110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
(OP)
A high-tech company is planning to build a manufacturing facility, when in full operation, will consume 220MW of electricity. The manufacturing process is very sophisticated involving precision control and manipulation equipment and high energy use at the same time. A black out would cause extensive damage and losses.
If a power outage does occur, the company wants to have at least half of the electrical power capacity available within the plant, or 110MW, to keep the plant running at reduced capacity and minimum losses. The question is how to build this 110MW of emergency power ?
The advice they currently received is to use 55 Diesel Generators, each rated 2MW, which is less than ideal --- the facility needs to be a multi-story building where space is a premium, let alone the high civil and mechanical costs.
What would you recommend ? Would you recommend gas turbines running in hot standby ? with DGs as black-start power ? What size machines would you recommend ? They must be able to have the generators picking up the load 10 to 15 seconds after the blackout.
They must be prepared to sustain a blackout lasting a week to 10 days.
Being a hi-tech company, the facility may be obsoleted in 5 to 7 years so they are not interested in investing in a utility class generating plant that may last 30 years.
Your comments will be welcomed.
If a power outage does occur, the company wants to have at least half of the electrical power capacity available within the plant, or 110MW, to keep the plant running at reduced capacity and minimum losses. The question is how to build this 110MW of emergency power ?
The advice they currently received is to use 55 Diesel Generators, each rated 2MW, which is less than ideal --- the facility needs to be a multi-story building where space is a premium, let alone the high civil and mechanical costs.
What would you recommend ? Would you recommend gas turbines running in hot standby ? with DGs as black-start power ? What size machines would you recommend ? They must be able to have the generators picking up the load 10 to 15 seconds after the blackout.
They must be prepared to sustain a blackout lasting a week to 10 days.
Being a hi-tech company, the facility may be obsoleted in 5 to 7 years so they are not interested in investing in a utility class generating plant that may last 30 years.
Your comments will be welcomed.






RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Instead of running combustion turbines in hot standby, has any consideration been given to partial self-generation with a load shedding scheme? (the critical lines would never even see the outage) [possibly using 3 to 4 aero-derivitive CT's]? [I don't know how fast these start, although 15 seconds sounds not long enough]
Or, since this is a "high-tech" firm, any consideration for a fuel-cell application? [Might even be some research $$$ available to reduce the project costs..]
You might also visit with some of the "micro-turbine" suppliers (they'd love to serve this), but, again, you'll need a significant number of them to get 110 MW...
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Just build a prime generating plant using turbines rated 25, 50 MW with one or two redundant units and diesel for black start and lifesaftey loads!
No point having a 110MW standby plant. On the contrary work out a deal with the utiltiy co to sell back excess power.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
[1] There was not a lot of confidence in this gen station in the hands of this bureaucracy --- its very own 'survivability' in the event of a blackout.
[2] The country has seen a number of IPPs and Co-gens, they seem less reliable than the government utility, which the IPP blames on the 'regulations' and operating conditions they were put under the government utility.
[3] The government utility says there is no cooling water available for a power plant.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
[1]"We are not power plant people, our focus must be our hi-tech work. Why do we want to build and operate a power plant for 30 years ?"
[2]"Then how about finding a 'power plant people' [IPP] and sign a contract with them to use their generated power ?" Fine, but they have to be 'competitive', and we may close the facility in 5 to 7 years ...
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
You have the alternative of strengthening the connection with the utility to improve the reliability of the utility's supply to you. This will depend on economics: how far the main grid substation is and how strong it is electrically.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
However, any thoughts on gas turbines that can pick up loads in 10 to 15 seconds ? or, failing that, 30 seconds ?
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
I work only as a civil guy in the power industry and here is my observation.
I think there is a huge problem if you insist 110MW within 10 to 15 seconds response time. At this output the nearest I came across is from spinning a hydro set at sychronising speed in air (empty casing) and then open the inlet valve to let the water through in 10 seconds.
My colleagues advise me that aero-derivative gas turbines (off airplanes) are the fastest but you are still looking at minutes. You can get one gas turbine to supply the full 110MW but it is unlikely avaialble from the lightweight aero-derivatives. Commercial GT sets can go up to 250MW but they are infrequent.
The idea of 55 sets of 2MW high speed diesel generators seems possible and certainly give the power within the specified time but you will have one hack of a job to sychronize the 55 sets. The integration of the standby power to plant main switch boards must be planned well ahead. It also seems to me the emmissions from the protracted standby power generation of 110MW in space-restricted zone may present some environmental issues.
I believe the most likely successful solution would be to package your need in integrated blocks of power to make up for the 110MW using different generating sets at different response times.
From my consulting engineering background it appears that professional help is unavoidable in your case. My company helps clients to install all kinds of power generation (I personally involved up to 4000MW) and transmission systems and is major player worldwide. You will need to seek advice from a company (even if it is not us) that has experience at least in diesel sets, gas turbines, electrical control, supply stability, economics, civil work, structures and enviornmental engineering.
If you need assistance formally I can put you in touch with the right engineers.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
I personally think that the solution will be best with at least two portions of Power Generation Partial power you can take from utility company and for the essential power you have to set up a Power Generation. Like in yr case you have requirement of 250 MW total, combined on 110 Essential & 140 non Essential loads. If you can set up an agreement with some power producer (IPP) to provide your essential power and get the rest from utility (Best way will be through HV Net work (110,132 or what ever transmission is there). And set up distribution in such a way by using Intelligent load management scheme that in case of failure of one source you can the load management scheme can shut down the normal load within 3-4 seconds and the couplers between two sources can connect the load buses togather.
The details can be further workout with some good consultation in yr country.
The other option we had worked for one of the suphisticated chemical plant power solution was loop in Loop out arrangement with Utility company. The No.s of circuits are normally connected from Power stations to the distribution grids and most of them supplying to the buses which can be coupled at load grids. ( different configurations for different locations) If you can have the option to connect your consumer Grid from one of the circuit break in such a way that one of the feeder you will get from Generating station and other you will get from the distribution Grid then you will have quite secure condition. The only chance of failure will be in the case when utility loss the whole Grid.
Hope this will be help full for you,
Regards,
aali
%-
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Paralleling for capacity is just about out of the question given the 10-15 second response time you're looking for. It takes time for gensets to parallel. For any quantity of units in parallel, you're probably talking minutes, not seconds, at best. Increasing the size & reducing the quantity of paralleled units will help.
Paralleling for redundancy (not capacity), is a great idea, though.
Breaking the generation system down into smaller separate chunks which pick up only small portions of the load will increase the response time. But possibly at the cost of reliability.
I agree that agreements with the utility to provide reliable power should be rejected. They appear to make great economic sense, but can only lower reliability. Similarly, I'd reject continuous long-term prime generation as an option, unless you go completely self sufficent (2N generator redundancy or better), I'd be too scared that the utility capacity would not be there in a pinch when you needed it.
If you did decide to go prime generation, only then would I say that waste heat recovery made sense.
Turbines generally don't make sense for standby applications.
Fuel cells don't yet seem to make sense in any application (unless marketing is playing a BIG role).
Can you back off on the 10-15 seconds? That would help a LOT. Maybe cooling water capacity can be increased to provide a longer duration of emergency cooling prior to chillers coming back on line.
Good luck.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
I would check the load the company is proposing. 220 MW sounds very large. I have designed three chip plants (one of which is still one of the 10 biggest in the world.) The biggest connected load on any of them was less than 30 MVA.
I would bet a large lunch that 220 MW would power ever chip plant (and the ancillary support plants) within this area. That would include three large Intel plants, one IDT plant, an LSI wafer fab and several others.
It takes a very detailed review to determine what tools and equipment in a plant can take a power outage and for how long.
The first thing I would recommend is separating life safety from standby power. Life safety is the power needed to run the exit lighting, fire detection and protection, and those devices needed to get people safely out of the building. In a chip plant this could include systems and component not found in a "normal" facility including some tools that might release poisonous gases and the components in the gas distribution system as well.
The rest of the system is not legally required stand-by power. Everything else in the plant needs to be evaluated and to determine the consequences of that particular device loosing power.
Loosing power can result in loss of product in process or contamination of the "clean room" part of the facility; both can be very expensive.
Here are a couple of examples of where we have saved the requirement for "emergency" power in the past.
1.Many tools have more than one connection point for more that one level of power. They may accept a short outage for 480-volt power but require an uninterrupted 120-volt source. Look at each tool to see what it needs to keep operating, shut down with out loss and decide which of the above is acceptable (it may be neither).
2.) Clean room fans can sometimes be shifted to 1/2 speed and use less power in a power loss. It may be possible to turn 1/2 of them off if they have a common plenum.
I put "emergency" in quotes above because if you survey production and operations people everything they have (including their coffee pot) is "emergency".
Typically chip plant require the following systems:
1.) 480 volt on DG back-up
2.) 480 volt on CPS (CPS are typically fly-wheel or Holec gensets.
3.) 480 volt on UPS (no interruption)
4.) 120 volt on DG back-up.
5.) 120 Volt on UPS.
6.) 4.16 kV -may be needed on DG (essential chillers may be 4.16 kV or 480v).
I would also recommend "training" all electrical systems. That is dividing them in two separate systems ( "trains" or "divisions"), each of which will function alone and in theory keep 1/2 the plant running.
If you really need 220 MWs, gas turbines are the cheapest, your would still need some Diesel generators for loads that need to be picked up in 10 seconds or so.
Where is the plant? There are several threads going on in eng-tips.com about jobs going overseas. I may be shot for offering this limited advise.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Then, two options:
1. Provide 50% UPS and 50% cooling in each cell, total 100% load equals 100% of genset rating.
2. Provide 100% UPS on one genset, provide 100% cooling on another genset.
Parallel lots of generators together, but provide bypass breakers around the paralleling gear. All generators are normally in bypass, picking up only its own dedicated cell's load. Normally, no need for instantaneous paralleling, all gensets would be up to speed within about 10 seconds.
In the event of a genset failure, only then would paralleling need to be attempted.
Better have some good long talks with your generator and switchgear vendor before you try that one out, though.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
First of all, what I did not elaborate is that they cannot withstand more than 10 milliseconds of loss of voltage. That is why there will be a UPS totalling 110MW bridging between the utility power and the generators. The UPS can last 30 seconds at full load, 60 seconds at half load.
You said :
Breaking the generation system down into smaller separate chunks which pick up only small portions of the load will increase the response time. But possibly at the cost of reliability.
This is what they are thinking --- breaking down the essential loads into 10 MW blocks and run 5 generators in a bus. The other thought is --- to use the UPS to provide a sych signal for the generator to start and sync. Question, do you guys think this will keep all the 11 groups of gen's synchronized ?
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Assuming the demand off 220MW is accurate (please read BJC's comments carefully), and you require to maintain 110MW of emergency power, then I don't believe any method of conventional generation in standby mode will help. The possibility of starting, synchronising and controlled loading of 110MW in less than 15 seconds is positively mind boggling. Attempting to do it with 55x2MW diesels is, in my opinion, impossible.
You can get multi-MW UPS systems, but I've never heard on any UPS going up to 110MW. Physically it would be absolutely enormous.
You are faced with the solution of running 110MW of generating plant in parallel with the grid all the time. Should the grid infeed trip, you can then maintain you emergency demands with the assistance of some fast acting load shedding. However, you are now into the realms of becoming a base load generator, which as a precision manufacturer is possbly not your field of expertise.
It would be advisable to consider types and size of plant. You would not want one generator, since failure or maintenance of that would make you entirely dependent on the grid again. Conversely, you would not want to be running 55x2MW generators in this mode, the maintenance would be enormous.
If you have requirement for process heat (either on your site or on others nearby) you could consider cogeneration plant - something like 4x30MW gas turbines with heat recovery. If you don't, then base load plant operating on cheapest fuel such as heavy fuel oil or coal.
When you consider the difficulties, it may provoke you to review the problem :
1. Are the power estimates realistic.
2. Is the "uninterruptible" requirement actually that demanding.
3. Can the problem be solved by greater levels of reinforcement from the grid.
Hope this helps ... but I bet is doesn't really.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Can someone here gives us an indication on the number of staff needed to run a 110MW generation?
The fuel system for supplying 110 MW generation will be substantial. Even gas is right at the door step some kind of conditioning station will still be needed to provide the throughput needed by the gas turbines.
Currently cost to the owner of building a single cycle GT station is about US$400 per kW if he has fuel pipeline at the door step.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
You are no doubt an old hand at these hi-tech plants. Then you would know that these very secretive guys usually bark up very high requirements for 'electrical pipes' and then settle down to earth later. However, even if the actual requirement is half, it is still a giant system and all the discussions we had so far would still apply.
You must also know that these hi-tech guys always want the plant built yesterday, so you do not have time to engineer it right, as you indicated, going through all the loads and group them according to your meticulous classifications.
They usually just copy what they built the last time ... You should know that well ..
This is probably why it is less expensive for them to over-spend on UPS and emergency generators than taking the time to do it right as you suggested .. [The process guys are not available to you for this kind of analysis for IP protection reasons ..]
This plan is for one CUP for at least 2 phases, why the 110MW.
Almost all the latest fabs in Asia has the 1st floor completely occupied by gen sets and dynamic UPSs, making them looking like a power plant from the outside. They usually have up to 20 gen sets, and up to 10 sets of DUPS.
Exporting jobs ? The biggest fab design house is in Europe and they are all over Asia in each major cities. US investment in the chip semi industry overseas is a very small part of the market.
I would agree that the software migration to India is totally another matter ...
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Simple cycle GT is possible, and at £400 per kW sounds not too expensive, But running costs will be high with an efficiency of less than 35% (even if gas is cheap and plentiful).
Soembody commented that aero-derivative GTs are fastest, and I dispute this. Aero-derivatives are typically relatively lightweight in construction, and don't like having rapid or large step load changes stuffed on them. Faster and more robust GTs are the industrial types (e.g. try http://www.industrial-turbines.siemens.c...) but these are naturally more expensive.
Regarding number of staff, it depends upon type of plant, fuel, maintenance contracts etc. The problem here seems to be that the customer only wants the plant to last a few years, so may be buying used plant, so warranties etc. may not be available.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
I agree that the big industrial turbines handle step load changes better than the small aero-derivatives, but they have a long start-up time. The aero engines can be at synch speed much more quickly than the frame machines, but as you say, do not like big load steps. For example, our MW-701DA's (170MW shaft output industrial turbine) have a 20min acceleration sequence to get to synch speed of 3000rpm, and then another 5min to get to 110MW on the fast load rate. For comparison, the GE LM6000 aero-derivative we use as a black start turbine can be up and accepting load in less than half that time.
Both are too slow for this application, unless a source to hold up the load for a few minutes can be provided. 110MW off a UPS? That is going to be *big*.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
I've seen people size UPS systems for the power supply ratings of the computers they backed up which is not realistic.
If the power requirement is accurate and outages are really that unacceptable, then cogeneration is your only option from a technical/maintenance/reliability standpoint.
Good luck in your quest for an answer, this is a tough requirement to meet. It is not feasible to have 110MW on tap at the flip of a switch soley for backup purposes.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Not if you break it down to 10 or 20 MW chunks. which are currently running very well in wafer fabs in USA and Asia.
Part of my question is the 'wisdom' or 'risk' in breaking them down to 10 to 20 MW sizes and 'divide and conquer'.
Thus my question about practicality of synchronizing these many chunks after they have survived the black out.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Can you provide maker name and website ? Thanks
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
See if you can reduce or eliminate the need to synchronize. Do you really need to synchronize ANY of your generators? How far will tie breakers or automatic transfer switches get you?
Regarding the amount of power: It doesn't surprise me at all. I'm guessing this is a half-million to one-million square foot carrier hotel, network access point, or similar. That would give a total emergency power density of about 110 to 220 w/sf, and a UPS power density of about 50 to 100 w/sf. That would be a big facility with moderate power densities. MANY of these were being built in 1999-2002, although they currently have varying rates of occupancy. MANY third-world countries STILL have an immediate need to develop such facilities. Don't be too put off by the above skepticism, I was personally involved on a very similar project in Brazil.
There's one sticking point where my above guess does not match up with your project description: There's not too many SINGLE tenants who would occupy the total 1,000,000 sf, usually such installations are multi-tenant. However, usually, in multi-tenant installations, the tenants will absolutely NOT share their generators with other tenants or the landlord, they all want to own & maintain their own generator systems. That would mean something like (10) 11MW systems rather than (1) 110MW system.
The other really weird thing about the description is that only half of the power is considered critical -- why not al of it? Something doesn't ring true there. Is the factor of 2 due to 2N redundancy or something?
Some other thoughts:
Natural gas should generally NOT be considered as a backup source, there's too great a likelihood of simultaneous failure of gas & electric utilities. Propane storage can be used to circumvent that, but propane brings a whole slew of headaches with it -- not the least of which being that big propane tanks make for great bombs.
I'd almost guarantee that diesel is the way to go. At .07gph/kW, you're burning 7700gph at full generator load. For 24 hours, that's only 185,000 gallons, not unmanageable. Two weeks' fuel though, at 2.6 million gallons, starts to get a bit out of hand.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Sounds like a fun job.
If thats the load you really have I'd bust it up in small sections and keep them simple. I would not try to synch all 55 generators. Put 6 on a buss and use 10 busses. Keep it as simple as possible. Breaking it down will make it easier to engineer, install and operate. You can build it as the plant is finished out.
All in all it sounds like a job that mere money and time will fix.
Figure out how much real estate and money you need and go.
The Fairbanks Morse opposed cylinder engines are good for up to 3 MW. They have been around for years. With an air start system they will pick up load in less than 10 seconds. They use an air starter motor as well as air injected directly into the cylinders for starting. The installations I have worked with were installed with electric oil pumps(running all the time until the engine started water jacket and oil heaters.
http://www.fairbanksmorse.com/engines/en...;
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
You probably are looking for at least N+1, although 2N or even 2(N+1) wouldn't surprise me.
Assuming N+1, that probably means one redundant genset for every 2 to 6 base required gensets. That means 16 to 50% spare capacity, which means total installed generating capacity of 128 to 165MW, rather than your 110MW base need. . . .
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Thanks for your input. It is a manufacturing process, not a computer farm. They would not tell us much for the IP protection but supposedly it involves melting solids in large quantities and need careful control and manipulation.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
regards, Danny
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
As far as the nuclear DG sets, I think the time frame is longer than 10 seconds (but they are required to operate in a short time frame -- I knew at one time, but ...)
You have your work cut out for you --
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Must have 110MW backed up. 220MW normally. Why not run your own two 110MW units? One chokes you still have your other. Add a third if needed. It could take 30minutes to get there in case one of the others choked because you've still got your 110MW covered. Don't turbines have about the life u require? Why pay all those bucks to even deal with a lame utility. All the sychonization of armadas of generators... This is somehow simpler than just providing your own full time power?? Seems to me simplicity is king when dealing with these "it must not go down" situations.
Ah well good luck.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Maintenance for this many engines will be a huge job. There are lots of pre-owned (many unused) 2M units from the dot-com bust on the market in the U.S.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/rant/tor...
for:
....there are four twelve megawatt diesel generator stations spaced around each corner of the plant -- each with two generators, any one of which is able to provide operating power to keep the reactor's safety systems. working
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Waukesha Engine
1000 W. St. Paul Ave.
Waukesha, WI 53188
USA
Tel: 262-547-3311
Fax: 262-650-5670
Product Description
Mfrs. Natural Gas Fueled, Reciprocating Engines Of 100 To 4500 Horsepower Primarily Used In Gas Gathering & Power Generating Applications. Complete Engine/Generator Packages From 100 KW To 10 Megawatts
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
http://www.kato-eng.com
http://www.kato-eng.com/enggens.html
etc. for more info
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
This way you can concentrate on a small diesel generator for safety loads and emergency lighting.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
This way you can concentrate on a small diesel generator for safety loads and emergency lighting.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Back up power?
Check this out! What 80MW diesel.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
is a lounge chair and a TV. :)
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Firstly, as you have noticed, the thing is absoutely HUGE. It will also be rather heavy.
Secondly, it will be expensive, and completely out of the question when the customer only wants power for a few years. I understand that Wartsila (the owner of Sulzer diesel) rarely offer slow speed plant for stationary power any more.
Thirdly, the load acceptance characteristics will be pretty poor. These beasts do not like sudden load changes. In terms of standby power, you would not be able to cold start one of these and run to full load in less that several hours.
Fourthly, the power quality from one of these is not the best. Because the machine is onnly rotating at about 100rpm, firing on twelve cylinders, in effect every time each cylinder fires you get a temporary increase in machine torque. This will manifest in ocsillating power output, and quite likely light flickering.
Still, it is pretty impressive ...
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
Minor Aside — I imagine the fuel line serving the subject engine is correspondingly massive.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
It is a "battery" where the electrolyte is a solid polymer membrane, and the anodes and cathodes are liquid vanadium oxides. The discharge anode reaction converts VO5->VO4 while the cathode converts VO2->VO3. Reversing the reaction happens by supplying a charging current, and the liquids are pumped in and out of the cells to storage tanks which provide as much backup time as you provide storage.
quote <Back-up System for Energy Blackouts and 'Brownouts'
In addition to being at full power in one millisecond, the VRB/ESS can provide megawatts of power for hours, making it ideal for emergency power back-up systems and Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS),>
<The VRB/ESS can optimize the bulk production of electricity in large generating plants. The VRB/ESS can store energy for 12 hours at night and supply megawatts of energy for stretches of 5 hours or more in the day (peak shaving). The VRB/ESS can increase the amount of energy a plant sells without the need of increasing generating capacity.>
<Hydro Tasmania has awarded a contract to Pinnacle VRB for the supply and installation of a Vanadium Redox Battery as part of the King Island wind farm expansion.>
regenesys quote<The system has been designed to work in the range from 5 to 500 MW or more and for discharge periods from a few seconds to 12 hours or more. Its high speed of response makes it suitable for many different applications on a power system.>
<The Tennessee Valley Authority of the USA has also started construction of a similar plant at Columbus, Mississippi. It will be used to reinforce the power system in an area of weak distribution.>
<PacifiCorp has begun construction on a site near Moab, Utah known as Castle Valley, for an alternative electrochemical energy storage system based on the Vanadium Redox Battery (VRB). The PacifiCorp 250 kW - 2000 kWh unit is the first large-scale commercial user-based application of the technology in North America. Other installations are operational in both South Africa and Japan.>
Checkout the following links.
http://www.vrbpower.com/
http://www.pinnaclevrb.com.au/index.asp?menu=3
http://www.sei.co.jp/redox/e/index.html
http://www.regenesys.com/ourproducts/regenesys.htm
http://www.hydro.com.au/newsroom/mediareleases/2002/16J...
[Following from Sumitomo)
1 Bank : 170kW
- Grid voltage : 200, 400, 6600V (3phase 3wires, 50 or 60Hz)
- Type of the electrolyte tank is assumed as polyethylene. And the tanks are common for each bank.
- Heat exchangers are not included in space.
- The above table is reference only. Contents may be changed after detail design.
There appears to be no reason not to install e.g. several hundred sets of cells/inverters to supply whatever power rating you might need, then install several (huge) vanadium electrolyte storage tanks and pumping systems.
Pinnacle/VRBPower has installed several systems, e.g. Pacificorp in Utah, one in South Africa, one in Australia. Your problem may be to get enough vanadium to supply the system for the backup time your are talking, pure vanadium appears to be in short supply, though apparently Makenzie Bay Resources is just waiting for a few contracts like this to open a new mine in northern Canada.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
In theory the VRB (Vanadium Reduction/oxidation Battery) solution is ideal, green and available already but there must be something stopping it from widespread application at the moment.
The various companies making VRB are not big enough yet to meet the power industries' needs. While I have absolutely no idea about the VRB costs there seems to be a huge practical problem on its implementation.
The Japanese company Sumitomo appears pretty well ahead of the others by having several commercial installations and a strings of publications on their research. The feature that caught my eye is the size of the tank volume of the electrolyte. Sumitomo's research paper indicated a 1 m3 volume of vanadium electrolyte can generate between 17.5 to 20 kWh of electricity.
If we are serious in proposing the VRB technology to solve hmchi's 110MW standby power need then we must have about 5500m3 electrolyte ready to maintain every hour of the power supply. To meet hmchi’s sufficiency of a week or 10 days standby power then 7*24*110,000/20 = 924,000m3 will be needed. If the electrolyte weighs anything like water we are talking about 924,000 tonnes. Say by putting it in underground in a 5m (16.4ft) high basement the floor area will still be 184,800m2 which is big enough for 34 American football pitches (5400m2 each). If hmchi manages to find only one American football pitch size basement with a 5m headroom then the standby power is only good enough for just under 5 hour operation.
Is there something wrong with my logic or VRB can be a lot more manageable in size now?
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
I did hear that they are very very expensive, however, this may be the very type of project for it.
jbartos, I heard that the largest fuel cell to date is 1000KW, and they are guinea pigs really. Am I wrong, do you have more info ?
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
a) consider installing only enough solution to handle 12 or 24 hours.
b) install a spur railroad line with 50 or 100 locomotive parking spots.
c) arrange with some nearby rail companies to pay them a fee to guarantee (some of) their freight locomotives as standby generators. 2-3 megawatts could easily be extracted from each modern one with temporary connections.
d) use the locomotives to run the inverters directly during an outage, then as chargers after the outage to get you back up fast.
e) start buying retired locomotives and parking them in the yard. Do a minimal overhaul until they're just good enough to generate on standby, connect them permanent using their existing automation controls to your central authority, exercise them often. Install a large fuel distribution system in the parking space.
BTW, Makenzie Bay is at:
http://www.mckenziebay.com
quote<A new, proprietary, Vanadium purification process (“McKenzie Bay Processâ€) was developed by McKenzie Bay’s team of Vanadium recovery experts for production of high-purity Vanadium chemicals. The McKenzie Bay Process has produced Vanadium chemicals that have met or exceeded specifications demanded by a manufacturer of Vanadium-based batteries. Projections based upon SNC’s internal knowledge indicated Lac Doré could be among the low cost producers in the world for certain high-purity Vanadium chemical it planned to produce.>
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
http://www.fce.com/
quote< In the nearer term, it is believed that cost effective small MW class hybrid systems can be configured with efficiencies of 70% or better. Although power plants utilizing this system are not yet available, the design is showing promise in its development stage. Under a Department of Energy-supported Vision21 program, activities are underway to operate a subscale system and to develop an ultra-high-efficiency 40MW powerplant design.>
At that point, you could likely only afford it by running it 24/7, but you would have the reliability of multiple units in your own control.
Thats where my interest comes in, I've patented new non-turbine brayton cycle engine systems to recover electricity or refrigeration at the temperatures these units exhaust.
Also consider contacting Enbridge in Calgary, Alta, Can. (Largest nat. gas wholesaler in Canada.) They're being very quiet but I've heard they/their partner Global are advanced on SOFC development.
http://www.enbridge.com/companies/corporate.html
http://www.globalte.com/advantages.htm
Also Ceres Power in GB, LowTemp-SOFC (550 deg, claims to "overcome problems of sealing of cell membranes", which might be a concern to watch for.)
http://www.cerespower.com/who_we_are.htm
This from ECN Tech
http://www.ecn.nl/bct/products/sofc_tech/metal.en.html
points out some caveats to beware in SOFC.
re. Development of metal substrate supported cells
quote<The development of this new type of cell is still entirely within the R&D phase. This development line works on a redesigned cell type that provides optimal opportunities to meet the system requirements. Mechanical integrity for reducing risks of cracking during cell manufacturing, stack building and clamping, and of course enduring thermal cycling, is considered a major prerequisite.>
Something to watch out for with SOFC's is that once started, they MUST NOT BE SHUT DOWN in current technology. Apparently only < 10 thermal cycles in lifetime of ceramic membranes. If you don't have baseload for them, then dont buy them.
This from Enbridge partner Global Thermoelectric
http://www.globalte.com/advantages.htm
quote<Global's SOFC no longer needs to operate in the challenging 800°C to 1,000°C range. At temperatures below 800°C the interconnect plates that are used to facilitate fuel and oxygen flow, collect electrical current and hold the fuel cells in place in the stack, can be stamped standard stainless steel components rather than made of exotic metal alloys or expensive ceramic materials.
Thermal Cycling
Thermal cycling involves bringing a fuel cell system to operating temperature, then returning it to ambient temperature before returning to operating temperatures. Planar SOFCs have not traditionally been capable of thermal cycling because glass seals were used around the cells and gas manifold. When such a unit is thermally cycled, the glass seals crack causing leaks and the rapid deterioration of the fuel cell stack. In 1999, Global developed a proprietary high-temperature compressive seal, permitting the stacks to be thermally cycled>
Good Luck
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
A multiple of 2MW sets might have the advantage of good resale value. Think how easy it would be to offload 50 CAT 3516's. An contractor would probaly factor this is his price. Talk to CAT.
What sort of UPS? There is a version of rotary UPS that has direct coupled diesel engines. e.g. Piller
Gas Turbine starting is in the range of 30 seconds from what I've seen.
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
jbartos, I heard that the largest fuel cell to date is 1000KW, and they are guinea pigs really. Am I wrong, do you have more info ?
///Visit
http://www.westbioenergy.org/reports/55010/fuel_cell_re...
for feasibility of 6000kW fuel cell cogen plant\\\
RE: 110 Megawatt emergency generator ?
http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/products?pnlid=8&famid=...