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Does democracy breed excellence
5

Does democracy breed excellence

Does democracy breed excellence

(OP)
I have been debating myself and I thought now of posing the same to you members. Ideally democratic climate should promote the path to excellence for there would be very few hurdles.But the results are not too often seen.

While in the not so democratic countries the pressures to achieve and excel is huge and you can find stars in all walks of life.

I invite your views on this aspect and thank you in advance for your contributions. It will help me in my thought process.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

As the thread is in Eng-tips I take it you mean excellence in engineering.

In a democratic society we have commercial pressure and that can also be huge, although we don't get executed if we fail to meet the deadline.  Some could be driven to suicides or become nuts as you can detect from reading this site.

Advance in human knowledge is possible because some individuals take a keen interest in what they do and not just to satisfy their employers or the state.  The free flow of information (apart from those with a commercial value), which is an essential feature of a democratic society, can foster the development of engineering excellence.  

Perhaps the most important aspect of the advance in engineering and technology is the market force of supply and demand.  If one's service and product can be traded or made available quickly and freely in an open market to satisfy a society's need the subsequent financial success can fuel the further development.  

Necessity is the mother of invention.  If you can find a good engineering solution for your people but are not allowed to trade or pass on freely then your excellence doesn't breed, does it?

Everything a democratic society can do can be achieved by a less democratic society except the speed is usually slower, although there must be exceptions like the AK47 rifle.  History has already confirmed that in the main the advance of engineering in the democratic world is always faster than a less democratic one unless you are talking about isolated examples.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

Democracy is a political process/ideology.  Other than beauracrats, it is unlikely to breed anything.  It is likely however, to allow individuals greater leeway to explore their personal or professional development.

Capitalism is an economic process/ideology.  It allows (theoretically) the market to determine one's success or failure.

I think that personal excellence is independent of either politics or economics for an individual (assuming that equivalent opportunity exists).  Perhaps overall there is a lower signal to noise ratio in a democratic society (greater opportunity for all) making the standouts harder to find.

Regards,

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

Democracy takes the task of stamping out all sparks of creativity and originality away from the government and hands that task over to the masses.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

(OP)
Historically you can find the developments which took place under Hitler, erstwhile Soviet Union and East European countries, and to this day in China, N Vietnam it is astounding. True the creativity is in the hands of these governments.
Whilst in a democracy the bureaucrats stifle progress or administer the wrong policies .This meets their personal agenda also their mentor's(read politicians).

Individually too distraction or slackness exists as there are no pressures to excel.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

As posed, your postulation is very ambiguous.  What is "a democratic climate"?  What is "excellence"?

Take for example the two democrocies of India and pre-China take-over Hong Kong.

In India the democratic beaurocracy imposes significant restraints, in the form of necessary permits and fees, on the ability to start a small buisness.  The Hong Kong government impsosed far fewer constraints on potential buisness developers.  The result is that Hong Kong spurred more potential economic development because it was easy to start, while India's economy is more stagnant.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

(OP)
I am from India and i run a small business unit. Most of the activities are now delicensed and trade is quite free. But preliberalisation period it was difficult.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

Hey am I not glad to fire the warning shot to state that my response is only good for the engineering excellence in a democratic society.

The argument can be very different if the excellence is in economics and commercial success.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

Ok, here is another example:

Taiwan is a democracy in that the legislative and executive branches of government are directly elected.

However students entering college are not allowed to freely choose which school they will go to, or what they will study (at least this was true about 10 years ago, may have changed now).  Positions were handed out based on the results of a nationalized college entrance exam.

If you scored well in math and physics you could be given a spot in an engineering or technical school.  Doesn't matter if you want to be an engineer.  If you want to study music, too bad, no music student spots avaiable to you, you can have this engineering spot, or do your compulsory military service now and try again later.

This could be considered as promoting a path to excellence, as it sound reasonable that students who test well in math and physics would make good engineers.

Or it could be considered as a path to resentment, as this policy may prevent YOU from doing what you want.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

MintJulep describes the system that operates in the UK and probably many other countries. You study certain subjects and are allowed further studies in those subjects you are good at. You're not allowed to go to the University you chose but apply to Universities. These Universities chose you if you meet their standards. After studying maths you can not suddenly say I want to study music. There will be no places for you in music school because there are more able people who can fill those available places, and rightly so.
As far as the political climate of a country goes. I think it matters little in any modern country for excellence to develop. Most of the best mathematicians in the world come from the old Sovet Union and India. Similarly there are many of the best writers, composers, engineers who came from the old soviet union. Similarly those that developed the space program came from fascist germany. These may be isolated examples but isn't excellence, by its nature, isolated examples?

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

I am amazed by Corus and Mintjulep posts.  It is universal that students compete higher educational opportunities with their academic achievements.  In a real life situation can anyone go to work for a company of his choice and disregard the fact that company doesn’t want him because a better candidate is already been hired?  Is there any sense for a music school to take on a student excel in maths but can’t read music and never play an instrument before or to force an artist to study electrical engineering instead of arts?  Surely it is up to the applicant to prepare the necessary qualification demanded by the relevant course instead of a free-for-all.  

The tennis champions do not start playing the game when they are 25.  Many started as soon as they could hold a racket.   Thus there is no point to force a talented musician to do engineering if he or she already ahead of everybody in music by working on it at a tender age.  I can’t talk about the Taiwan system as I know nothing about it (except it leads the world in PC components) but in UK one can’t go to a famous music school unless one can demonstrate some solid achievement in music.   

Life is just a big competition and people who can learn from their mistakes and work hard will eventually outperform the others and be given responsible positions and important duties.  It is the same in every society.  It is the same at every age.  People who can’t prove themselves but want to be successful can continue with their dreams.

Every country has its own education system and the consequence will take years to show itself.   Many of the examples quoted by Corus were originated from good education systems.  Japan is a good example. Their engineering flourished before (monarch system) and after (democratic) the World War two but in my contact with them I would suggest it has a lot to do with the way education is treated in their country.  The education here includes both in school and from family.

Opportunity is needed for any excellence.   With all due respect there could be difficulties for Monte Carlo to become the world leader in aerospace research (for lack of land and big funding) or for Bahrain to dominate downhill skiing in the winter Olympic (for being in hot climate never has any snow).

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

I've got to agree. Corus' 'explanation' of the UK university system is absurd. If you want to study music and maths at uni in the UK you can. My sister did.

I really don't understand what the original poster is angling at unless he wants to start working for a totalitarian regime. Demonstrably most effective innovations are made in capitalist/democratic societies.

Here's a list of some of the inflential products of the last century. How many of these were brought to fruition in the first instance  by non democratic/capitalist societies?

Cars
washing machines
refrigeration
telephones
mains electricity
television
mainframe computers
microchips
PCs

By my quick count: NONE


Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

You overlooked jet engines and rockets.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

arunmrao
Hitler had the benefit of quite a more free society allowing the development of engineering talent prior to his tyranny.  He just rode the wave that had started.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

Democracy and capitalism breed opportunity, including the opportunity for excellence to flourish and prevail.

Excellence dwells in the human spirit and will show itself even in non-democratic states; however, the most repressive regimes can suppress even the spirit of men and produce only pre-medieval misery.  Unfortunately, such places still exist in the 21st century.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

   Broadly speaking, 'open' societies throw people into the river and say "You should learn to swim, or else you may drown". 'Represive regimes' drag people to the riverbank and say "learn to swim or else I'll drown you!". The end result is the same.
   So what are the implications for engineering?
Inovation is a large part of engineering excellence, but by no means the only part. Sure, an individual's or organisation's imagination will be enhanced by their being allowed to be creative, but other factors contribute.
   Educational systems seem to be independant of political ideologies, soviet science was always highly regarded.
   The respect of society for an engineer's work is arguably higher (based on previous forum postings)in many non-anglo countries.
   Financial rewards are higher in the West.
   The quality and attitude of the work-force to excellence. This was the bane of soviet-era Eastern Europe, and of post-war England. (Do Jaguar doorhandles still fall off?)
   The availability of capital. In market economies you could maybe prove commercial viability, but a project of benefit to the State will get you funding anywhere.
   Free flow of information. Before we in the West get too self-congratulatory about this, think about your country's intellectual property laws, commercial confidentiality, academic jealousies, "possible military applications"...

   I believe that the best engineering is done by those working for the love of the project at hand. All else is relevant only insofar as it impinges on that particular project.

   Regarding the inclusion of 'cars' on GregLocock's list, how democratic was nineteenth century Germany?
   To expand 'engineering' from just 'invention', any list of the world's most impressive current engineering projects would have to have the Chinese Five Rivers dam at or near the top.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence


ChrisatEastAg,

I can't find anything on a search for a five rivers dam, but perhaps you meant the Chinese Three Gorges Dam.  Unfortunately, it is already being reviled as a disaster waiting to happen.  It's elevation to a list of the world's most impressive projects would be technically correct, but its impressiveness may well turn out to be the scope of its human and environmental damage rather than its enormous bulk.

The history forum at this site has a thread on this dam.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

arunmrao;
Are you kidding?
Excuse me but I cannot tell where your from? Maybe outside the USA? //"Does Democracy breed excellence"//
You bet your sweet ass it does. But more than that, it's components of free enterprise or capatilization is what makes this country, the USA (or Democracy) what it is.
You only have to look at the list:
GregLocock List's
Cars
washing machines
refrigeration
telephones
mains electricity
television
mainframe computers
microchips
PCs
I will add, no sequence.
The Transister
Mass assembly (Ford)
lightbulb
rubber
flight
Materials
supersonic flight
lazer technology
nano technology
Vacuum technology
Medical Technology

Are you asking weather this could be done if a dictator was in power. I think not.
What we have here is a system that has worked for more than 227 years, longer than any other type of government by the people system. (We will not split threads about the manarcs) Even still they are a democracy. I digress,.
Here in the USA where this year, 100 years of flight is being acknowlaged, The WEB, Data aquisition/control, Outer Space Infrared Telescopic Recepiton, High thrust jet engines, Critical alloys used in jet propulsion, chemical etching, Vacuum deposits, cristal/silicon growth. many, many more that I cannot name.
Would these inventions or discoveries/developments have been evolved in a society DIFFRENT from this? I think not.
If you are in the USA, I hope you appricate what oppertunities you have here and what you can achieve here if you apply yourself, its really up to you. We want you to succeed it helps us all to gain.
I'll ask you where is the patent office in Pakistan and Irac, what was the last patent they issued (if any). What knowledge did they develope that is contributing to a better life.   
   
I Wish You Well

pennpoint
    
   

 

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

Iraq was the place where civilisation began and they invented writing, of which without either you would never have had cars etc.
Pakistan or India to be more exact invented algebra, trigonometry, were the first to discover how the planets moved, invented chemical processes, dyes, and chemical colours, and were the first to theorise about gravity.
All of these things have contributed to a better life for the world, with the possible exception of algebra.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

arunmrao

One of the problem here is the use of English by different nationals.

Is it possible that you mean "More democracy is better for excellence?" or could you be think along the line "Does less bueaurcracy or state control bleed excellence?"

It is a pretty much a clear cut case that the democracy bleed excellence faster in quantities than any non-democractic system, although some may still argue that this may not be always true in quality.  One can always regard the discovery of fire is more important than the invention of computer.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

I don't believe it to be a matter of democracy as much as a matter of liberty.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

Just my $.02

Our system allows unfettered opportunity for excellence and success. You are or can be anything you want, using your own methods, planning and hard work. On the other hand you can try hard and fail. Democracy is not a guarantee but a wonderful opportunity to try.

The USA was developed and is perpetuated by the imagination, dreams, and innovation of a hard working citizenry. We will continue to succeed in spite of the faceless cowards from other parts of the world sneaking up behind our backs and bombing us.

THETICK: You are sooooo right  --- It's LIBERTY, FREEDOM and those who criticize would love to see those things dashed to the ground.

AMERICA (and Democracy anywhere) is the best. We have our problems but they will be solved in time by the same innovation, imagination and hard work that made us great from the onset.

AS mentioned in a previous post Iraq, India and Pakistan as being the dicoverers of several critical disciplines.

Please tell me; if they are proficient in these areas, why do they want to attend our universties to learn to apply the processes? Also, Why are they constantly at war within their own borders and with their close neighbors?

I say to those who think their system is better, PLEASE STAY WHERE YOU ARE and suceed there if you can. DON'T come here to criticize us try to change what we have to fit your own philosophies. If you don't like it here go home.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

India's national language is in fact english and if they do go abroad for their studies then, for those that can afford it, they tend to go to english speaking countries such as the USA and the UK for engineering courses, as far as I am aware.
Democracy doesn't play all that much part in excellence. Certainly the Soviet Union were the first to put a man in space and their rocket engines are used today by NASA.
In fact if you look at architecture/engineering then where the greatest examples have been built is under an authoritarian regime. Examples would be the great wall of china, the pyramids, my garden wall.
To answer ietech's last point, I like England but I may go to Portugal or France, haven't decided yet.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

Corus: I hope you find something there you don't want to change or criticize. Go with God and enjoy. While you are ther don't judge the society. ENJOY IT AND LEARN.

"When in Rome do as the Romans"

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

ietech, I'll be going by British Airways I think.
The romans, under their emperors, were another example of excellence under tyrannical power with their engineering of aquaducts,  saunas, and general architecture. They also had sewage systems but I think this was first developed by the Minoans for their rulers.
Generally, where there is a need and a means then great things will be achieved, regardless of the society it develops in. If you've read that as a criticism of the USA then there's nothing more I can add, tenha um dia agradável.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

corgum,
       Yes, I meant the Three Gorges dam (dunno where five came from, sorry).
   Anyway, it's a good case study for this particular thread. Is there more "opportunity for engineering excellence" in China, where a visionary project is marred by beaurocratic corruption, an apathetic labour force and questionable safety, environmental and social assessments? Or, for example, in Australia, where a project of this magnitude would not get past the concept stage without demonstrations in the streets, High Court challenges, appeals to the U.N. etc etc.
   Any major project will have it's detractors, and in an open society those tend to be very loud and increasingly unscrupulous. Democratic governments don't like criticism, so good proposals can get canned on political rather than valid scientific grounds. Ah, if only the world was run by engineers...

   Incidentaly, is Cuba still the pioneer of laser eye surgery?

   And just a reminder for the 'love democracy or leave it' crew:
   "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."    Voltaire

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

I don't think I said "Love it or leave it" I don't agree with that. I merely suggest, if you are a guest in another country you should be just that. You wouldn't go to dinner at someones house and criticize the way they set the table.
If you are unhappy here then it follows that there must be someplace you will be happier.

ALL ciitizens of ANY country should be vigilant about the way their gov't. is doing things. Their thoughts should be allowed to be expressed freely even if you don't agree. In America we can do that without reprisal. (at least for now)
In the USA we have this freedom, even visitors have this freedom.

Yes, the Romans did achieve excellence in some sreas. They were also one of the first democracies to fail, due to excessive greed and arrogance.

Keep in mind that much of what India has achieved is directly due to British influence when they were in power there.

So NO don't "Love it or Leave it" just find a place where you can find happiness and satisfaction in your life.

Yes, Cuba and laser eye surgery, what else have they offered the world under the current gov't?

I think the list for Americas'innovative engineering is far longer and encompasses more areas than all of the others mentioned in this thread totalled together. We have only been at it for 200++ years.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

This is not the place to air one's political view but since the subject is linked to democracy and country names were mentioned I feel I should point out that democracy is not the best thing since slice bread and certainly not always the best system for every country .

I would urge our American professionals to be mindful that democracy is just a name for a government sysem.  It is how the system is being enforced that matters.  We can have a very happy and prosperous country with dictorship if the ruler cares his people more than himself. In a populated society where there is a lot of illiteracy and little communication an authoritarian regime could be more a more efficieny form of government until the citizens beome educated and are aware of the outside world.
It is a fundamental mistake to force democracy down the throat of everybody just because it works in America.  America was only a day or two without electricity in August and and all hell broke loose.  It became an international news.  Just think of many poor Iraqis without electricity, water, jobs, food and future since the second Gulf war. We can apply the democracy equally to everybody but can we apply the same standard of welfare to them?  

Democarcy is a equitable way of sharing resources of the world and it works well when there is plenty to go round.  If America has 10 times more population and only 1/10 times of land (and natural resources) they may be able to understand the difficulties of implementing democracy.  If this is difficult to imagine then think of the gasoline price.  Many engineers outside USA have to pay several times more for gasoline and have to drive cars several times smaller in engine capacity than the Americans.  They can't do the same thing as the Americans and in fact Americans can't do it either but they keep the system going until there is no more oil left.

One's meat is another's poison.  Many countries want the American free way of life but their own background must be taken into consideration.  This is equally true when we come to apply engineering and rate what excellence is to us.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

BBIRD

You are correct this is not the place and the original post should have been deleted at the onset. It's not engeneering related. I have noticed in several posts of yours that you are not reticent about expressing your political views on several occasions --- why stop others?

Yes, Democracy IS the best thing since sliced bread, for America --- I am not trying to say that it is right for all people and geographic environments. No one mentioned forcing our way down anyones throat. I am trying to  say to all those in the world who constantly bash America (a republic) and Democracy --- STOP BASHING.

If you don't like the political posts that some professional engineers put on the forum then don't participate and delete the post as in-appropriate. It seems that you still were interested enough to post your views even after you stated in your first sentence that it's not the right place.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

Bbird:
re: Democarcy is a equitable way of sharing resources of the world...

Do explain, please.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

I am not criticising anybody's political view at all.  It is the other way round.  I just put my resevation upfront because I was committing the same mistake myself knowingly.  This allows others to dismiss my view as they so wish because my message is declared clearly as a matter of opinion and not engineering knowledge.

From my experience most people want democracy but circumstances can prevent them from replicating the American system.  A compromise is often struck.  Most countries have some degree of democracy and it is just a matter of how free relative to the States.  

To respond to TheTick's question I believe democracy by its very nature would permit freedom and equal rights to individuals and this can make greed and selfishness unpopular as everybody can voice his opinions and objections.  People can become very wealthy and able to enjoy excess in an open and democractic society but could be criticised and look upon as social outclass, especially while their fellow citizens are suffering.  In contrast with an authoritarian regeme wealth and excess are excluded to the privileged few in power while most are having trouble to make ends meet.  There are still such examples in some Middle East countries.  Thus I think democracy is an equitable way to share our resources.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

BBird, your points are well stated and I respect your opinion. As a matter of fact, an opinion is about all a person can have regarding politics, even when it is related to engineering and the gov't impact on it. Our opinion will determine the way we vote. Thus our only way to change any policy is either belong to a huge special interest group and/or VOTE for representives who are sympathetic with yours or similar points of view.

I think all of the opinions posted, whether I agree or not have an impact not only on engineering but on all areas of our society and will ultimately determine whether we succeed or fail.

Usually the person/issue with the most votes wins (except in Florida)lol

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

(OP)
Sorry I could not participate in the thread as I was away on tour. This is a great response that I have received. I do not want to color this forum with politics or issues not related to engineering. I respect your sentiments and views. I just felt that this might be affecting our lives in some way or the other where the best in us does not come out due to external factors not in our control.

US pattern of democracy is not followed every where and there are variations. Though essentially the government is "of the people,by the people and for the people". But in between comes the bureaucracy a legacy left behind by the Britishers which is followed even today. Though in  post
WTO era this should have become irrelevant.

I am not being critical of any government or people,but I am exploring ways of improvement at least for the next generation to be better than mine.

I shall try and respond individually to all who have participated and made known their views.

Thanks once again.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

All things in moderation, including democracy. The US constitution moderates (limits) both the democratic and non democratic aspects of the US government thus resulting in the only remaining super power. There have been other forms of government that have existed during the same time and made excellent technological progress but eventually have self destructed or been so abusive that the rest of the world destroyed them. What should be looked at as the first motivator for a society's development is nationalism, not necessarily the form of government. Unmoderated nationalism can be self destructive as well.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

In my opionion people from other contries realized that if they work hard then they can easily come to a better country and be successful. I think that some Americans do not realize their full potential becuase they don't have too. While people from other countries work harder because they realize it is easy to study rather than work in a field or factory. So they work hard and America welcomes them in and we benefit from thier work and they benefit by being able to come to America.

I'm not saying that America is the best country in the world. I'm just saying that is is easy to be successful here compared to other countries.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

(OP)
China has successfully launched a manned space flight with indigenous technology and India is on the threshold of doing it. This was the exclusive domain of US and Soviet Union.Now this barrier too is broken.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

So, they've reached the 20th century just in time for the 21st?

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

Are there any democratic countries remaining out there?  I learn something new every day!

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

In fact democracy, in the form of a universal franchise, is only a recent event and it could be argued that many of the world's greatest achievements were made under a selected electorate or in the case of emperors/dictators with no electorate.
China's achievement in sending a man into space cannot be undervalued when you consider that they didn't have the help of scientists from other countries, such as europe.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

They had Bill Clinton's help in obtaining all manner of previously secret U.S. technology.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

If Clinton gave them supercomputers, as I've read, then surely with Windows 3.1 it would have crashed? Or did the pilot have a Launch button and also Ctrl,Alt,Delete to press?

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

corus writes: "China's achievement in sending a man into space cannot be undervalued when you consider that they didn't have the help of scientists from other countries, such as europe."

It is being reported, at least in the USA that the Capsule was a modified Soyuez design, and that Soviet Astronauts were instrumental in their training. True or not, at least that is what is in the newspapers.

Even so, it is a great achievement for China!

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

It sounds like there is a common belief amongst citizens of so-called "democratic" and technologically advanced nations, that great things cannot be accomplished without the latest whizz-bangs, computers and help from "smart big brothers" !?!?!  What a load of bunk!  Have we all gotten so proud and inflated resting on our laurels of cushy titles and degrees and salaries, that we forget just exactly HOW most of the great achievements have been made?  I'll tell you . . .  it has been with hard work, little glory hunting, and a sharply intuitive and inquisitive nature that we all possess.  Sad that it seems to grow rather dull when the modern crutches are so used to shore up the un-exercised brain!  To close my friday morning tirade, democracy has nothing to do with it.  I believe necessity, influences (reward or threat), and the unquenchable drive for us humans to achieve the un-achievable is what drives excellence!  Governments can certainly help or hinder to a degree, but they're no "magic bullet" in the formula.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

There are somew who refuse to let technology dull their senses and skills.  Fortunately, those people will always be among us, and they are the ones who contribute to our progress, regardless of whatever political system is attempting to shackle or yoke them.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

RE: Does democracy breed excellence

The chinese going into space must have been a
upsetting to the Russians on the Mir space station as they ordered a pizza.

corus
http://www.corusresearch.com

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