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O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

(OP)
Hello all,

Since I started working with SolidWorks (but applies to any software) I spend long hours on the computer and I have developed what my doctor is calling "Mouse Shoulder". A terrible pain in my shoulder/neck area. I was calling it a Pinched Nerve for a while. It's been a few years in the making and I have tried the Ergo Mouses, the Ergo Station with the correct arrangements of everything, Ergo Chairs and some other stuff I have since forgotten about. The Ergo stuff seems to help, but twice as good as agony is still only misery, and I was hoping for better than that. My doctor, a physical therapist says that I need to spend less time on the computer. Even though this is a Workers Comp issue, I'm not looking to take advantage of that.

My question is: Has anybody found a way to treat "Mouse Shoulder" in an effective way? The doc had a thing called a Theracane at his office, it felt OK, but seemed like I had to use the muscles that hurt to operate the thing. He had a picture of a thing called a Pressure Pointer, it looked like some kind of a foot powered Theracane. Has anyone used a Pressure Pointer or Theracane? Or anything else that seems to help. I'd like to get an hour long shoulder massage every day by someone named Inga or maybe Anna, I'll see what the boss says about funding that.

Thanks for any ideas!

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

http://www.prio.com
funny how glasses can help your posture
if i was a celebrity i would give them a free endorsement

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

I got rid of the traditional mouse and moved to the Thumb controlled trackball. This has helped me over come the shoulder pain I once felt. I suffer from bursitis so the less movement I have in my right shoulder the better my day is. Trackman Marble Wheel by Logitech is the new mouse I use. It took about 2 weeks to get used too but I won't switch now.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
3DVision Technologies
http://www.3dvisiontech.com
http://www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376
When in doubt, always check the help

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

Yoga.

Buy, read, and practice Yoga for Athletes: Secrets of an Olympic Coach by Aladar Kogler.

Any videos with Rodney Yee are good for starters.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

Is your arm supported from the elbow down? Mine is at work and I have no particular problems. We have sort of wraparound tables that allow this.
At home, I have minimal support, my elbow "sort of" rests on my chair armrest and the heel of my palm is on the mouse pad and I can do very little work without discomfort.

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

HobieTCat--

I have the same problem when I do lots of work with the mouse.

I support my arm from the foream down and dont let rest on my wrist or hands... I still get a very sore sholder when I work too long with the mouse. We are talking about getting a space ball? here at work to go with SW I ll post if theres any change.

nick

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

A spaceball is great for your Left hand, but you still have to use a mouse. You should look at the trackballs. Using a trackball means you don't have to move your Shoulder, Elbow or wrist. Only the fingers or in my case the thumb. You should still support your arm, but you don't have to move it. I too use a Spaceball and it's nice for your left hand, but your problem will still be there.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
3DVision Technologies
http://www.3dvisiontech.com
http://www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376
When in doubt, always check the help

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

Before you do anything complicated - start with the simplest fix.
Make sure your arm is supported from the elbow down.
Think about lifting your desk up a little - I have a block of 2X4 under my desk legs.
Sounds like your lifting your shoulder while you mouse.
Your probably in the habit of pivoting your mouse on your wrist - very bad.
It concentrates the pressure on that small surface area - I'm supprised your fingers don't tingle.
But in order to pivot on your wrist, you have to lift your shoulder a little - constant tension in your neck.
Make an effort to mouse with your entire forearm - even if you have to wear a wrist splint for a while.
If it sounds like I'm speaking from experience - I am.
Sometimes just changing the ergonomics of your work-station helps indirectly.
Bottom line - change something - let it ride for a few weeks - then change something else.
You'll figure it out...


This will look favorable on my next review.
tatejATusfilter.com

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

A track ball seems the best bet. Using a mouse, you tend to lean to the opposite side of the arm that you are using to help keep the wrist in a position that can be moved during mouse movement...causing neck and shoulder pain. Use a track ball and most of the movement is in the fingers.
good luck

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

I cranked up the "reaction speed" or the sensitivity and acceleration of the mouse too. It takes much less movement to get accross the screen, a little hard to get used to, and the I.T. guy will curse you while he tries to install some new software but that's life. Total mouse movement of about 1 in to move accross the 21" monitor. Combine this with the wrist pad my arm doesn't have to move at all. The spaceball cuts down on movement too.

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

Mike:

I kinda went through that with the spaceball (when I had one).  I started really ham-fisted and had the sensitivity cranked way down.  After a while I habituated myself to using it at a higher sensitivity.  It really does save "wear and tear" on one's extremities.  Same is true for mouse (and for guitar).

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

(OP)
Thanks for all the ideas,

I'll try not to use my wrist to move the mouse, I have not heard of that one yet. I do have my elbow supported, and that did help a lot, but I still get knots in my neck and shoulder(s). I've been fighting back pain in general since I was in high school, and been learning many techniques to keep from developing the pain. I think that other daily activities like driving and carrying a briefcase may be a factor also.
 
Anyone tried Trigger Point therapy or anything like it? That's what my doctor is telling me to do since I can't seem to totally prevent the problem, he says I should at least try to treat it. Sounds logical.

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

A faster mouse helps

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

Try a good Osteopath to get your back straightened out.
Not cheap but very effective.

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

I had this problem at one point while designing all day.
I found that if I lean forward in my chair it creates a lot of stress in my neck and shoulders.

I figured it out one day when I had a different chair that made me lay back in it and rest my head against the back of the seat.

Also, it helped to have my arm lay horizontal or just a little above ( meaning that my arm angled downward slightly away from me as it rests on the desk surface ).

These days I can design using Pro-E or SolidWorks for hours on end with no side effects whatsoever except the fact that I postpone bathroom breaks because I am so comfortable in my chair.

By the way, I use a Herman Miller chair. And yes, a quality chair does improve your comfort by a large margin.

Do yourself a favor and create a posture grid in Excel and rate all variations, i.e. hand, neck, arm, legs, feet, wrist angle, monitor position & distance, keyboard distance & position, type of mouse ( i.e., corded with ball, cordless with ball, optical with cord, optical cordless, etc. ) The optical cordless mouse has helped tremendously for me.

Also, you should have good eyesight to begin with. If you can't see well, it is automatic that you will lean into the screen to work. If this the case, then decrease screen resolution by on or two levels.

Good Luck! I know what you are going through.

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

re: adaniel65 Also, you should have good eyesight to begin with. If you can't see well, it is automatic that you will lean into the screen to work.

I can't say enough good things about my PRIO glasses.  They have helped eliminate 99+% of eye-strain headaches and shoulder strain for me.  Believe me, I was gretting some crippling headaches and neck pain, sometimes so bad that I couldn't drive home from work.  Glasses?  Heck, yeah!  Not just tinted glasses, either.  You have to go to their web site and see.
http://www.prio.com

Even if you have 20/20 vision or wear contacts, you can benefit from using PRIO glasses.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

  When I started having wrist problems with my right hand, I just switched mouse hands.  I am left handed anyway, so I might have had an easier time than most, but it still took some time to get used to it.

  I now use my left hand when I am at work, and my right hand at home.  Another approach is to alternate between a mouse and a tablet, but that may not help a shoulder problem.

  I don't think one kind of pointing device is much better than any other.  The idea is to avoid using the same joint, the same way, over and over.

Joe

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

About 3 months ago I was having bad pains in my right fingers and wrist.  So I bought a trackball.  But I didn't stop there.  I use the trackball lefthanded.  Sounds odd but I have found that you can type on the number keypad without moving your left hand off the ball.  Now that I'm used to it I kind of like the setup.  I still use a right handed mouse at home for other stuff.  Funny thing is that I can't use the trackball with my right hand.  I really suck with it.

That way you take all the stress of the right hand shoulder and neck.

Boggs

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

Being an ID guy, I'm often confronted with human factors and ergonomics to help minimize user strain in my product designs.  Many of the posts in this thread are useful hints in this area.

Mouse speed should be so high you only need slight movement of your fingers to properly operate your pointer (takes practice).  Eliminate the concentration of strain/movement required of single joints.  I don't move my wrist while using my optical mouse.

Herman Miller makes some of the best-designed chairs (and desks, etc.) in the world.  This truly helps.  If you have a cheesy chair with arms that disappear as they approach the edge of your desk you might as well take the arms off--except, of course, that they are holding your cheesy chair together.  These are no good.  Get a chair with arms that reach your fore-arms.

This brings us to the problem of furniture fiting.  Good arm rests often collide with the edge of your desk.  I once saw a great product that is a fore-arm rest that clamps to the edge of the desk and swivels to allow normal movement of your arms while providing full gravitational support to remove the strain from your shoulder.  You may still be able to find this thing in a good office-supply store or computer store--possibly by Targus or some similar company.

Doctors don't fix problems with drugs--they mask the symptoms.  The problem in this area is in clenching muscles and causing skeletal and nerve strain.  If you know a good chiropractor (hard to find in my area), you can get help from them.  (I recommend guys who use the Gonstead method.)  However, you must still fix the problem behind the symptoms of the clenched muscles by providing an adequate work environment for yourself.  I find I often clench my shoulder and neck out of habit.  After fixing your work environment, start practicing how to relax your shoulder and neck while working.  (This actually takes practice most of the time.)

I use UV-blocking computer glasses even though I have 20-16 vision.  In fact, this is a must if you want to keep your vision from degrading.  These screens are terrible for eyes and office lighting such as flickering fluorescent isn't much better.  I think I'll even check out the recommendations for the Prio glasses just to see what they offer.

One more thing I notice a lot of people doing wrong.  Tilt your keyboard away from you--not toward you.  Your fore-arm should stay somewhat parallel with the back of your hand while typing.  If you jack your hand back to type, you're causing strain in your wrists for no reason.  Get rid of the feet under your keyboard unless they're propping your keyboard away from you.  I don't understand why the feet usually bias the keyboard into the worst position for typing except perhaps that you can see the keys better that way.  (I've even put things under the front of my keyboard to accomplish this on older keyboards.)  Try it and you'll see what I mean.

The general principals are more important than the specific ways you implement them.  There are lots of ways.  Reduce stress and strain any way you can.

Hope that helps.


Jeff Mowry
DesignHaus Industrial Design
http://www.designhaus-i-d.com

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

(OP)
Thanks for all the tips. It sounds like most of you have had success with the ergonomic path, that path reduced my problem but certainly did not eliminate it. I decided to buy a Pressure Pointer (they have a 30 day guarantee), since things like a maassage, rolling on a tennis ball or leaning into a door jam seem to ease the pain, this seems like a cheap thing to try. It should be here today or tomorrow.

Does anyone want hear about how it works? I'll post back if anyone is interested.

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

Here's something else to consider - if it's not too late:
http://www.naturalis.co.uk/bonger_massage.htm
BTW - this was just the first link that came up.
Have a look at these - here and other sites.
Then do like I did - buy some 1/2" dowels, 2 spongey rubber balls & some rubber cement - & build your own.
If I had a digital camera I'd take a picture.

tatej usfilter.com

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

I posted about this about 9-12 months ago, but couldn't find it, so this is a repost mostly.

I notice that too many people sit too low in thier chairs.  You should sit with your thighs parallel to the ground.  Also, I notice people tend to sit on the front 1/3 of thier chair, instead of fully supporting thier thighs on the chair.

Elbows should be supported, with fore arms parallel with your desk.  Pull your mouse closer to you so you aren't reaching for it with your arm.  That will cause stress in your shoulder.

Your monitor should be perpendicular to your field of view, meaning you might have to prop-up your monitor a few inches, or angle the screen up a bit.

For mouse options, I have been very happy with my Logetic Marble Mouse.  I can control the trackball with my index and middle fingers, giving me great control.  It's a bit odd using your thumb for LMB, but you pick it up fast.  For RMB I use my ring finger.  A nice thing about these types of pointing devices is that you are not required to move your arm or wrist.  All the motion is done through your fingers.

Speaking of pointing devices, has anyone in our small community gone and purchsed an Inspector mouse form www.dimentor.com yet?  I'm still trying to decide if its worth the $150-$200.

MadMango
"Probable impossibilities are to be preferred to improbable possibilities."
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

MadMango,

Your suggestions are very good MadMango for short to average height people, but what about us tall people? My chair is as high as it will go (I have to stop early in my chair, because the keyboard rest hangs below the desk). So my legs are not quite parallel to my chair. My monitor is a 22" monster so I don't have much trouble seeing it, but I still hump over because I'm so tall. I have a natural keyboard and the Logitech Trackman Marble Wheel. Those 2 items help me tremendously for shoulder, elbow and wrist pain...isn't much I can do about my back and neck. Yes I have a High back chair, but sit over the top by about a full heads length. The best thing I can do is lean back and work...hopefully I won't need to sit upright very often. I only sit up when I type in the NG's because my laptop is just to my left of me.... maybe that's why my back hurts I spend too much time here .


Inspector mouse:
If I remember right I asked the AE's here and they agreed it was neat looking but bit very practical. They said it was cumbersome to use.

I'm sure once you got over the transition of switching to a new mouse you might like it, but that's a change you would have to take. If you do get it, let us know how you like it or dislike like.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
3DVision Technologies
http://www.3dvisiontech.com
http://www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376
When in doubt, always check the help

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

Scott, I'm by no means tall (5'10") but even I had to raise my keyboard just over an 1" to keep my forearms parallel after I raised my chair.  Some folks where I work have to do the same thing with thier monitors.  I guess they found a use for those old What's New manuals for SW.

Many people that had keyboard trays have moved their keyboards to the desk, and have converted those trays to "junk drawers".  I don't have any solutions for you corn-fed monsters that top out at 6'4".

MadMango
"Probable impossibilities are to be preferred to improbable possibilities."
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

I guess they found a use for those old What's New manuals for SW.

Well if 6'4" is a monster , then what am I? I stand 6'7"....maybe



I have no room on top my desk to move my keyboard to the top...Monitor takes all that space.

Best Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
3DVision Technologies
http://www.3dvisiontech.com
http://www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376
When in doubt, always check the help

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

2x4's work great for lifting the desk just high enough for your middle drawer to clear your quads.
Then you can hike-up that chair.

On a slightly different subject... Have any of y'all ever worked standing up?
My favorite office - to date - was the end room of a double-wide trailer.
I had one of those old Mayline drafting tables with the electric foot-pedal for lift and the lever for tilting the table.
My monitor was at the top/back and keyboard & mouse in front.
Plenty of roome for drawings and krap.
I kept it tilted 10=/- degrees and worked sitting a while... then stepped on the pedal, cranked up the tunes, and worked standing for a while.
It was great!
No back/neck pain at all - I could very much vary my work posture.
I've considered getting a drafting stool and lifting my desk to drafting table height - so I could get close to Nervana again.

tatej usfilter.com

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

SBaugh...
Pull your desk away from the wall & let the a$$-end of your monitor hang over.
It seems a little odd at first - what with all that space behind your desk and all - but you'll be a rebel & gain the respect of your peers... plus a little real estate for your keyboard and mouse

tatej usfilter.com

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

It is simple to make a desk for the keyboard and mouse. I made one similar to the old desk that I had in school, but without the seat. You know the design, shaped like a fat 7 for right handed people. Could even make it an upside down U for those two handed designers. Just cut a sheet of plywood the shape that you need and put some legs under it. I happened to have an old desk with adjustable legs and I used those legs. The keyboard sits on it and you can move it relative to the monitor and your chair relative to it. Your forearm then sits on the armrest part of the top to control the mouse which sits beside the keyboard. I have some foam rubber for my forearm and elbow; and one of those super duper gel mouse pads to rest my wrist. My homemade desk is kind of ugly, but it works great for me.

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

I can't push the monitor back any more because the shelves are in the way and the shelves are what pretty much hold the top of the desk togther. I would show you a picture but I can't find it.


but you'll be a rebel & gain the respect of your peers

I have no peers around me... I sit here allll by myself - Ahhh the agony of it all.

I would make my own table, but I have a few more things on my plate to do, so I don't have that kind of time to put into a desk.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
3DVision Technologies
http://www.3dvisiontech.com
http://www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376
When in doubt, always check the help

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

HobieTCat

I have to agree with Scott Baugh

     A couple of years ago, I got a little angry and managed to break a couple knuckles on my right hand. The doctor put a cast on it that wouldn’t allow me to hold onto a mouse. I am sure that I looked very comical – trying to spear my mouse whenever I needed to use it. I went to my friendly computer store and tried everything they had and eventually purchased a Logitech Cordless Trackman trackball for about $60. It allowed me to continue working which was all that I cared about. After the cast came off I continued using the track ball for a while - but then I unplugged it intending to take it home and use it on my home system. A couple of days later the low level pains in my neck and arm started bothering me again.

     I couldn’t understand what was going on – they for hadn’t bothered me for several months but now they were back. I spotted the track ball still sitting on my desk and hooked it back up thinking that it couldn’t make any difference. A few days later most of the pain was gone and I purchased a second one on my home system. I now own 4 of them, I even have one for my laptop.

     My feet and lower back bothered me as well. I wasn’t aware of it – but my wife told me that I always sat hunched over the keyboard like a vulture over its prey. I started paying attention to my posture and realized that besides that, my legs were bent under me most of the time and that at least one ankle was actually resting on the floor instead of my feet. I stand 6’ 0” so I don’t consider myself all that tall, but I swear that most desks and chairs are designed for short people – nobody taller than 5’ 6” allowed.

     I didn’t have much control over the furniture that I had at work, but I was able to trade for a higher chair. That made the desk too short so I added a couple of 2x4s under it and that helped a lot. Unfortunately, I had a cheap desk and chair at home where I spend a lot of time. I tried raising my chair but at the max height it was still too low for me. Even so, that caused problems because every time I got up the arms of the chair hit the bottom of the desk and made my monitor dance (the book is entitled “How to destroy a $300 Monitor with a $60 Chair” by Duhh). I eventually threw out both the desk and the chair and started over again.

     I really glad that I did. I picked a chair that actually fit me and allows good posture. Then I found a desk that was tall enough for the chair to fit under it at the highest level. This desk is on wheels and has a raised platform for the monitor. I love the wheels – but the desk is exactly what I needed. The center of the monitor is at eye level, my arms rest on the desk, and my posture is much better.

     The best part of all this is that I can work for 10 or 12 hours without experiencing a fourth of the pain that I used to have every day.

Lee


Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

This is what works for me, (aka the SOCK SOLUTION):
1. chair with back support, that you can lay back at about 15%.  Arms can be fixed or adjustable but, as many others have noted, elbows MUST be supported.
Note:  the old Steelcase secretary chair with sprung back is actually more comfortable than the new $500 "ergonomic" ones.
2. Put OLD SOCK over chair arm, for comfort, so elbow can slide.
3. Keyboard drawer should be....
   a.  Flat
   b.  wide enough for keybaord AND full size mouse pad,
       (many aren't wide enough)
   c.  1" higher than armrest (OK, 25 mm.)
4. Keep mouse wrist warm.  In winter I wear an OLD SOCK - thumb goes through heel hole, cut off toes for fingers.
5. Screen center about 2'' (50mm) below eye line.
6. Tell yourself THIS IS FUN!  Maybe you are just too tense.
CARPAL TUNNEL note:  I cured mine 10 years ago by using some vitamin (B?) for a couple of weeks, also, I stopped playing minesweeper.

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

wide enough for keybaord AND full size mouse pad,
       (many aren't wide enough)


Perfect reason for a Tracknball!

I wish you could remember which vitamin it was - I need some!!

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
3DVision Technologies
http://www.3dvisiontech.com
http://www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376
When in doubt, always check the help

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

Your workstation (+ desk, chair, etc.) and your mattress:  these will account for where you spend well over half your adult life if you remain in this field.  Make sure both are not causing discomfort and damage.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

I'm telling ya - if you'd just beat yourself about the head & shoulders with a set of bongers - or have someone else do it - your whole outlook on life will change. I will occasionally bong myself - while thinking thru a design problem. So far no one has walked in on me doing it - but it's just a matter of time. I don't care - I can't help it -it's worth the risk. If bongin myself is wrong, then I don't wanna be right.

tatej usfilter.com

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

Had the same problem, changing mouse speed so that the pointer would traverse the entire screen area wuth just the movement of the fingers is what solved the problem, that and letting my elbow rest on the arm of the chair. as long as you don't have to move your wrist, forearm and arm/shoulder the the pain will go away.

jh

RE: O.T. Anyone have "Mouse Shoulder"?

Some really good comments, particulalry from TateJ.  Personally I have been using computers many hours of the day for many years - much if not most of it on CAD with mouses (or is it mice?).  I have experienced problems from time to time.  I would say that moving your srceen back far enough away from you for comfortable viewing, checking you eyesight/glasses situation and having your arm fully supported from the elbow down and level with the mouse pad surface so your wrist is not bent were the most effective in solving these problems.  A good chair and good posture are definitley essential.  I also have the corner/wrap around type desk arrangement and put the monitor back in the corner (avoids moving the desk out).  My chair is adjusted so that the arm supports mine and is essentially level with the mouse pad.  It can take a bit of fiddling and experiement but it is worth it.  My arm is basically in a very comfortable and natural "at rest" position.  Moving you entire arm rather than your wrist and setting the mouse sensitivity so you don't have to move it great distances also help tremendously.  Mine moves the cursor entire screen width with out 3 to 3.5 inches of movement.

3/4 of all the Spam produced goes to Hawaii - shame that's not true of SPAM also.......

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