How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
(OP)
Greetings to my fellow engineers:
Several years prior to receiving my undergraduate MechE (1998) and since that time up until the present moment, I have been employed within the "petro-chem-offshore-marine" bailiwick.
Although I have found myself struggling with the specific language to use in this forum, so that I could make a lucid plea for your opinions pertaining to the subject matter, I'm prepared to let this version "fly".
I have been married (my first, and last, hopefully)for three years and have come to realize that my "devotion to my employer" (whatever that is supposed to mean) by working excessive hours over the "normal work week" (whatever that is supposed to mean)has been the result of my attempts at developing a "good will" quotient at work. It is intrusive on my personal life, and I don't have a good concept of "how-much-is-enough".
I mean to express that, at least for now, I still beleive in a law of "reaping-and-sowing" such that I feel that I should "put-in" (hours, other ways of returning value, etc.) before I expect to "get-out" (receiving promotions, salary increases, ensuring a greater likelihood of surviving a corporate re-engineering of its staff, and the like).
It makes me feel foolish now to admit that when I first began my engineering career, I used to scoff under-my-breath about the folks who showed up late, took long lunch brakes and left early every day. I used to admire not the "work-a-holic" but held in high-esteem the company "good-'ol-grinder". However, maybe these people that I once considered as "slackers" really have a more healthy approach to their management of life and a "normal" work week(40 hours?...hoo-ha!).
Does there exist a reasonable approach in dealing with the employer/immediate manager when "un-paid" overtime in the company culture appears to be the norm? Does one reasonably set (only for the purpose of this example) a 10-hour-per-week-limit for an un-paid "overtime-gift" to the employer? Or,is this a contemporarily perverse notion, and simply a matter of discipline and self-teaching to "put-the-calculator-down-at-5:00" and "beat-feet" out of the office?
It just has been the case, again in my bailiwick, that incompetent, lazy, bumblers can be seen receiving just as many kudos (if not more) than those who really seem to always put-forth the "yeoman's effort" (seems to be about 15-20% of employees that fall into this category).
In short (much too late to say that now, I guess) how much extra weekly work should one reasonably provide his/her employer with, that is not compensated by either increased income or vacation time? Could the answer be "0"?
This issue has confounded me ever since I have joined the ranks of the salaried work-world. When I was employed as a refinery operator, I could always count on getting paid for all of the time that I spent at the plant...just as a case-in-point. Should any of you have any thoughts on this matter, I would most genuinely appreciate each and every response. My best regards to all of you.
Pete
Several years prior to receiving my undergraduate MechE (1998) and since that time up until the present moment, I have been employed within the "petro-chem-offshore-marine" bailiwick.
Although I have found myself struggling with the specific language to use in this forum, so that I could make a lucid plea for your opinions pertaining to the subject matter, I'm prepared to let this version "fly".
I have been married (my first, and last, hopefully)for three years and have come to realize that my "devotion to my employer" (whatever that is supposed to mean) by working excessive hours over the "normal work week" (whatever that is supposed to mean)has been the result of my attempts at developing a "good will" quotient at work. It is intrusive on my personal life, and I don't have a good concept of "how-much-is-enough".
I mean to express that, at least for now, I still beleive in a law of "reaping-and-sowing" such that I feel that I should "put-in" (hours, other ways of returning value, etc.) before I expect to "get-out" (receiving promotions, salary increases, ensuring a greater likelihood of surviving a corporate re-engineering of its staff, and the like).
It makes me feel foolish now to admit that when I first began my engineering career, I used to scoff under-my-breath about the folks who showed up late, took long lunch brakes and left early every day. I used to admire not the "work-a-holic" but held in high-esteem the company "good-'ol-grinder". However, maybe these people that I once considered as "slackers" really have a more healthy approach to their management of life and a "normal" work week(40 hours?...hoo-ha!).
Does there exist a reasonable approach in dealing with the employer/immediate manager when "un-paid" overtime in the company culture appears to be the norm? Does one reasonably set (only for the purpose of this example) a 10-hour-per-week-limit for an un-paid "overtime-gift" to the employer? Or,is this a contemporarily perverse notion, and simply a matter of discipline and self-teaching to "put-the-calculator-down-at-5:00" and "beat-feet" out of the office?
It just has been the case, again in my bailiwick, that incompetent, lazy, bumblers can be seen receiving just as many kudos (if not more) than those who really seem to always put-forth the "yeoman's effort" (seems to be about 15-20% of employees that fall into this category).
In short (much too late to say that now, I guess) how much extra weekly work should one reasonably provide his/her employer with, that is not compensated by either increased income or vacation time? Could the answer be "0"?
This issue has confounded me ever since I have joined the ranks of the salaried work-world. When I was employed as a refinery operator, I could always count on getting paid for all of the time that I spent at the plant...just as a case-in-point. Should any of you have any thoughts on this matter, I would most genuinely appreciate each and every response. My best regards to all of you.
Pete





RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
There is an unwritten (and, in fact, illegal) rule that you have to do 5 hours in a week before getting paid OT.
I work to the exact hours in my contract. I have not claimed overtime in two years, and flex time off if I work late (or more likely come in early) if there is a rush job or if I need access to multiple workstations.
I would add that I get good, but not great, appraisals.
Most people who spend long hours in the office are probably failing to do their actual job, and are spending too much time doing the wrong things. Sitting at my desk doodling on a piece of paper is part of my job. Filling in spreadsheets for somebody else is not.
So to answer your questions, my employer thinks we should do 7, is prepared to compensate us after 5, and I do 0.
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
(I hope that a "non-Aussie" can use that greeting without appearing presumptuous.)
Thanks for the "brotherly" advice! I feel much better about going through with my plans to put my current hourly donations on a "slim-fast" diet.
Thank you for your time and sharing your opinion.
Cheers!
Pete
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
The rest of my time is spent doing two things. First is a long term project, that will bear no directly useful fruit for 4 years. It is an annoying mixture of stuff that I am good at, and computing nonsense (TCP protocols and things like that). This is very interesting indeed, but no one in the entire company would notice if it goes down the gurgler, although it may get a few more supporters when I start to publish results later this year. It isn't rocket science by the way, but we are the first section in our multinational corporation to do it, so we feel like cutting edge.
The other thing I do is work with project teams on their problems (all non-scheduled engineering activities are essentially problems, in our corporate language). This is where I /really/ earn the dollars, I think.
So at a rough guess 30% of my time is spent doing something that could easily be sacrificed if we had too many problems, or if the mundane work spikes up. Now, oddly enough the mundane work has increased up over the past couple of years, so my predecessor's reaction was to identify the most boring part of the mundane work, and teach his customer how to do it, giving them more direct control. This Machievellian little plot has worked perfectly in reducing my mundane workload, plus I get kudos for spreading the word, increasing other people's skill sets, etc etc. The people we've do this to, like it, as the tool (ADAMS) looks good on their resumes and is fun to use anyway.
So if you've got too much work, find someone else to do it!
Here's some other things that will save you time:
Never plan on attending the same meeting as your boss, unless you are being brought on as a dancing bear. If it is a routine technical meeting why is he there? To override you?
Talk to your manager for 1/2 hour a week, so he knows what you are doing. If he wants a summary give him a verbal one. (I am bad at this, I haven't talked to my boss for 9 weeks!)
If other people want you to recast your data to fit their reports give them your raw data, or find a secretary. You are not a data entry clerk.
Take minutes during the meeting and issue handwritten markups only.
Cut down on meetings. I go to only two regularly every week now. Very little happens in a week, it is often worth using a once-every-two weeks schedule. I could go to two a day - so that's saved me a whole day a week even if they only go for an hour.
Use a formal problem solving methodology and understand how it works. Most of our problems solve themselves once we figure out what the real problem is.
Make sure that even impromptu meetings have a defined purpose and scope, and, preferably, an agenda.
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
It is fast becoming the norm not to pay overtime, though not apparently in the US, YET. At least overtime payment rewards you for your time and penalises the company. We were "bought out" with the management line that they wanted a more professional attitude from staff with a fixed salary. That attitude didn't apply to contractors, strangely, who quite rightly were paid for every minute they were there and yet were hired because they were qualified professionals.
Have a life, go home, and help someone find a job who is unemployed.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
An employment agreement is a contract. I give my employer the best quality effort I can muster for the time wee agreed upon. I do not count "unwritten expectations" as part of that agreement.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
Having spent almost 10 years in automotive, and the last 4 years in high end handheld electronics, I can state with confidence that the product sectors are COMPLETELY different. While automotive timetables are rigid and absolute, consumer electronics offer the added joy of new technology (that hasn't been proven), cut throat business practices, and the ever tightening turn-around time from concept to finished product.
However, please don't take this to be slam against either field. I enjoy the chance to solve problems from the most basic of levels (semiconductor design and validation), to the system level (interaction between base stations and the phone). So please don't insist that simply because I have a LOT of work to do, that I am just inefficient. Effeciency is a prerequisite for my job!
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
I have since traded the good money I was making in that industry for good time with my family. More than a fair trade.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
I know that this analysis sounds unusual, but a surprising number of folks have told me that it does make sense when thought about for a while.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
A significant number of our problems are solved, or at least most intensely examined, down the pub. The work environment is not generally a good place for sustained deep thought - and that is what some problems need, obviously. I also find mowing the lawn is a good time to mull the complex ones over.
Oh here's another one - last week I found a paper on the efficiency of brainstorming - and to my total lack of surprise it suggested TWO people as the optimum number of brainstormers. The primary purpose of getting the whole project team together in a b/s (grin) session is to get group buy-in to the solution, it does not generate better solutions in itself.
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
Would I like to tell my boss to take a flying leap, of course. Unfortunately, I don't have enough financial flexibility to be out of work for an extended period of time (thanks in part to the wonderful US economy). Since I am no smarter than the people I work with, the only way to distinguish myself from my collegues is to out hustle them. When push comes to shove, I want to be the person that they call on!
Just my opinion...
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
Excellent question. One I suspect that all ancient Professionals have faced. My epiphany was when my wife said " Your work or me" I looked at what I was doing.
It is easy to be a workaholic. Managment loves you. It is the "nature of the beast" that companies are formed for profit. They make this from your effort. It then follows that any employer will welcome your extra effort in most forms.( meaning legal methods) If this kind of recognition is your drive however, you ought to try charity work. They love you more and it is something that you can share with ones for whom you care. Each person I have worked for will say I gave good value. That is my standard. Some I reaped a nice profit, some not, continued work was always related to compensation.
As I age my definition of compensation changes. Health insurance is a big part of family life. Not so when I was single or newly married. Travel was fun when there were two, with six it became impossible. Compensation is a personal issue. The peace you make is yours.
The truth will set you free. Best of luck. Geodude
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
Managers can be contrary. If you take the initiative they may reign you in and if you don't they'll encourage you to (its a control thing). The only way you'll find the best way is to talk to them in the first place.
As for people interfering with your work, tell them to take a running jump. Why did they employ you in the first place?
Use a whiteboard (with printer) in meetings and print out and copy the contents. Title, date and attendees at the top. Make sure everyone takes a copy of the printed minutes. No misunderstandings.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
"No one, on their deathbed, has ever wished to have spent more time at work."
Companies and managers are very greedy creatures and rarely care how long you spend at work. My managers, the good ones, anyway, care more about getting things done on schedule than the amount of overtime put in.
> Put in overtime when you NEED to, not to simply put it in, particularly, if someone else is able to do the same amount of work in less time; it simply makes you look incompetent and inefficient.
> Additionally, it makes you look like you don't have a life.
> Get your work done, quickly and efficiently. If you finish yuor work ahead of schedule, you can get brownie points for helping others finish their work.
> As an added bonus, when you DO put in overtime, it's obvious that you're putting in extra effort, instead of simply slogging on as usual.
> Take care of your home life now; when your kids become teenagers, they won't want to spend time with you and it'll be too late. Ditto with your wife.
TTFN
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
When I was a senior manager, I can assure you that senior managers and owners are only interested in one thing - themselves. Employees who continually work long hours are often viewed as suckers behind the scenes, and patted in the back in public. After all, if you can employ people on the basis of a 37 hour week, and then get them to work 48, its good business !
If you are going to continually work overtime, do it for yourself, for your business on the side, or embryo business. Everyone should be looking to how they can make themselves richer. That is how our capitalist economy works. Don't be afraid to put your interests first because no boss will. It might be a bit difficult to run a personal business from your employers offshore rig, but engineers are inventive people !
"Putting Automation into CAD ©"
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
1- Your manager
2- The company
Your manager can therefore take the credit for having the most "loyal staff" and the company can reap the benifit from its increased production / turnaround / output / whatever.
My own experience started in my current position, when joining the company the team I worked within excelled itself by offering an extra 10 hours per week each ( total 40 Hrs). Over a period of time and through discussions at the pub it transpired that everyone had the same thoughts but were seemingly unwilling to put forward their feelings incase they became the odd one out. Now as a team we no longer give our time freely unless we have a major rush project or any one of us needs the others assistance.
Our motto is simple
"work to live don't live to work".
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
Best regards
Morten
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
From that point on, if I found myself working overtime (and I often did) it was because I was working on stuff I was enjoying. When it stopped being fun I went home (or turned off the computer in my den). When someone asked me to do a dumb task with a silly deadline I simply missed the deadline and NO ONE CARED. I joined a carpool so I had a built-in excuse to walk out of meetings that had no end in sight. I never missed a soccer game or an elementary-school play because of "important meetings".
I had a job once where all of the boss' direct reports sat very close to the boss' office. In the evening they all sat around and waited for someone else to be the first to leave (it was never the boss, she didn't have a life outside the office) - most of those slugs started playing solitare or the like about 3:30. When I got transfered into the group I made it clear that I was in a carpool that left at 4:15 and I planned to be in it every evening. The rest said they were always at their desks till after 6:00. After a couple of years I got the highest raise and the only promotion - the boss said "David always gets his work done in a reasonable time frame and should be commended for balancing his work and family". The company was bought out shortly after that and none of the rest of the slugs made the change to the new company.
Overtime for the sake of appearance is never a good idea - most of the time the boss is smart enough to see that you're just polishing the apple.
David
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
Recommended only if your are desperate, see if your library has the following book:
"The Addictive Organization", by Anne Wilson Schaef and Diane Fassel. (Harper - ISBN 0-06-254841-7)
It obviously has its share of psycho-babble but its basic premise seems sound........"why we overwork, cover up, pick up the pieces, please the boss and perpetuate sick organizations"
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
I worked for a casting company, that was expected that you workled a Minimum of 9 hours overtime a week. After these 9 hours they then thought highly enough of you to pay you at a lesser hourly rate that you were already on. It was not uncommon for me to start at 6am and finish at 1 am the following following day only to be pulled up for coming in a bit later at 7 am. I worked easily 90 hours a week. And could have been earning more staking shelves in a supermarket.
You could work a saturday and sunday for them and not get paid for it.
The company directors installed a logic of constant work and shrinking deadlines. I decided that my life an health were far more important that work, so i took a pay cut and moved elsewhere.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
In my last work (manager - salaried position) we agreed that my weekly workload will be 45 hrs.
However, I did not realise how much of previously required work was not done. I worked 60+ hrs weeks to try to keep everything on schedule. Even this was not enough. I asked my boss (Company General Manager) to hire some help. Without success. Some work was done late. After two month a new GM arrived (old one retired but he had a good technical experiance, new one was coming with no technical background). Two month later I finished work for this company. And it is not me who is a loser.
My final though: work even a little bit more than minimum required, but do not expect any special recognition for this. If your boss do not understand what the work load is, it should be his problem, not yours. Even in tough time like now, it is better to leave him alone.
John
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
I now work for a small engineering firm whose work is growing like mad, but the management is afraid of a downturn and won't hire anymore people -- they treat us exceptionally well, but I'm putting in more hours than I did before and I'm already burned out -- are the hours worth it -- not anymore.... I'd like to find a stress-free 10 to 2 job that pays as well...
if you enjoy work, then maybe the hours don't hurt -- if you enjoy other things (or should), then 'zdas04' has the right attitude...
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
Make sure your work input, matches the company's compensation output. If there is a mismatch in this equation, one side of it needs to be adjusted. You can ask for a pay raise, get a promotion that recognizes your ability, or cut back on your work time. You may find that you get as much done working less hours because you are rested, more focused & efficient, and better at prioritizing.
Beware of the employers offering above average salary, but tell you after starting employment the salary was based on mandatory overtime. Exxon did this in the past and may still be.
Good luck with your family.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
I agree that some jobs require the occasional OT to get something done or to put out fires. However, I would never do it continuously without compensation. Its only fair.
I used to work at a design/mfg place where they brought in a new engineer (a Senior Design Engineer that had 5 years experience). As soon as this guy started he was staying til 7-8 at night. Now he had no big projects, no deadlines, nothing to do that could not wait. He insisted on working the 12 hours a day. After observing his habits during the day, I noticed his time was being wasted surfing the net and BS'ing and trying to educate our interns on engineering. Hah, the guy was being laughed at the whole time. Now the manager, he loved it and gave the guy a key so he could stay late. Evidentally he bought into his long hour routine. Later it was discovered, he was waiting til everyone left, then he would leave for a couple of hours then come back to shut off his computer. He was striving to be the last one to leave to cast an image of a hard worker. This kind of person has no real backbone in my opinion. However, management likes it because it shows commitment. Now if the manager at this particular place had a clue, they would see right through it. Since this is a small company, the engineer is not going to get promoted to anything. He only succeeded in making many enemies at work because of his need to be a brown noser.
I never work uncompensated anymore except on a rare occasion. Those that give the employer free hours when it is NOT NEEDED are only hurting themselves and the rest of us engineers who have a life. Notice, I capitalized NOT NEEDED.
If you work 50 hours a week and get paid for forty hours,say at a rate of $35/hr. Then in one month you actually worked 200 hours, got paid for 160 hrs. So your new hourly rate is (35*160)/200 =5600/200= $28/hr. If you work 60 hrs each week and get paid for 40 only then your $35/hr is now 5600/240~$23/hr.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
As long as you perform your job competently and effectively, I've found that managers who make these type of unreasonable requests are not accustomed to hearing an employee tell them no. I have made it clear where I stand on several issues, and overtime is something that I will not put in again for my current employer. In my opinion, any overtime that you put in should be compensated by equal time off or by an equivalent hourly rate. If neither of these options are available to you, then your overtime hours should be zero.
Maui
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
As stated by others above, try to be as efficient as you can and don't forget the world outside of work. Excessive overtime makes you look inefficient. If the axe comes, the efficient employees will stay. Manage your career, before someone else does.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
Family
Work
Service club
I have not seem many clubs that don't live by this rule. I have worked some high pressure jobs and done the overtime, etc without complaint until one day I realised that yes work was good, but family was better and more fun.
I now tell any client or employer that I work to the above rule and if they don't like it then I have no wish to work for them. Yes I have missed out on a few contracts because of it but I'm still married and I still get to see my family during the week and on the weekends.
regards
sc
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
When I was an employee, I was always compensated for my overtime ever since an informal agreement was violated. This agreement was that I could take flextime to compensate for all the overtime I was working. When I asked for a couple of days off I was told that the half day I had last month was full compensation for working 13 weeks without a day off and a lot of 10-12 hour days. Luckily for me I had documented the hours worked and submitted a formal request for overtime pay and collected a tidy sum.
When I have had employees I have always insisted that they charge for the time worked and see that they are paid, either as direct pay at time and one half or compensatory time off again at 1.5 times overtime worked.
Your job agreement is a contract. You will have to live up to your part of it, why shouldn’t the employer? There are also labour laws that may apply. (Although for some reason in Manitoba, engineering work is specifically exempted from the overtime requirements.)
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
I look at it as I'm being paid X dollars per month to do Y. If I get Y done in 20 hours a week my employer struck a bad deal (unless X is really low). If it takes me 60 hours a week, I struck a bad deal (unless X is really high) and I'd better renegotate or go elsewhere.
In general, the figures I've used from the employer's standpoint is actual hours worked should average between 90% to 115% of 40 hours. Any more or any less and productivity will suffer after time.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
It may be the:
Company's extreme aggressiveness, which leads to a take the money and run company culture.
Manager's unreasonable expectations and promises.
Lack of experience during project planning.
Company's client manager trying to make a name for him/herself on other peoples back.
Employees not in the right role.
If we all step back and think this through maybe this wouldn't be an issue.
As an employee, is this the kind of company one wants to work for in the long run? As a shareholder is it healthy for sustained growth?
Regards
VOD
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
One thing I learned recently is be careful how your salary is calculated to come up with an hourly wage. I always used 12 months for this calculation but most employers use the 52 weeks to come up with an hourly wage. I guess I was spoiled by a company that used 12 months to calculate this since 52 weeks will give you a lower hourly wage.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
2080 = number of hours worked during a year (40 x 52).
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
I occasionally sit down and do the calculation for my work and use between 2340 and 2600 as my denominator (45-50 hr week) as that is required by my boss... and find that my hourly wage goes down by 5 to 6 dollars an hour. Thats a lovely thought to leave work with after a 48hr week!
No I am not incompetant in my job and there is really no reason why I would have to work an extra day every week, other than the fact that my boss and my boss's boss require it. There are larger compensational problems at my company that I won't go into. Let's just say that the economy right now is not employee friendly.
Unfortunately, there are engineering managers out there who care little about productivity and realistic schedules and only care about your timecard. If it can't be measured, graphed or otherwise quantified, it isn't real!
miner
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
Miner00; the economy is tough right now so one can not make to many waves. I believe the sacrifices made by previous engineers has only added to the busnessman's greed. They have come to expect that engineers will work long hours without compensation, even if they do not make a decent amount of money. Contributing to this is the fact that engineers continue to work hard and are willing to put in more hours. Mostly, because they like there work. The employers are capitalizing on this. The failure to compensate an engineer who continuously needs or wants to work extra hours says a lot about a company. Maybe one day the employers will realize that engineers do network and a bad companies reputation will soon catch up with them by lack of qualified personnel.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
If your company expects more of you than you are willing to give, I suggest you look for a more compatable position elsewhere.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
The alternative is to find the company where thebgidog works.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
It is not that engineers are not willing to give but when you get nothing back, then the only real course of action is to give less. This is human nature. It is and always will be a two way street. Most employers do not really care. It used to be a good company was easy to find now they are a unique.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
The truth will set you free. Best of luck. Geodude
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
TTFN
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
Evidentally you did not read all the posts. This is the way my first employer out of college calculated hourly wages for the sake of OT (major oil field company: pumps, drives, and service). Let me explain. Divide salary by 12 for the number of months, then divide by 160 hours (four weeks) in a month to calculate an hourly wage. As I said before, this is certainly not the traditional way but was the way they calculated your hourly wage. Yes it leads to a higher hourly wage.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
This means that you were being cheated out of 8% of your salary.
Regardless of what they tell you, there are 52 weeks in a year and 2080 working hrs in a year.
TTFN
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
if x>0 and y>160, which is bigger: x/160 or x/y? Dividing by fewer hours leads to larger hourly pay.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
If it makes you feel better to be fooled into thinking you're being paid more, then that's a different issue altogether.
TTFN
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
I suggest to all of those that feel the need to jump on the bandwagon to learn how to read or put the concept into practice and read before you post.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
I recently read an article that appeared in some Trade Journal. Read it ... Learn it ... Live it ...
Enjoy:
It’s a job
by Gregory Robson
Your world has become a community of instant communication and high-tech productivity. Your workstation is filled with the fastest components to help you produce more in less time. You work (or your peers do) in 3D modeling and collaborate on the Web. Your online home page gives you the latest news—and even information on how to cope with the reality of downsizing. Your monthly issue of Cadalyst helps you see where technology is taking your profession, and provides tips and tricks so you can work more efficiently.
When you add to all of this the ever-increasing demand to maximize productivity, increase revenue, and cut expenditures, you’ll likely find yourself spending 50 or more hours a week at your job, plus a few more hours thinking about it. Your fast-paced existence has snared you.
What exactly is your job? Is it your identity? Is it your personality? Is it the fiber that makes you whole? No, your job is just that—your job. It’s what you do for a living. It provides what you need to live. It’s an important aspect of your life, and you should strive to do it the very best you can. But it’s not the only aspect of your life.
You are, first and foremost, a human being. You have a heart and a soul and emotions. These are the things that make you who you are. They are with you everywhere, even at your job. If you don’t devote enough time to nourishing them, your focus becomes misdirected and you are no longer balanced. Your ability to make good decisions becomes skewed. All aspects of your life then suffer—including your job.
In today’s demanding world, it’s easy to allow your job to take over your life. But you must not let it. You must strive to do your very best not just at your job, but at living well. How you nourish and enrich yourself is an individual choice.
Perhaps it is exercising regularly and developing better eating habits. Stress does contribute to binge eating and drinking and other bad habits.
Perhaps it’s being kinder, more thoughtful, or more loving. Try being a better friend to someone or smiling at strangers. Try visiting a home for the elderly. Take some flowers or a book with you. Tell your spouse, “I love you,” as you start each day. Try sitting in the sunshine watching the clouds or throwing a ball for your dog. Do something that will make you feel good inside.
Jobs can come and go, but you get only one life. So enjoy it and don’t work yourself to death — that will come soon enough.
Cheers ... :)
Brian Mazejka
P.S. What's the solution to working long hours ? I'm not really sure, but I know in the long run, I'll feel better knowing I put my family/friends FIRST.
The old saying really does apply here ... "Work to Live, NOT Live to Work."
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
In a similar vein I was talking to some friends about annual leave. One who had worked in the USA said that two weeks was the norm. Is this true??? This seems terribly low. In New Zealand 3 weeks is the minimum allowed by law and a lot of companies standardise on 4 which is what our company has done. I was on 5 weeks annual leave in my previous company although this seemed to be quite unique. I understand that European companies grant longer annual leave - 4 to 5 weeks?
Is this correct?
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
In the UK I was on 26 days annual leave when I left.
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
Yep we have it fairly good here in Australia.
As an additional question how much unpaid overtime do you work in a year?
I once thought that as professionals we had it fairly good, until I looked at the unpaid overtime of some friends. Some were working as much as an extra 10 days a year (average was 7 days by consensus of the group). So the actual annual leave if you like was only 13 days. Sick leave for most industries, especially factories/private companies is only 10 days minimum (still accrues). Now some sectors are only allowing sick leave to accrue for 2 years before it is returned to 10 days available.
On the whole though we still have it fairly good here.
Regards
sc
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
One thing is that once you decide to change jobs, you might end up the clock over again at 2 years if you cannot negotiate the additional time off up front. I've seen some people stay in a job that they were not enjoying because they did not want to start over at 2 weeks vacation with a new company.
Regards
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
The latest trend I've been seeing in some companies lately is that they'll roll sick days into your vacation days. And the sad thing is they don't tell you up front. Only when you ask AFTER you've agreed to the terms and taken the position will they tell you.
So you'll start a job think you're getting 3 weeks vacation when in fact whenever you use a sick day, you're using up vacation (you'd be amazed at how much time you can use during the winters up in New England when there's a significant snow storm and no way to get to work). Then when you plan on that BIG vacation and find out that you don't have enough time off ... wow.
Anyway, I like what I've heard from some other people in this thread who work in foriegn countries. 3 weeks minimum to start ??? That's the way it should be in the U.S.
But that's just my opinion ...
Cheers
Brian
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
There is no limit on the number of sick days as such. If you're sick then you're allowed 5 continuous days sickness after which you need a doctor's note. Seeing the doctor is of course free regardless of income, though those in work pay a national insurance of about 6%. After some months of sickness then your pay is reduced though that may vary from company to company. You may then be retired through ill health after that.
If you start putting a limit on the number of sick days then you'll have people going to work with all kinds of infections. There are some who will still go to work even though they are coughing up. I find that wearing a surgical mask when talking to them gets the message across that they should go home.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
Sure, there were difficult times, too; and when I got married I stopped working so much overtime; but I used my job to learn, and I don't regret a minute of overtime. If I weren't so busy consulting now, I'd be tempted to go back and work almost for free.
If you are thinking that you are doing too much overtime, it seems to me that you have deeper issues relative to enjoying your work, having conflicting goals, and feeling used. Some of the above posts have done a great job of sorting these out and of mentioning priorities in life.
Everyone is different. Not everyone likes long working hours; but I have found that the best engineers are the ones who love engineering. And for them, the distinction between work and enjoyment hardly exists (assuming the boss lets them do real engineering). Anyway, enjoying your work needn't mean brutal overtime hours, but it does mean working to get the most personal satisfaction out of your job. That usually involves doing a little bit more than you are asked to do, in order to get a bigger picture of the engineering problems.
Companies in countries with mandated lax vacation and sick leave rules strike me as anti-productive and passive, with workplace rules as regimented and wasteful of talent as a union shop. How do you keep up your initiative and enthusiasm for the job?
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
That said, I've put in my share of uncomp'd OT everyplace I've worked. I've also worked for a company that paid OT for fast-tracked projects.
If you work OT because you dig your job and simply want to spend more time there, that's great. However, there should be no expectation on behalf of an employer that its engineers will consistently provide their services for free.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
Another trick I've seen on a tv advert is to go out on the evening to a party or whatever and then go back to the office to sleep off the alcohol. The boss is usually the first in to the office in the morning and will think you've worked late and fallen asleep at your desk. Some explanations will be needed, however, if you have your wife/girlfriend/partner/go-go dancer, or whatever, with you.
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
I'll meet all my project deadlines, even with little odd projects that my manager throws at me, but if I work an even 40 hour work week or don't put in the "expected" 45 to 50 hours a week, I'm given the lecture about being a TEAM player and how I should put in the extra time.
What happened to being rewarded for getting things done early or on time and not having to work extra ???
RE: How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable?
Would my work improve? I doubt it.
Would I enjoy it more? Hard to believe.
So who wins? Oh, the shareholders. Well, they are already paying market rates for me. If the business is unprofitable I really doubt that my working for half pay is going to make enough of a difference, since my total annual pay is of the order of 1% of the CEO's annual bonus.
I have just one life to live. My employer is paying me to use hours up from that life in exchange for money which I can use to improve the rest of my hours. I do not think it is unreasonable that they should honour the written contract governing that exchange, as they demand that I honour my part of the same contract.
(I'll hop off the soapbox now)
Cheers
Greg Locock