting tool designer despite 30 years'...
Body:
PIC: (Greg Brown) Waterloo tool designer Larry Dettmer holds blueprints for one of his designs. The state Engineering & Land Surveying Examining Board has ruled that Dettmer practices engineering illegally. Dettmer, who has appealed the ruling, says the board's action could means the end of his business, PanDa Engineering.
WATERLOO -- Larry Dettmer exudes engineering competence.
A plastic pocket protector cradles a rainbow of pens protruding from his shirt pocket as he hunches over his latest blueprints. He can expound on how to build anything from motorcycles to Pringles cans.
But the state Engineering and Land Surveying Examining Board says Dettmer is a threat to public safety.
For more than 30 years Dettmer has designed tools, though not the hand-held kind. They are fixtures that hold together parts for welding and other manufacturing processes. Dettmer's one-man firm, PanDa Engineering, does such work for a handful of small machine shops in Iowa.
On July 16, 1998, the board found that Dettmer's designs pose a "risk to the public" because no licensed professional engineer supervises his work.
Dettmer now faces a possible fine and a board effort to shut his business down unless he hires a licensed engineer.
Hiring an engineer is not an option, Dettmer said.
"I couldn't afford it," he said. “I'm scraping by as it is." Dettmer has appealed the ruling to Black Hawk County District Court. A hearing is scheduled for Tuesday.
The board's action against Dettmer has other tool designers concerned that they, too, might be operating illegally.
"You will not find one licensed engineer in any tool shop in the state of Iowa," said one Northeast Iowa toolmaker who asked not to be named.
Commerce Department Director Roger Halvorson, who oversees the professional licensing, said the board targeted Dettmer only after a member of the public complained that he might be practicing engineering without a license.
No other such cases are pending, he added.
"The board doesn't initiate cases. It only responds to complaints," he said. "That's their number one role: protection of the public."
Irv Sorge, president of the Cedar Valley Manufacturers Association, said several members of his organization have designed tools for years without supervision from licensed engineers.
"Can it be dangerous? Yes, and so can driving your car," he said. "If they're going to pursue this, then we might as well close down Hawkeye Community College because none of the graduates will be able to get jobs because they are not licensed engineers."
Sorge said he is confused by Iowa's law on professional engineering practice. He questions why a small firm like PanDa Engineering should have to hire a licensed engineer to supervise while larger companies, such as Deere & Co., are exempt from the requirement.
Dettmer worked as a tool designer at Deere from 1977 to 1987, where he did the same work, legally, that the board now calls illegal.
At Deere an in-house "tool supervisor" had to approve each design before it went to production, Dettmer said.
"I don't think that any of them were licensed professional engineers. They had worked their way up by experience," he added.
Dettmer, an East High School graduate, apprenticed at Schoitz Engineering in Waterloo before attending a small college in Texas for three years. Although he studied engineering, Dettmer never graduated from college.
Yet Dettmer's training and experience have qualified him for design jobs with several Northeast Iowa manufacturing and design companies throughout the past 35 years. In 1996 he established PanDa Engineering.
Despite the hassles of board hearings, $6,000 in legal fees and the possible loss of his business, Dettmer said he doesn't feel angry or bitter at the board -- just confused.
"I'm not opposed to regulations if they serve some function or purpose," Dettmer said. "I just don't see an advantage to what they are trying to do."
Dettmer said he rarely does complicated design jobs because his business is a one-man operation.
"I get the crumbs," he said. “I don't have the resources to do the high-tech stuff."
As a result, Dettmer "over-designs" many of his tools to make sure they are strong enough for the job.
"I have never gotten into a project in which I had any concern for the safety of anyone using my design," he added.
Dettmer said he can't believe he is the only tool designer to run afoul of Iowa's perplexing law on engineering practice.
"If that's the law, then not just Larry Dettmer is illegal. We have a whole industry that is not in compliance with the law," Dettmer said.
RE: Mechanical Design Business
It would level the playing field.
Protection of the public does not only include protecting their physical safety due to preventing designs from failing, it also involves protection of the public financially by avoiding over designs that cost more than they should.
Dettmer admits that he over designs. Therefore he is admitting that he is costing his clients money where a proper design would be both sufficient and safe but economical as well.
He should not be able to simply change the name of his firm and continue to cost the public excessive amounts of money by over designing. He should be put out of business and be forced to follow the law and stop selling engineering services that he is not legally qualified to do so.
His argument that he should be exempt from the law because he cannot afford to follow the law is analogous to a trucker saying that he should not be forced to install brakes on his truck because he cannot afford to do so.
Licensed engineers doing design work and brakes on trucks are necessary and essential for public safety. They are required and the laws regarding them should be enforced.
Having a pocket protector full of pens and pencils does not make one an engineer. (I’m not an engineer but I look like one.) One is an engineer only by virtue of being a member of a professional engineering association and having the necessary qualifications and experience.
The state licensing board should be more proactive in shutting down all illegal engineering shops. It looks as if they have failed in their duty to protect the public as well.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Mechanical Design Business
Could you send me an email? I'd like to ask a couple questions.
pd@rev.net
RE: Mechanical Design Business
RE: Mechanical Design Business
RE: Mechanical Design Business
How do you explain the other company being exempt?
I do not see anything wrong with what this guy is doing. He is doing work for another company. There is no public involved. As far as overdesigning, this is fairly common and is called a safety factor. If a PE is not building in safety factors then they are posing a serious risk to the public. Its his customers choice to change companies if they feel he is costing them too much money by overdesigning (above and beyond normal margins).
(sorry I have to add this last paragraph since you stick by the PE so much) I believe you are in Canada. So the PE, the way I understand it, basically only means you have graduated from an accredited university and retained enough information to pass the test right out of college and you have worked under another PE for some time period. The only important item there is you have graduated from an accredited university. The rest, in my opinion, means nothing. Just because you worked under a PE doesn't prove a thing. Who is to say the PE you worked under has a clue?
The states at least require a test after your experience (in addition to the one before your experience). To me, the PE means more in the states than Canada.
The case above illustrates a prime example of the problems with PE requirements. They vary so much from state to state and country to country. Logically, this adds way more cost to the customer. Your multidisciplinary companies practice engineering all over the world. Imagine the cost related to staffing engineers who can work all over the world. Your a civil person so I like the idea of having a PE in that field since the customer usually has very little knowledge about engineering. So they can not really check up on your design. In the electrical world, you are not selling to the public and you are not working for the public. You almost always work for a company that has enough knowledge to call your errors and if you dont, you have safety agencies/inspectors to call your errors.
Anyway, the case, to me illustrates a lot of issues with the present system. It does not even come close to illustrating why we need a PE system.
RE: Mechanical Design Business
I cannot explain why the other company does not have licensed engineers on staff. It may be because of the US industrial exemption in that they are making a product not selling engineering services directly. I have stated numerous times that I feel that this is wrong and a large part of why engineering in the US has a lower status than other professions.
You are right I’m Canadian and we have a different system here. Here in Canada if you want to call yourself an engineer and practice engineering, you require licensure. No if ands buts or maybes. The industrial exemption does not exist here; it is a totally foreign concept. As far as your misunderstandings of our system, I will not even attempt to point out all the errors that you made in your description of the Canadian system.
I will point out that the Canadian system is totally run by the profession and not the politicians. In this area the Canadian profession is a true self governing and regulating profession, not as I understand the us system where the profession is regulated by the state and in some cases the same agencies that license tradesmen.
Just because his client is another company, he is still selling engineering services. The fact that these services are going to a company or to an individual is not material to the fact that he is selling engineering services. It is my understanding that in the US selling engineering services requires a PE. He violated this requirement and appears to still be violating this requirement.
In Canada that is called consulting and a separate license is required in most jurisdictions. This consulting license is only available to professional engineers.
If in the case of electrical design, you have noted that there are numerous checks in the process. I have two questions on this. Who certifies that the checkers are responsible and competent? How does having several people of who have no certificate of competence, look at a design guarantee that bad designs will not be implemented?
One can only assume that the interconnections on the east coast power grid were looked at by numerous people and look what happened there last summer.
I’m not saying that licensure will automatically correct these problems, I do feel that if you have to put your livelihood on the line every time you apply your seal that the result will be better designs and improved public safety.
If the client company knows that he is over designing then they would have some engineering expertise in house and then presumably not need the outside services as much. Yes I am aware of safety factors. One should only use those safety factors for the purpose that they are intended. They are intended to compensate for factors outside the control of the designer like variations in material properties, accidental overloads etc. They should not be used, as is the case here to compensate for the incompetence of the designer.
Like I said, just because he has a pocket protector full of different coloured pens, he is not an engineer.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Mechanical Design Business
""The board doesn't initiate cases. It only responds to complaints," he said. "That's their number one role: protection of the public.""
Ah, so they respond to complaints, but do not actively look for problems. Not quite my definition of protecting the public.
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Mechanical Design Business
It can be cost effective to overbuild a jig or tool. You can spend more of your customer's money analysing the forces to the nth degree than just overbuilding it. I don't think you can generalise and say that it is not a valid approach, particularly for one-off designs. One other advantage of an overbuilt system is that it is usually easy to modify it later.
I worked on a weight critical system where we measured the loads and designed to a safety factor of 0 for some of the subsystems - the cost of measuring those loads and testing the prototypes was enormous, but so was the pay-off.
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Mechanical Design Business
It’s like a traffic cop sitting in the station waiting for someone to complain about speeders. The cop should be out there with a radar trap if he wants to catch a speeder. (and protect the public from speeders!)
Perhaps that is why a lot of companies are breaking the law and practicing without proper licenses, they know that they can cruise along and as long as they don’t get turned in they will get away with it.
Doesn’t sound like proper regulation of the profession to me. It appears that all they would have to do is look in the phonebook to catch a lot of illegal practitioners.
I also agree that sometimes over building can be cost effective. It can simply sometimes be too expensive to do a full analysis for every small part. That is not the sense that I am getting from the story above.
“ Dettmer said he rarely does complicated design jobs because his business is a one-man operation.
"I get the crumbs," he said. “I don't have the resources to do the high-tech stuff."
As a result, Dettmer "over-designs" many of his tools to make sure they are strong enough for the job.”
Sounds like he over designs because he cannot properly design. Proper design techniques are not that expensive. It’s just 30 years ago that men were going to the moon based on slide rule calculations.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Mechanical Design Business
"I have two questions on this. Who certifies that the checkers are responsible and competent? How does having several people of who have no certificate of competence, look at a design guarantee that bad designs will not be implemented?"
The checkers, as you state, are highly sought after experts in their field. The fact that some may lack a PE is irrelevant since the PE is not reserved for experts. I would argue that the PE is more of a general license. So yes they know their stuff. If you choose to ignore them because they have no PE then thats your choice and simply shows your lack of understanding of the electrical world.
In the states, I can design and build whatever I want if I am selling to the public with NO PE. The company takes on the liability and depending on the makeup of your company, you may still be liable. There is NO PE requirements. This is the way it should be. Imagine the cost increases by requiring these ENGINEERS to get a PE license? Maybe thats one reason why things in Canada are so expensive. It is also my belief (working in the product design world and consulting world) that the product designers are way ahead of the game when it comes to knowledge. Maybe this opinion will change as I gain more experience with consulting type work.
I would appreciate your input on my vision of licensing requirements in Canada. Is it wrong? I am only repeating what another Canadian has stated. Here it is again "you have graduated from an accredited university and retained enough information to pass the test right out of college and you have worked under another PE for some time period." What is erroneous about that? Is that the requirements for a PE in Canada? In the US it goes like this; you graduate from an accredited University, take the EIT (FE) exam, work under a PE for a while, then take ANOTHER test to get your PE. The differences as I understand them between Canada and the US is the US requires another test above and beyond the EIT test where Canada does not. Where are the many errors you eluded too in this phrase; "As far as your misunderstandings of our system, I will not even attempt to point out all the errors that you made in your description of the Canadian system."
RE: Mechanical Design Business
Canada is not a more expensive place than the US. I have traveled through a lot of the US and have several friends and work acquaintances there. I also have several older relatives who spend winters in various parts of the southwest US.
According to the hamburger index http://www.oanda.com/products/bigmac/bigmac.shtml Canadian purchasing power is about 21% above the US equivalent. Our dollar is worth around $0.75 US. Most goods in our stores are about the same number of dollars as they are in the US so they are in fact cheaper than in the US. Currently our dollar is rising compared to the US dollar so this difference is narrowing.
One major area that supports this is prescription drugs. There are several multi million dollar companies that exist solely to provide low cost drugs from the Canadian market to the US market.
We do have slightly higher taxes than the US on similar incomes and spending habits. However out tax bills include free health care for ALL Canadians. Nobody is denied health care in this country.
As far as being a P.Eng in Canada you have two options. The first and most common is to graduate from an accredited university, work for four years under other P.Eng’s and then become accepted to the profession. During the internship there is some mandatory professional development activities that have to occur as well as the requirement for at least three references. (The second method involves a series of 21(?) exams instead of the accredited degree and additional experience. I only know one person who got his P.Eng this way.)
The theory in Canada is that the scope of the profession is simply too broad to use exams as some sort of proxy for professional competence. In the US a lot of areas of the profession are not adequately covered by the exams. In the electrical field I have heard that the exams are geared towards power generation and transmission and virtually ignore the areas of low voltage and controls.
Also in Canada the term ‘collage’ usually refers to community collages. These are basically trade schools where one can take training to become carpenters, cooks, clerical etc. They also include engineering technologists. These are individuals trained in providing support services to engineers like drafting, survey, inspections etc. They are not allowed to practice engineering in any way shape or form. Never have and never will. If a technologist wants to be a P.Eng they can take the necessary courses (some universities have accelerated programs for technologists) and then get a degree and become engineering interns and eventually P.Eng’s.
The Canadian system relies instead on ones performance over 4 years of undergraduate experience and then four years of development under other engineers.
The US system relies far too heavily on your performance on two exams as a proxy for professional competence. If you are a good exam taker than you can be an engineer. The sample questions that I have seen are of the nature of how much water will flow in this pipe. The real world professional problem is to determine how much water you require to be transported, to generate options in how to transport it and finally with due regard for economic reliability and other factors pick a type of pipe, size of that pipe, length of pipe, grade of pipe etc to solve the problem.
I guess we will never agree on the validity of the industrial exemption. What I do see is that it allows for anyone regardless of competency, training and experience to call themselves engineers. All they need is someone to hire them. They can start their own company and be the head design engineer and start manufacturing products. There is no protection for the public except whatever liability insurance they have. If they have no insurance and no assets there is no public protection.
We may not have much more protection by virtue of requiring all engineers to be licensed, it does however provide something more than nothing.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Mechanical Design Business
I have traveled to Canada on several occassions (I have relatives there) and I know first hand that, in general, items are way more expensive than the US (beer, cigarettes, motel rooms, etc, you know the important stuff). Maybe the taxes on these items are above normal so maybe not a fair comparison. However, others that travel their on a regular basis say this is not the case. Look at personal income tax. Sure you get free medical and maybe this all works itself out but I think the taxes are such that I could get three insurance policies for the amount of taxes coming out. (I pay around $240 for a family of four, including dental and vision).
As far as the prescription drug issue, I have to say the reason these drugs are cheaper is they are not FDA approved. Right or wrong, I dont know. I do know the drugs are way to expensive here but is laxing the requirements the solution? Depends on what they are.
You said "As far as being a P.Eng in Canada you have two options. The first and most common is to graduate from an accredited university, work for four years under other P.Eng’s and then become accepted to the profession. During the internship there is some mandatory professional development activities that have to occur as well as the requirement for at least three references." Yes, how is that different from what I said? Also, how is that better than the US? The US requires another exam. If there are no values in exams then throw your degree out the window because thats why you got it, you passed the tests. In the US you still have to work under a PE, same as Canada.
You said "The theory in Canada is that the scope of the profession is simply too broad to use exams as some sort of proxy for professional competence."
Whats the EIT test for then?
"In the US a lot of areas of the profession are not adequately covered by the exams. In the electrical field I have heard that the exams are geared towards power generation and transmission and virtually ignore the areas of low voltage and controls."
I have heard this too. This is also the case for the EIT exam. Why should a product design engineer care about transmission and distribution? Another problem with PE licensing.
I won't address the technologists degrees because I am in agreement with you on this. I am not an EET, I am an EE.
You said "The Canadian system relies instead on ones performance over 4 years of undergraduate experience and then four years of development under other engineers." The US has these same requirements in addition to another test. So if the Canadian system is better then by default does that mean the second test makes the system bad? I don't think so. That is simply illogical. We have the same requirements, time in job and everything in most states except Texas (that I know of).
As far as your last paragraph on the industrial exemption. I must say your comments here are simply wrong. There is probably more protection for consumers for 'products' than there is for work a consultant would do. You are wrong when you say "There is no protection for the public except whatever liability insurance they have. If they have no insurance and no assets there is no public protection." There is protection to the consumer. The product has been evaluated by a third party with no economic ties to the company (UL, CSA, TUV, NEMKO, etc). Remember seeing a CSA mark on almost anything electrical in Canada? Thats what the mark is for it is a reassurance the product is safe. On the PE side of things, technically only the interested party looks over the design. They all have economic ties to the decision to carry on with the design or not too.
Do you understand how a product gets from the design stage to market? While the product is being designed, consultation will be taking place with the end user and (consumer or another company) what ever agency the market requires an approval from and most of the time it is multiple agencies. When the product is prototyped, it is sent to one or more agencies (test houses) for a safety evaluation and in some cases a quality test to see if it does what it claims. They will expose the product to abnormal and normal conditions (high current, voltage, temperature, humidity, fire, etc) to determine the product is safe to use by the consumer. If it is not, it gets sent back for redesign or scrap. Now to top it all off, you have a customer that came to you (consumer or other company) with a set of requirements. If it is a company, they will generally request several samples for their own evaluation and often it will go through some of the same tests that the safety agency has done. So all in all, the "design" has went through a few different hands to assure its operation will be safe. To top it all off, a local inspector will come by and review the installation where this equipment is located. If he wants he can call the project. Now if the product does not do what it claims, people wont buy it and your companies reputation suffers (just like consultants). Now the way I see the consulting world, you may have peer reviews (done in product design world as well) and have to follow the local electrical code (just like a product designed for use where a local code is applicable). It seems to me their are way more checks to assure a safe product in the design world than their is in the consulting world. But thats just me. And this has been my stance all along that those that wish to make the PE license a requirement across the board simply do not understand engineering outside of their consulting world.
I better quit now before this post gets really long.
RE: Mechanical Design Business
As to the value or otherwise of PEs in industry exempt products, my feeling is that where a long prototyping, optimising and testing phase is involved then we don't "design to code" so there is no point in having a chief code monster to sign the design off.
Since prototyping bridges etc is not valid they have to be designed to code (ie, suboptimally in an absolute sense), so somebody has to make sure that the codes have been followed. Hence a PE.
I suppose the way I'd characterise it is that a car is designed by successive optimisation so that it meets a final vehicle-level specification (and test), whereas a bridge is (partly) designed so that each detail is correct so that the final structure does not have to be completely tested.
I guess you either believe the Big Mac index or you don't. Economists and me do. As of April 2003 it indicated that the Canadian dollar could buy 18% more Big Macs locally than the US dollar.
http://www.economist.com/markets/bigmac/displayStory.cf...
I must admit I had not realised that the usual course for a Canadian PE did not involve more exams, in fact it sounds very similar to the UK's IMechE MPDS approach to chartership, whch seemed reasonable to me.
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Mechanical Design Business
I am still waiting to hear why my summary of the Canadian system is wrong and still waiting to hear why the Canadian system is so much better than the US.
RE: Mechanical Design Business
I am glad to see that my involvment here has spured livly conversation all of which I am learning from. I am a designer and as acouple people mentioned about design cycles, I fill a niche (and all out here wanting to start this kind of business want to fill this niche) that the companies (customers) need ideas initial models and drawing information that they are not going to pay a higher dollered PE todo. In the end Mr. Dettmer had to change his name so he was not offering an engineering service. As a tool maker/designer and working in small shops in my past I have been asked to desing something to meet the goals at hand, built it and kept going. Some of these ideas were relegated by design reviews of the customers engineering staff, of whom the final stamp of aproval came from their resident tooling manager who was a guy about 56 yrs old coughing from to many cigerettes and had recieved his position by attrition. ( I not suggesting this is atypical of companies today but it sure is in alot of them) If it was tooling for in house use typically you are working with the company owner who is the type of person discribed above who was to ornery to work for someone else and had a good idea produced it and got lucky with some type of marketing then as his product niches died he had these machines setting around so he begines to sell tool design and manufacturing services.
I agree that end consumer products need the scrutiny of a design firm to let you know if it is going to be safe for the general public. To be a guy out here making models and creating drawings for companies with the abilities to disect what you present to them Why would I need to charge them for a service that they already have, by having to employ an in house PE?
Not to knock you folks with PE's but some of you dont want to the foot work needed to come up with an idea that comes across your desk for review. Besides I know very few PE's that WANTS to do all the design analasis and paper work required, have the ability to come up with a complex surface model that meets company standards for stability and robust modeling practices regardles of the software used. They know their talent is in the analizing the problem instead of producing good models and drawings. Isnt that why in the old board days you had Drafters?
Just my thoughts on this cool Thursday afternoon.
RE: Mechanical Design Business
How does *requireing* that design engineers have a PE to design low voltage consumer products help safety?
It doesn't. The mass of product coming into this country are engineered in China by sloppy cheap engineers that don't give a rat's ass.
I've been working on developing a few toys, as well as some other battery operated devices so I\'m fairly familiar with the market, and I have to say I am absolutely appalled by the crap being imported - one toy I found was made from a brittle acrylic that would shatter in a kids face when struck. Making all U.S. designers have a PE won't help that situation.
You don't need a PE to know how to follow good design practices, such as not using a brittle plastic when a polycarbonite is called for. And you certainly don't need a PE to design a keychain flashlight. I don't think you can "prove" that being a PE is as important as being diligent in these areas.
On the other hand, doing FEA on a roller coaster and certifying it's safety falls entirely in the hands of a PE.
So where do you want to draw the line? Should glass blowers be required to have a PE? I mean, they are creating consumer products that could break and cut someone, right? What about retail package designers? I mean, they make cardboard packages, and gosh, some consumer might get a paper cut on one.
Get real, Mr Canada man. It's ludicrous to think that every designer in the world need to have a PE. Definitely in situations where stress testing, FEA, and other direct safety related certification is required. But not for general design work, and not by a long shot.
Regards,
Andy
RE: Mechanical Design Business
RE: Mechanical Design Business
Remember they are basically looking for who to sue when the design is defective, so clueless customers get protected by legally having to go to PEs, companies that should know better get to decide for themselves. I'm not too sure what that says about architects?
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Mechanical Design Business
An update. I have reconfigured a product that is "old technology" and want to offer it for sale to the public. My initial sales to the public are to a sect of people whom cannot sue. I am sensing however from this conversation that before I can sell to others in the general public that I do have to have a seal of aproval from a P.E. My product will need a UL rating and have to meet EPA approval where applicable. Is the UL listing the same as a PE stamp of approval?
Norb.
RE: Mechanical Design Business
Dan
Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Mechanical Design Business
RE: Mechanical Design Business
The Amish cannot sue. It is against their religeous beliefs. Once you get to know a few of them and gain their trust they are the most honest people there are. and boy can they negotiate a deal.
Thanks buzzp However liability is my next area of understanding I need clarified.
Norb
RE: Mechanical Design Business
Dan
Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Mechanical Design Business
I do not recall any agencies which handle strictly mechanical designs as far as safety approvals in the US (but suppose strictly mechanical designs, no electrical, or becoming more and more rare). The Europeans have the CE mark which does include machinery directives for safety. VDE might be another mark which has machine safety addressed.
RE: Mechanical Design Business
MattP,
Generally, if you are an independent business entity and you do engineering and your product is a set of drawings (hard copy or electronic), then you need a PE. "Engineering" can be many things and not just design activities that require calculations. Many things are engineered with only partial calcs or even no calcs at all. To me, if someone hands you a hard drawn sketch and tells you to make a CAD model, that is drafting. But if you create something from scatch or make a modification to an existing design on your own initiative, that is engineering. Be advised that many states require that a PE be in charge of any work that they approve. They are not always allowed to review the work of others and approve it. It all depends on the particular state in question. As you have noticed from the discussions on this forum, the laws that regulate engineering are a patchwork quilt and are not readily interpreted. I meet people and companies who perform engineering in violation of state licensing laws. Even though it occurs, it is wrong and don't do it!
RE: Mechanical Design Business
I have read somewhere that (for consultants like scientist and such that do B to B) that you have the customer sign a waiver (paraphrasing) that indicates that you are not in charge of the designs and the customer is taking the design in good faith and is responsible for all actions against the designs. Can this put you in the clear?
Just curious…
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane