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Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

(OP)
I have been told that Allen-Bradley has another manufacturer make their IEC relays and they are identicle to the OEM's brand. Can anyone tell me if this is true and if so, who makes them? All I know is that the Allen-Bradley relays are made in Switzerland. We have several customers who spec Allen-Bradley relays but they are very expensive.

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

Can not help you their. Allen-Bradley to me, means over priced reliable equipment. Their are others, depending on what, that are just as reliable but your not paying for the name. I am sure you know that. Will be nice to see if someone has a lead on the real mfg.

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

Klockner Moeller was and is making some IEC stuff for AB, that I know for sure.
Also, Rockwell owns both AB and Sprecher Schuh, which is from Switzerland.  They now share many components, in fact much of their stuff is identical.  We just looked at moving onto AB and the Sprecher sales guy can sell me anything I want with Sprecher's name on it but identical to AB.

PUMPDESIGNER

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

(OP)
Thanks PUMPDESIGNER. Sprecher Schuh relays are ,in deed, identicle to the AB units. I wonder how much less they cost....

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

JM,
   While you are shopping around for IEC components, I would take a serious look at Siemans . I have had great luck with them. I use the Siemans Sirius series.
   Another very good rule of thumb for IEC I have found is you can only rate them at about 70% of maximum capacity if
sustain any product life out of them.
   I have seen siemans maxed out on specifications and hold up very well

Regards,
afterhrs

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

Sprecher is much less for two reasons.
Sprecher does not have the overhead AB does.
Sprecher has 2nd tier dealers that are hungry, low overhead guys often with far better service and inventory than the big distributors, at least our distributor is.  Ask and we receive anything we want, even stocking inventory.

afterhrs - That is good insight about how IEC contactors are lighter duty.
We upsize the IEC stuff where it will be frequent starts, heavy torque starts, jogging, etc.  However many applications are so light that we would be wasting money, the thing is going to last 20 years no matter what.  

I'll keep my eyes open for the Siemens guys and give them a looksy.

PUMPDESIGNER

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

I agree with afterhrs regarding the high quality of Siemens controlgear. We started using their products after some pretty serious problems with products from Groupe Schneider companies (Merlin Gerin and Telemecanique), and have nothing but praise for the Siemens product.

Siemens have a very wide range of products, but the catalogues are not exactly friendly. The Siemens technical guys are very helpful though, when you become frustrated with the catalogues!

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

(OP)
Thanks for the insight on the Siemens products. Unfortunately, I have no choice but to use AB or an equivelent to AB simply because our customers spec AB. For them, it's all in the name.

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

Buzzp :

Your comment reminded me of a time in the last millenium when I wandered the aisles at A-B .... there was an "un-official" company motto....

  "You can always buy better, but you'll never pay more"



RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

Scotty
    To me Telemecanique is like the Yugo ( a very cheap car that was sold in the U.S.,imported from old Yugoslavia)  of industrial controls.
    I remember a gentleman a few years back tried to spec a panel with a few of their components, the conversation ended something like this:
 

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

(OP)
afterhrs,

Very true about Telemecanique!

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

I could not possibly put in print my current opinion of the new Telemecanique ranges. But you are on the right lines!

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

OK, OK, I am out looking for Siemens.  Thank you for the advice about Telemecanique.

PUMPDESIGNER

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

I used to work for a company that sold stuff to Group Schneider. They private labeld our stuff. I was not at all impressed with their technical expertise.
One note about IEC contactors; these units tend to generate higher transients when switching which might cause unprotected relays, controls, etc to nuisance trip or even lock-up. In any case, a properly designed control will not be affected by the IEC contactors.

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

buzzp - Never knew about the higher transients.  We grew over time to favor IEC contactors very much over NEMA because of the built in phase loss protection.  Phase Monitors were a bain to our existence, more trouble than they were worth.  We have repeatedly tested the single phasing abilities of the IEC contactors and they are very good at this.

PUMPDESIGNER

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

Like I said, if the control is designed properly, they will not be affected by the use of IEC contactors.
What levels of current unbalance do the IEC contactors consider a single phase, just curious?

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

I valued your comment on the IEC higher transients.  Who knows, that could cause a shorter life span of other delicate components in the panel.

I have never seen a chart or anything giving information on the degree of unbalance to cause single phase trip.  All we know from literature is that three magnetic fields hold the trip bar straight.  When a phase drops out the bar tilts and a very short delay occurs, generally around 2-5 seconds by our experience.  I have even tested this in the shop, very reliable and very fast.  The overload bimetallics are the cause of the trip, but their normal trip curve is modified by the bar tilting.

Sorry I do not have more information.

PUMPDESIGNER

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

I use probably 20 IEC Cutler-Hammer Freedom series IEC 947 a
month and I've not seen better contactors anywhere. If you want to look at these Cutler-Hammer contactors go to
www.automationdirect.com and follow link to controls. I
also use a very inexpensive IEC contactor line for budget
jobs called Centsable which are about a 1/6 of the cost of
AB and work just as well. My electricians now replaced failed AB contactors with these in our systems. Centsable
are available at www.automationdirect.com as well.

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

As an example of Centsables' cost versus AB.
Centsable GH-15BN3-10A $12     AB 100-C09D10 $82
ABOVE EXAMPLE IS SIZE B 120V COIL WITH 1 N.O. AUX. CONTACT

   If customer does spec. AB, they must be willing to
bear the cost however, so let em have em.

   

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

(OP)
PumpDesigner-FYI, I have gone to different distributors when costing jobs and have found only a minimal difference in cost when comparing Sprecher-Shuh IEC relays to their A-B counterparts. What is your experience with this?

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

JMBurgess,
I have no firm information but only that Sprecher has been much less expensive in the past.  Lately however we see A-B getting more competitive and willing to work deals.

PUMPDESIGNER

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

(OP)
Do you buy A-B direct or through a distributor?

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

We are not currently purchasing A-B.
We were totally A-B long ago, and they would like to get back in.
Last fall we spent time with them and they were willing to match any price we had from Square D, Siemens, etc.  That is quite a change.
They seem very different than in the past.
They want to provide a full line now including Circuit Breakers, etc.  That is a lot of change because they were never a full line before.  They seem to have active R&D with new products coming up, and from what we have seen they have a healthy imagination and are innovative.

I am not permitted to write specifically about pricing or how the product is handled.

PUMPDESIGNER

RE: Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays

JMBurgess,
The magic word for A-B negotiations is...competition!
If they percieve that "I have no choice but to use AB or an equivelent to AB simply because our customers spec AB", it is all over. They will get their price. If however, you convince them that your customer will accept anything elese that performs equally well, they will do whatever it takes to keep your business (well, within ethical norms at least). Having worked with several S$S reps I can attest to the fact that when push comes to shove, the upper managers who ultimately make the final decision are shared between the 2 brands, and A-B will squash S$S if they want it.

PUMPDESIGNER,
Having worked for Klockner Moeller in the past, I can tell you that KM never brand labeled contactors to AB, but they did label their overload relays and motor protective switches up until the S&S buyout. Since then all of the newer AB products are S&S. Where you might have heard about the KM contactor connection was a funny story however. Prior to the S&S buyout, A-B wanted to release an IEC contactor. They had no experience in automated contactor production lines at the time, so they hired a company called Moeller Automation to design and build a process line for them. Rumor was that nobody at A-B made the connection to Klockner Moeller until it was too far along (althouhgh I find that part hard to swallow), but A-B made KM promise "not to tell". They never did officially, but on the cover of KM's 1984-85 catalog there is a color photograph of an automated contactor assembly line, and if you look in the fuzzy background you could see that it is A-B's gold contactors being spit out!

"Venditori de oleum-vipera non vigere excordis populi"


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