Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
(OP)
Who has the best motor starting contactor/starter? I am in the market for a reliable electromechanical motor starter rated at 480V with 22Amps. I researched the following manufacturers such as Square D Company, Allen Bradley, Cutler Hammer, Siemens and General Electric. Can someone provide their best argument for either manufacturer's starter product?





RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
Significant factors are local track record, spare-parts availability, and real cost of production downtime. A big issue is NEMA- versus IEC-grade devices
I prefer vertical dropout devices with eutectic-alloy overload elements…like AB Bulletin 509, while not caring for GE, J-Clark or Westinghouse NEMA versions. In an earlier decade replaced a lot of IEC stuff with NEMA. But everyone has opinions.
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
Allen Bradey has alway been consider the cadilac because of price and quality. But I have use all of the about for 40 years and they all will give you long excellent service.
I used to like square D because of thier thick enclosure, but twenty year ago they followed the herd and have the same thickness enclosures as all the rest.
I found it is best to go to the local representative brand that gives you the best service and prices in your area. This is real important if you need spare parts or technical information.
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
and the outcome will probably vary from location to location, from vendor to vendor...
in my experience, vendor support and expertise has always come to the front when dealing with any major equipment issues.. (I have used all of the reference equipment mfg,. and they, the equipment, each has strong points and weak points)
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
NEMA is heavier-duty than IEC. I'd recommend in general to stay away from IEC, with one exception: IEC devices are physically smaller than NEMA, so if space is at a real premium, IEC can sometimes save the day. Otherwise stick with NEMA.
Allen-Bradley is number 1 in my book, but any of the major manufacturers should be just fine.
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
I generally agree with all of the above. The quality and reliability of motor starters from any of the leading manufacturers is much of a muchness these days. In fact, much of it is simply brand labelled!
I don't dispute the argument that Nema products are great however subject to your loacation they may be difficult to obtain. IEC products seem to be more readillty available in most parts of the globe (other than the states) and although the perception is that Nema contactors are 'more heavy duty' IEC specifications for contactor electrical and mechanical life runs into several million operation.
Regards,
GGOSS
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
NEMA = Allen Bradley, Bulletin 509 series.
IEC = Siemans. Sirius series
Here are some factors I take into account for determining
IEC vs. NEMA in the order of precedence.
1) enviroment is the most important in my opinion.
NEMA= hot , oily, and dirty area, like a large
stamping press or forging machine.
Nema definiteley stands up to heat and oil
better.
IEC = lighter manufaturing, like a packaging
or box machine for finished product.
2) Mechanical stucture, your electrical
components should match the
mechanical design
NEMA= heavy duty
IEC= lighter duty
3) Length of service, how long will you be using this
machine at your facility( some will argue this
should be the first priority). Be careful with
this one, product demand is always changing
NEMA= +7 yrs
IEC = -7 yrs
One more thing to consider when using IEC components, ALWAYS up size the size of the contactor by about a third. For a 10 HP motor, I would use an IEC contactor rated at no less than 15 HP
The Siemans manual is not the easiest to use, but the product makes up for the slight hassle. I thought it was just me until SCOTTYUK pointed out he felt the same way.
Good luck,
Afterhrs
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
NEMA is great stuff, heavy, durable, lasts forever.
But I really like the phrase "suitable for application".
I like that phrase if a technically adept and diligent person, subject to abuse by the weak and undisciplined however.
If a contactor is in very light duty application, not many starts per day and starts are not too close together, and if you want built in phase loss protection without added expense and maintenance headaches of phase monitors, then IEC is great stuff. I know this because our applications (correctly controlled centrifugal pumps)are perfect for IEC. If we have a jockey that may get started frequently we just upsize the IEC contactor.
Our viewpoint is that the incredibly high price of the NEMA has to be justified. If both NEMA and IEC are going to last 20 years no problem based on the application, use IEC.
PUMPDESIGNER
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
Contactor Performance
IEC Type:
Electrical life - 1 million AC3 operations; 30,000 AC4 operations when tested per IEC recommendations
NEMA Type:
Electrical life typically 2.5 to 4 times higher than equivalently rated IEC device on the same test.
Fault Withstandability
IEC Type:
Typically designed for use with fast acting, current limiting fuses.
NEMA Type:
Designed for use with common domestic fuses and circuit breakers.
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
For better or worse, low voltage MCCs are something of a commodity product in the US. For new construction, they are often provided by the contractor as part of overall construction project. As long as NEMA and UL requirements are met, they are often viewed as equivalents and purchased based on price/delivery.
The choice may depend on existing equipment, spare parts and how you use MCCs (which are flexible in application).
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
PUMPDESIGNER
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
Without wanting to offen anybody here, I get the impression that some may be speaking form un-informed or ill-informed positions.
First and foremost I should mention that I agree with many of the comments made re Nema contactors being more suitable for 'heavy duty' or even 'dirty' environments.
However if we are to work with the figures of electrical life quoted by peebee (they are typical for most recognised IEC brands) and assume a typical application of say 5 starts/hour, 8 hours/day, 5 days/week, 50 weeks/year (assumed 2 week shut-down) the IEC contactor will last 100 years ie and folks that's a hell of a lot longer than most reading this will survive.
Also worth noting is the fact that most IEC contactors have a mechanical life rating of typically 10,000,000 operations. Therefore it should not unreasonable to assume that if the contactor is not being used to its rated amps and/or temperature then its electrical life will be somewhere between 1M & 10M operations, defined by given service life curves.
Pumpdesigner raises the the very important issue of brand recognition and I firmly believe has a direct relationship with quality. To that end I want to provide a practical example of some tests conducted several years ago.
I was asked to conduct a mechanical life test on 2 IEC contactors of different manufacture. One of known high quality marketed by our company, the other of asian origin and much more economical. I proceeded to mount both onto a piece of din-rail fixed to a solid structure above my work bench. The coil to each contactor was powered via the contacts of a single 'cyclic' timer programmed for 1 second on 2 seconds off. Needless to say the timer would repeat that operation until power was removed from its coil. Below the contactors (on my bench) I placed 2 large sheets of white butcher paper. After about 3 hours of operation the sheet of paper below the more economical contactor was covered in fine dust like fragments of plastic evidently comming away from the inside body of that contactor. After about 5 hours some larger fragments (pin head size) were noted and contactor began to malfunction, occassionaly jamming up. Within the next hour, that contactor siezed up altogether. Without a word of a lie, the sheet of paper below the IEC contactor was still as it was when first placed there (free of any fragments) and the contacotr continued to operate faultlessly for several more hours before the test/comparison was aborted. My point here is that "you get what you pay for".
Referring back to the typical application example given above, as I haven't been around for 100 years (although it feels like that sometimes) I can say without any hesitation that I am aware of several more arduous IEC contactor installations that have been performing faultlesly since before many of the apprentices that also work here were concieved.
In closing, if I can buy a qualtiy IEC contactor for 1/3 the price of an equivelant Nema product and save space in my panel, why wouldn't I do so based on the above?
Regards,
GGOSS
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
Let's say the average life is 100 years for an IEC contactor, and 300 years for a NEMA. That equates to 0.01 failures per year for IEC, and 0.00333 failures per year for NEMA.
And lets say my plant has 1000 contactors.
If I did this with all IEC, I'd expect to have 0.01 x 1000 = 10 contactor failures per year. With NEMA, I'd expect to have only 3.3 failures per year.
The use of NEMA, therefore, increases the reliability of the plant, decreases downtime, and decreases maintenance costs.
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
We use the most suitable based on project location, power quality, and intended use.
If you add in the fact that some locations have serious transient problems that damage phase/voltage monitors you might find the situation intolerable with NEMA and phase monitors.
What really is hard to get a hold on is the actual working out over time with hard data. What I have is experience, but that does no one any good except me, I cannot expect others to just accept my experience, undocumented as it is.
I have had experiences with NEMA that forced us to look hard and and start using IEC contactors.
PUMPDESIGNER
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
Phase/voltage monitor? I'm not quite following you, I don't understand what you're referring to. Are you talking about an electronic relay?
Most starters I deal with are pretty straightforward DOL FVNR starters, with a breaker or fuse, contactor, overload, control transformer, and not much else (except for the control circuit). Sometimes soft starters or VFD's. No "phase/voltage monitor". . . .
Please describe what you mean by this. Also, it's not clear to me what the difference between the IEC & NEMA applications would be with the monitor, why IEC would be favored, although maybe your description will make that clear.
It's very interesting to me that you state you have applications that favor NEMA over IEC, the ONLY advantages I've ever heard of for IEC are cost and space, never durability. Please expand on this.
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
Therefore, if we use a NEMA contactor, we also have to provide phase monitor which is usually another piece of equipment.
We would like to use digital voltage/phase monitor built into the NEMA Contactor. Example would be Westinghouse Advantage Contactor/Starter.
By the way, does anyone have experience with these? Are they any good?
PUMPDESIGNER
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
I've had arguements before with people regarding whether or not an overload heater would protect a motor agains single-phasing. My position is that it will not, that a separate relay is required for that protection (at least, on a NEMA contactor. . .). Not to get too far off the subject, but any thoughts on that?
Regarding the Westinghouse starter -- sorry, no experience with that. I've always gone to Multilin for any motor that demanded anything beyond basic protection. Why Multilin? Well, mostly because that's what everyone else seemed to use.
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
I have not investigated IEC Standards, so I cannot give useful information about that. However, I have never seen an IEC contactor that did not have phase unbalance/loss protection. I would sure like it if someone who has the IEC codes would comment on this topic because I am guessing that the phase loss feature is an IEC requirement.
Anyway, here is how it works on Square D, Sprecher-Shuh, and I suspect on others also.
There are two trip curves for the bi-metal strips, one normal overload, and one very fast for phase loss.
All 3 phases activate a magentic coil that holds a bar in alignment. When bar is aligned the bimetals have a standard trip curve associated with their function. If a phase is lost, or if phases become unbalanced the bar tilts and forces the bimetals to trip very fast, about 5 seconds or less by my experience and testing in our shop.
What is Multilin?
PUMPDESIGNER
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
At Sprecher-Schuh follow this link:
http://www.ssusa.cc/pages/mainpg/prodmai...
At Allen Bradley follow this link: http://www.ab.com/industrialcontrols/pro...
PUMPDESIGNER
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
General Electric Co. has their starters often associated with their major product "Boiling Water Reactor (BWR)" Nuclear Power Plant (NPP). Westinghouse Electric had their starters associated with "Pressurized Water Reactor (PWR)" NPPs.
Westinghouse Starters appear on the Suspect Components List; visit
http://twilight.saic.com/qawg/scitrend/s...
the list
Allen-Bradley has traditionally been linked to manufacturers or actually made big by manufacturers (i.e. manufacturers' sweetheart).
Siemens has many starters in the textile industry, and IEC in the nuclear industry (Siemens Automation and Russian nuclear reactors are procured by Chinese).
ABB Starters appear to be mainly 400V and 50Hz.
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
The specifics that make a product very good for a particular market is however hard to analyze because experience is usually required, and that does not pass around easily, nor can this easily be documented in such a manner as to make it easily understood by others.
PUMPDESIGNER
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
Who has the best motor starting contactor/starter?
///It depends. Please, would you be more specific for which application, industry, etc.?\\\
I am in the market for a reliable electromechanical motor starter rated at 480V with 22Amps.
///Are you interested in classical reliability parameters, e.g. MTBF, MTTR, availability, life-cycle, etc.?\\\
I researched the following manufacturers such as Square D Company, Allen Bradley, Cutler Hammer, Siemens and General Electric. Can someone provide their best argument for either manufacturer's starter product?
///Again, it depends. Please, would you be more specific?\\\
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
While IEC may be better at detecting loss of phase for incoming power, In my experience, they are a lot less equipped to handle motor failures. I have seen several IEC contactors welded together because motor failure. This will render the solid state overload useless(and also destroyed). The fuses above the contactor have to all blow
for the situation to end. I personally have never seen a set of NEMA contactors welded together. I believe NEMA to be much better for providing motor failure protection.
The motor, contactor, and overload all have to be replaced with an IEC motor failure.
I have concluded that if your motor is going to be in a harsh enviroment with a higher failure rate, definiteley use NEMA.
Regards
Afterhrs
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
I am still concerned about some of the comments being made here!
1. IEC 'contactors' do not offer protection against single phasing. The 'overload relay' used with either an IEC or Nema contactor can provides this functionality.
2. IEC contactors do not have a service life of seven years.
3. IEC contactors do not need to be protected by facst acting fuses. Correctly co-ordinated, standard fuses and/or breakers will provide protection to 50kA and above.
4. A phase to phase or phase to earth fault on the load side of a Nema contactor will cause the contacts within the contactor to weld ie just as it would for an IEC contactor. Again, this is a fusing issue not a contacotr issue.
5. At least one of the leading manufacturuers of Nema contactors mentioned here also manufactures high qulaity IEC contactors. As I am a distributor of their products, I know what the thrust of their developments and promotions is & where they see the future. It's IEC.
There are several more eroneous comments in this thread! I feel very sorry for those who look to eng-tips as a place of learning.
Regards,
GGOSS
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
I encourage you to review my previous postings in this thread again. They are both based on my individual experience and what " I " have seen as pointed out by these statements
1)" Here are some factors I take into account for determining IEC vs. NEMA in the order of precedence."
2) " I have seen several IEC contactors welded together
because of motor failure."
3) " I personally have never seen a set of NEMA contactors welded together."
I stand by my comments as to what " I " have seen, or as to how " I " would determine what specification to use.
One of the most powerful forms of advertising around is word of mouth. Always has been , always will be. Until we have some sort of unbiased third party ( like an industrial consumers reports) available, most of us will continue word of mouth through whatever medium is available, including this one. I certainly cannot look to a distributor or their sales staff for an unbiased opinion( no offense intended ). I ,for one, dont ever want to tell a customer that the product I specified is not holding up. When I put my name on the line, the last thing I want is bad word of mouth reputation.
I also find very it very interesting you did not take issue specifically with my comment about increasing the size of IEC contactor by 1/3. I read your last blanket statement about eroneous comments, wich is why I find it interesting you did not take issue with this one.
Regards,
Afterhrs
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
Foxhoundme
Q1. Who has the best motor starting contactor/starter?
jbartos
A1. It depends. Please, would you be more specific for which application, industry, etc.?
Foxhoundme
Comment: It is a pump application in a process industry.
Foxhoundme
I am in the market for a reliable electromechanical motor starter rated at 480V with 22Amps.
jbartos
Q2. Are you interested in classical reliability parameters, e.g. MTBF, MTTR, availability, life-cycle, etc.?
Foxhoundme
A2. My reference would be life-cycles at normal loading.
Foxhoundme
I researched the following manufacturers such as Square D Company, Allen Bradley, Cutler Hammer, Siemens and General Electric. Can someone provide their best argument for either manufacturer's starter product?
jbartos
Comment: Again, it depends. Please, would you be more specific?
Foxhoundme
In general I am looking for arguments for either manufacturers contactor/starter life-cycles. Which manufacturer from personal experince has provided the best level of performance in your opinion? Jbartos, thank you for yout time and thoughts on this subject.
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
I agree with your comments in the main, nothing beats practical experience! Sometimes however, our opinion about products, services or even meals can be tainted by a ‘single’ not so pleasant experience.
As implied if not stated in my previous posts here, I have absolutely no objection to Nema contactors and would go so far as to agree that they can provide benefits in certain environments.
Yes, the company I work for does market IEC contactors together with a large variety of other switchgear and control gear products. I therefore have a bunch of experience in this area and like you, was simply making comment from my own practical experience.
For the record, I am not in sales and am not trying to push any particular barrow (in fact my main area of focus is soft starters and variable speed drives). To that end you will note that I have not made any derogatory comments about the Nema product and have not made any reference to IEC product/brand for promotional purposes.
Finally, in response to your question as to why it was that I didn’t list or respond to the subject of up-sizing IEC contactors. I have never had a need to do so and am not aware of this practice in general industry.
Trust the above clarifies my position.
Best Regards,
GGOSS
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
We have used Square D/Telemecanique IEC Contactors for up to 75 hp for about 15 years. Probably about 3-4 thousand units total. We are aware of one overload that did not protect a motor from small overload and allowed the motor to fry. That is pretty good report I would say. We have never heard anything but respect for these contactors from competitors or anyone else in our industry (water pump stations).
As for NEMA, we have never used them but I would from experience in specifications say that the Westinghouse Advantage NEMA Starters with solid state overload protection is probably the Cadillac. If you or your customer can afford these units you get the best of both worlds, NEMA and total accurate overload protection with phase loss and unbalance protection. But you can also purchase solid state overloads for IEC contactors, which would lower your cost.
GGOSS is very correct to mention welded contacts. Contactor/overload set (both IEC and NEMA) is not designed nor intended to interrupt major short circuit or ground fault. NEC requires circuit breakers/fuses for that purpose. The UL tests in fact assume that if a major fault occurs that the contactor must be protected by the circuit braker/fuse set. The principle is coordinated protection - Circuit Breakers/Fuses for large or major Overcurrent, and Overload Protection for Low to Moderate Overcurrent which cannot be detected by circuit breakers or fuses before dangerous heat rise in the motor.
PUMPDESIGNER
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
I understand what you are saying about the one strike and out philosophy, many people put that one to practice.
Some of the people I have met in a similar position to yours would not have been so honest about what they do and would have been unable to refrain from making a product endorsement.
You are to be commended for your intregrety!
PUMPDESIGNER,
Did you say you have been using Telemechanique for fifteen years with out any problems?
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
I would say, I have been using Telemecanique for around 8 yrs specifying in my specs. Frankly I have come across some failures. But as a general it's a good contactor. I referred to one of my very good friends in North America and found the failures of the contactors(NEMA) he uses. This is just something not to argue and discriminate saying, asian, chinese, russian make devices function badly. It's not the kind of behaviour the world expects from you professionals. I worked in 11 countries already on different projects. My general opinion is mistakes in product manufacturing and services are unavoidable. It's not the fault of the standard. Non of the emergency battery units worked in our own consulting company office during the big blackout they are human errors. NOT all IEC products are bad. NOT all NEMA products are bad.
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
Visit
http://www.barringer1.com/pdf/lcc_gp.pdf
http://www.mms.gov/tarprojects/356/356AA...
for reference data to which manufacturers' starters may be correlated.
Then, visit
http://www.thomasregister.com
and type Starters: Motor under Product or Service, which will return 131 companies to approach to obtain MBTF, MTTF, MTTR, life-cyle, etc.
Some manufacturers will not reveal these data even if you purchase a starter, not to mention if you do not purchase one. This is how proprietary information can be or can get. I have done some research in these areas. The manufacturers may even consider one to be an "industrial spy." It is not a surprise to me that some postings above relate to other ways to obtain the product quality information, e.g. by word of mouth.
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
I make this thread to invite you to go to the Thread237-73647 by me as your expertise is in VFDs. The reason being I have a project requiring the ASD as explained. Possibly you might know about it as they are your competitors. I haven't received enough comments about it.
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
At this moment however we are taking a hard look at AB and Siemens. Not for product quality or problems with contactors. We are looking for smaller circuit breakers. Those Square D Molded Case breakers are truly great breakers, but they are huge. AB now has the Westinghouse breakers which we think are perhaps one of the finest breakers around.
PUMPDESIGNER
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
I have had a quick look at Thread237-73647 and the link contained within your post of October 3. As it appears to is off-topic for this thread, I will review the information and respond in the original thread.
Regards,
GGOSS
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
1) Read the heading of this thread again.
2) I could care less where it is made, only how well
it works. Please show me where I stated different.
3) Please read more carefully before trying to correct
someone.
Regards,
Afterhrs
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
So you like Telemechanique, then I say stick with them if you have had good luck with their product. As you already know, they have not served me well, and I will not use them again. I was not the only to voice this opinion in another thread that you were also a part of. I guess that is why it caught me by surprise.
Electricians, problems, I cant believe it. I would just say make sure you have a copy of NEC table 318,
article 430, and article 670.
I would definitely inspect the wire size before initial start up , even though you shouldn't have to.
I have recently installed some AB circuit breakers, about 8 months ago. Anywhere from .5 to 30 amps. No problems thus far. Not much to go on, but better than nothing I suppose .
Best Regards,
Afterhrs
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
Simply go for Siemens, they are the best world over
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
The Westinghouse breakers you refer to, now available from AB, also appear to be the same as the Siemens 3VF range. Good breakers. But who makes them, and who are the two companies engaged in 'badge engineering'?
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
Sorry I was not trying to offend you. Only the first part of my comment is applicable to you. The rest is a general comment for everybody. This is very nice forum with lot of educated and experienced people. And we need to maintain that respect. Sorry for any inconvenience to you afterhrs.
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
All three breakers are the same as you observed. AB and Siemens AG have both bought Westinghouse/Cutler Hammer breakers for many years. Brand labeling for AB started earlier this year, I think they only sold replacements previously. As a former employee of Siemens in the US I never could understand why they didn't market their own product as they own the ITE brand.
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
Since I was the only one named, I felt like I was being
misquoted.
No offense taken, I just like keeping the record straight.
I couldn't agree more, this is an excellent fourum.
Best regards,
Afterhrs
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
I echo CHDEAN, why don't companies take a little more pride in their own engineers and let them design and build their own products.
ScottyUK - What is "badge engineering"?
PUMPDESIGNER
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
Did you ever decide wich contactor you were going to
purchase.
This thread did get off subject, but everyone has an opinion on quality. I am sorry for any inconvience
this may have caused you.
Best regards,
Afterhrs
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
The term "badge engineering" applies to the private branding of common products. That is, it is not uncommon to find (for example) a single circuit breaker product marketed under several different brand labels.
Regards,
GGOSS
RE: Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter
dpc posted Oct 1, 2003 “…low voltage MCCs are something of a commodity product in the US…”
I agree with dpc that statement holds in many cases, but sometimes another thing happens. If production loss can be shown to repeatedly be caused by a particular series of components, on some occasions operations people can persist long enough to disqualify those components at the pre-procurement stage. There are plants that sole-source motor-control equipment, for the favored components have historically increases profitability and reduced maintenance costs.