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Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession
4

Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

2
(OP)
Our world is faced with environmental problems, a looming energy crisis, famine and poverty.

These are problems that can be ameliorated by some technological fixes. It is engineers who should lead us towards our better future.

But instead of leading, our profession is battling to survive.

Our noble profession is besieged with layoffs, underemployment, salary reductions, and diminishing job prospects.

Amid these predicaments, concrete actions are being undertaken in Ontario, Canada to elevate the status of the Engineering Profession, and make us leaders.

1) The Ontario Society of Professional Engineers was created in order to help educate the government and the public on the importance of the engineering profession.

2) The Engineer in Residence Program was launched so that, volunteer engineers would visit public schools and help teach youngsters on how math and science are applied in the real world.

3) “Engineers without Borders” is a charity that is helping developing countries.

4) Universities are revamping their curriculum to include design courses and applied engineering in the first year of studies. In addition to this, more emphasis is being placed on communication skills.


What actions have been taken in your corner of the world to elevate the status of our profession? What additional actions should we take?

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

I hate to say it but to have the engineering equivalent of LA Law, Hill St Blues, ER etc would go a long way....public perception is everything these days and the main source of images is the box!

Regards, HM

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Watch "Extreme Engineering."  I think it is on the Discovery Channel.  It is even on during prime-time.  Of course, I don't ever see any commercials advertising the show, but it's there.

Sadly, from the episodes I've seen, the show focuses mainly on civil engineering.  They do very little in BioMechanics, Environmental, or other engineering functions.  The topics of the show are large construction projects that get the a lot of notice because they are so visible.  Normal people (admit it, we engineers are not normal) do not see the awe in things like heart valves.  Come on, we can not make an electronic heart so there will no longer be a waiting line for heart transplants.  That's not cool or awe inspiring?  What's wrong with the world?

--Scott

For some pleasure reading, the Round Table recommends FAQ731-376

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

A lot of "normal" people watch Junk Yard Wars - or am I so deeply entwined in an engineering circle that I don't know any normal people!!  ok so junk yard wars perhaps isn't the ideal show - but it's fun to watch!

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession


Cable TV has somewhat picked up on engineering type shows.  
I frequently watch that show on Discovery about those NY boys that build motorcycles.  It's entertaining, and includes information about machine processes like sheet metal fabrication and powder coating.

Given, it wouldn't be much fun to watch if the Dad didn't periodically drop an F-bomb or throw a monkey wrench at his son, but it portrays a more real-life picture of engineering than a typical star trek episode.

A TV show from the past is primarily responsible for my career in engineering; I used to watch "Wings" on the Discovery channel when I was a kid, and all those stories about aircraft designers, engineers, and pilots got me really interested in engineering.  That, and those burned-in images of the Tacoma-Narrows bridge having a grand-mal seizure and self destructing.  

From those early experiences, I always knew I wanted to be part of the action, from the beginning:  Engineering!

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Nothing is done in France to higher the image of Engineering.

It's a strange dilemna we have here.

On one hand, France makes fantastic engineering developments, especially in Civil Engineering (Bridge of Normandy, the next coming bridge of Millau) and in Transportation (TGV and Airbus, keeping in mind Airbus is European).

On the other hand though, French people aren't much "sensibilized" by this. They're more like "Hey, this TGV is a good thing, I can travel Paris to London in less than 2 hours, sweet" and they don't see it a huge technolic product, at the cutting edge of train systems.

French audiance isn't interested in engineering, they're just interested in what it gives them to ease their lives or whatsoever.

As a person, I've been asked many times what I was doing in my life : "I'm studying Mechanical Engineering" "Sweet, you repair engines then? I have a problem with mine" I mean, come on, wake up people!

In companies, workers see us engineers more like the bad guys, because we're over them in the company...We really suffer a bad and dark image in France.

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again before BobPE does, one way to improve the status of the engineering profession would be mandatory licensing and protection of the title engineer. We have this in Canada and the profession is held in higher regard than it appears to be elsewhere.

How can you expect that the public perception of engineers will be high if any idiot can call himself an engineer and worse practice engineering?

I believe that there are some serious flaws in the PE licensing procedure but these can be fixed. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.  

Tests are a poor proxy measure of professional competence. The FE should be passable by any graduate of an accredited university. If you did not pass an accredited university then it should be difficult for you to obtain a license, not just a couple more years experience but a tough rigorous system of exams that approximate the exams written in an accredited university degree.

The PE should be based on references from engineers who know and are familiar with the applicants experience and capabilities. To use a multiple guess format where the correct answer is in front of you is a poor measure of professional competence. The test questions that I have seen are of the nature of how much deflection will this beam have? A real world example is to design a structural system that will satisfy some design constrains in an economical manner with due regard for the long term and the capabilities of the potential builders. This design has to be put into a reasonable presentation so that tradesmen can follow the drawings and actually build it. Calculating deflection is only a small part of this and is usually done on the computer anyway.

What needs to be done is to take the licensing boards away from the state and make the profession self-governing.  In some states, as I understand it, the same state agency that licenses engineers also licenses carpenters and hairdressers. While I mean no disrespect for hairdressers and carpenters, they are not in the same league as we are.

There needs to be protection of the use of the title engineer. If anyone can pass a few tests and become a Microsoft Certified System Engineer, then why should the public respect the years of education and experience that are required to be engineers? If garbage men can call themselves sanitary engineers, then why should the public have any respect for us, especially those who are real sanitary engineers involved in the design of waste disposal systems and responsible for the protection of public health and the environment?

There needs to be protection of the right to practice engineering. If anyone can design and build any sort of manufactured item, then why should the public have any respect for us? All it takes is a business license and a welding rig and anyone can call himself the Director of Engineering for Sam’s Welding Shop and design items that he manufactures.

You need a license to drive a car but you do not need one to design one. Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this?

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Cheers RDK....good post...I was holding off on posting because, believe it or not, I know I sound like a broken record, and, well, that is ok with me...but it is nice to know that otheres out there realize someting is broken, and better yet, we are the ones that can fix it...

I think as a whole we engineers take great pride in not being in the spotlight because we are stigmitized that if you are in the spotlight, its because something went wrong...

I agree with you that lowering the bar is not the direction we should be going...as a side to that, I think helping other engineers up to the bar is a good direction...

I have stopped explaining to people what I do, they just have no clue...and its mostly our fault, because we do our jobs so well...Things work when people want them to work, and they take it for granted.  

I think Canada does have a better system, our system here in the US is a bitter "us - them" struggle created by outside forces that ZAPS all our creativity on how engineers can move forward to better the world.  

Advertising as an engineer in the US is strictly regulated and is one of the downfalls to engineers reaching the masses.  I often push for public service promotions in my state to let people know what an engineer is and how they impact their daily lives...but, alas, no one is interested...

Rhodie:

I loved wings...and that confounded Tacoma-Narrows bridge is a tribute to one of the few things that just about every person can recognize about engineers...failure...YOu ask them what they know about the bridge and the cant recall, other than the engineers messed up.

I got started on the engineering path as a kid, I thought the garden hose was the coolest thing going...now my primary focuse in engineering is fluid mechanics...

One thing though I would change is your post RDK...no one has a right to practice engineering, it's an earned privledge, one that can be lost.  I think that once us engineers realize that licensure, and ones ability to keep it, makes us a whole (not smarter, not better, not above anyone else...and all the BS that people think about it)engineer, only then will we be able to move forward....

BobPE

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

That would be much more sensible.

As far as the testing goes, why not just forbid 'engineering' degrees that do not meet the required standard? In effect, in the UK, this is what happens. Each engineering course is assessed and if it does not meet the standard then you have to pass additional papers before it is accepted as a real engineering degree. This happened to me, because my course did not include enough (well, any) of the 'soft' stuff (Engineer in Society). Fortunately a few years later they retrospectively changed the acceptability of my course, I don't know why.

If all engineering degrees satisfied this minimum requirement then the PE exam would not need to have any technical content.

In Australia engineering is reasonably well respected, perhaps the colonies retain a folk memory of 'before the country was civilised' ? Grin.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Perhaps if we were all required to go to 7-10 years of school like doctors and attorneys.  Maybe mandatory licensing like for doctor, attorneys, CPA's, truck drivers.

Some sort of boot camp or academy wouldn't hurt either.

Good and evil: wrap them up and disguise it as people.

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Response to Greg’s question: why not put PE exam into college?

-  Requirements for PE licensure is not limited to exam. It includes verification of experience and character.

- A person will not be eligible for PE until they have completed the experience. Doesn’t it make more sense to verify their “current” knowledge (at time of application) than their past knowledge (during school).

- College exams can be passed on short term memory.  PE exam verifies the fundamental have been retained over a longer period of time, implying the material has been more internalized.

The question for Greg: What’s wrong with requiring a professional to demonstrate a minimum knowledge by exam prior to licensing?

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

electricpete, I only need to challenge you on one point... well-written exams rely very little on memory and much more on the ability to apply knowledge in the solution of problems. In fact, many of my engineering exams were either open book or permitted notes of some sort. Short-term (or long-term) memory had very little to do with being able to successfully solve the problems.

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

I agree to a certain extent.  However there were also classes where I received an A in college and today I don't remember much of the course... either never really really knew it to begin with, or forgot it over time.

Which is more relevant in determining whether a working professional applying for licensure posseses the minimum knowldge?

- A test of the working professional's knowledge conducted today and administered under uniform controlled conditions for all candidates?

- A test conducted several years before when the individual was immersed in academia.  

Back to the opposite question: what is wrong with asking a professional to demonstrate minimum knowledge by exam?

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

What is wrong with asking a professional to demonstrate minimum knowledge by exam?

Nothing at all. In fact, from what little I know of the PE exam, I'd say it's a bit weak. For example, the CPA exam in California consists of three 8-hour sections which are (at least in part) made up of subjective, open-ended questions, not simple multiple choice, right/wrong questions. If the PE exam doesn't at least live up to that then I question its merit.

I think a well-written test, subjectively graded, perhaps coupled by individual evaluation by a board of engineers, would be a much better standard by which to bestow a PE license. It sounds like the existing test is not that bad. Getting your PE is basically just a matter of wheter you work with PE's so that you can get their references.

I'd say that any engineering college whose exams can be passed by students using memory as opposed to sound problem-solving skills is not worth a dang and should not be accredited by ABET.

This opens up a whole other can of worms because everybody knows that the rigor of exams is frequently dependent on the professor who, under the name of academic freedom, does whatever (s)he darn well pleases.

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Binary, the you cant even begin to compare the CPA to the PE.....the CPA is not even close....An engineer could pass the CPA by reading a few prep books (and of course meeting the exam qualification requirements), an accountant could not pass the PE without and engineering degree...that is a big difference.....

A PE is evaluated on an individual basis by a state board (made up of PE's) BEFORE someone takes the test because getting your PE is more than taking a test....

I am not sure what test you are refering tot had had simple multiple choice right or wrong answers, but it sure isnt the PE....nor is it the EIT....

I have a lot of friends ( 2 Electrical 1 Structural, 1 ME) that cannot pass the PE test....they went to top notch engineering schools...worked for cunsultants...and, the EE's in particular have taken the test over 7 times...these are not dumb people....don't say the test is easy until you take it....Once you take the test, I hope you come back to the forum and call me an idiot because the test was so easy...I would like nothing more than to get to call you wise ass PE.....LOL

BobPE

I do like (imagine that...lol) your comments on engineering schools....even with ABET accreditation, which isnt saying much, there are some schools that just should be allowed to continue to teach engineering!!!!  

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

BobPE

Get off your high horse!


lol...  I still feel like saying that almost everytime I read one of your posts!  PE's are smart, but to trivialize the CPA exam as something an engineer (not even notated as a PE, but a regular engineer!) could pass by "reading a few prep books" is just totally ridiculous.  I'd venture to guess that you've never even seen a CPA test.  It's not exactly the SAT, man!  It's a rigorous and comprehensive exam (which Binary did an excellent job of outlining), not one that's easy to pass without some formal Accounting Theory and certainly not one to be passed by a part-time book reader.  That's the whole point of the CPA exam!

Don't discredit the achievements of others simply because it isn't relevant to your personal situation.

LOL! You are something else, man!  I look forward to your replies.




RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

thanks Rhodie...LOL....

Yes I have seen a CPA exam...have you?  I sat with my EX wife while she took several sections of the exam...yea...sat with her, right next to her.....she pulled the test up on a computer at a TESTING center, and typed away...I got more answers right that her...top notch school, BS in accounting, MS in finance....

When I do talk, I know what I am talking about....so I guess that does make me something else...LOL....

"Don't discredit the achievements of others simply because it isn't relevant to your personal situation."......Words to live by Rhodie....words to live by....

LOL as I told you beofre, my horse is as high as you guys make it....the only difference is, there is room on my horse for more....get your PE and come on up and check out the view....

BobPE

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

BobPE:

You're right that I've never seen the PE test (and don't really remember much about the EIT back in '89). I was instead referring to the statements of your fellow PE where RDK said "The PE should be based on references from engineers who know and are familiar with the applicants experience and capabilities. To use a multiple guess format where the correct answer is in front of you is a poor measure of professional competence. The test questions that I have seen are of the nature of how much deflection will this beam have?" - a post to which you responded "good post".

I guess I misinterpreted Rick's statement.

Regardless, I don't know what state your ex took the CPA exam in but I have two brothers who took it here in California and it sounded brutal (and was most certainly NOT typed up on a computer in a testing center.)

I believe that the PE test in CA is an 8-hr test so, I'd have to agree with you... you really can't compare the 8-hr PE test to the 24-hr CPA test. Theirs is more rigorous.

From what I've seen of the CPA exam and the prep courses, you're just flat-out wrong. Believe what you want; I'm sure there's nothing I can say to change your opinions and I'm becoming less and less inclined to try...

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

It's funny how quickly the CPA is defended, and how quickly the PE is denounced....

Back to the original post, I think that sums up a lot where engineering is going....About 20 percent of engineering graduates will become licensed engineers in the US, the remainder will be tearing at the structure all engineers should strive to achieve and maintain.  The status of engineering here in the US has been and will be continue to be centered on PE's and non PE's and eventually this battle will be lost by all engineers as non engineering graduates take our places by using technology a few engineers develop.  There will always be a need for PE's in the US to take on liability.  My "opinion" for the exempt engineers is that lower paid technicians here in the US or overseas engineering graduates will take on this work.  I see it as a sad state of affairs...I see it every day, not only in here, but out in the real world....

Having an engineer say a test is more rigerous due to the time allotment for taking the test...now thats not typical of an engineer...an engineer should know to compare apples to apples...Engineers are smart people, and this is another "opinion" I have...But I read posts from some engineers and it can make an engineer feel knee high to a dime....this profession is not about feeling knee high to a dime...We, as engineers, are on high horses, if you dont feel that way, then get out of the profession and stop trying to pull the leaders down...

See, in my "opinion" engineers are greater than doctors, lawyers, and CPA's, combined....If you can fault me for feeling that way about our chosen profession...I think you should question yourself about being in this profession....

binary, I misunderstood RDK's post about the beam....my bad....

The test here in the states wold go a lot similar to this in format, although this is a weak example:

Multiple choice question, series of 3...

Question 1:  What is the deflection of a beam?

Question 2:  Using this deflection, calculate the moment at some connection...

Question 3:  Givn this moment, calculate the sheer on connecting bolts...etc...etc...

They are cascading questions that build on one another in many instances, although not all....A big problem with the exam is that they give you 5 choices...4 right wrong answers, and one correct answer....

BobPE

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

See, in my "opinion" engineers are greater than doctors, lawyers, and CPA's, combined....If you can fault me for feeling that way about our chosen profession...I think you should question yourself about being in this profession....

I don't feel that way at all.  Neither do many great engineers.  Don't commit the ad hoc "No True Scotsman Fallacy" by inferring that because Binary doesn't think he is smarter than "doctors, lawyers, and CPA's, combined" he is somehow lacking as an engineer.

By the way, learn to write and spell better.  We all make spelling mistakes, but no self-respecting engineer would be satisfied with such poor punctuation and spelling habits as yours.  (...see how that fallacy works?)

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

rhodie, thanks for your advice, I'll try to respect myself a bit more in the future....LOL...you kill me.....I don't clutter my mind with stuff I can look up in a book...typing skills included...lol



"I don't feel that way at all.  Neither do many great engineers."  Well maybe you should, and many great engineers do...

I don't recall saying anything about binary, why don't you improve your reading skills, but no self-respecting engineer would be satisfied with such poor reading skills as yours.  (...see how that fallacy works?)..or maybe my writing level is over your head...LOL.....I am writing from my horse remember...lol

I think more people feeling this way would elevate engineering to a level it deserves....There are a lot of people that think like you our there, there are a lot of people who think like I do too.....The question is, how would feeling this way lower the status of the profession?  

BobPE

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

BobPE wrote: .....I don't clutter my mind with stuff I can look up in a book...

I'm not a PE & I don't clutter my brain with stuff I can look up...I learned that from reading about Einstein, who did not even know his own phone number because it could be looked up...

A reporter once asked him, after an interview, "Can I have your telephone number for any follow-up questions?" So Einstein goes to the phone book and looks through for it. And the reporter says, "You're Albert Einstein, you're maybe the smartest person on the planet, and you have to look up your own phone number?" And Einstein's response is, "It's in the book. Why should I fill my mind with information I don't need to remember?"

What do you think Albert would have thought about the Palm & Pocket PC? Or my cell phone (model Samsung I300 with periodic table of elements, RPN calculator, engineering formulas & conversion tables, graffiti board, silkyboard virtual keyboard, a Shakespearean insult generator, email, voice dial, web browser, electronic hangman/backgammon/chess/mahjong games)

He also said "One had to cram all this stuff into one's mind for the examinations, whether one liked it or not. This coercion had such a deterring effect on me that, after I had passed the final examination, I found the consideration of any scientific problems distasteful to me for an entire year."

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Bob, I'm not trying to denounce the PE - though I do see how it came off that way. However, I do believe that the comparison with the CPA test is valid. I also do believe that the duration of the test does reflect, to some degree, the breadth of the material covered. I was genuinely surprised to see that the PE exam is as short as it is compared to some other professional exams (med & CPA, anyway...don't know about the bar)

I guess what I'm saying is that I believe that an evaluation system could be set up, which would include a comprehensive test, which could test the technical prowess and judgement of people well enough to render them licenses.

Understand that some of the 'tude you're getting off of me is due to my frustration with the existing system and the fact that it has thus far rendered it impossible for me to become licensed, even though I want to!

I suppose I feel that there should be a means by which I can demonstrate that I'm worthy even though I can't jump through the reference hoop.

I do agree with electricpete's suggestion about putting a qualifying exam into college or the first few years of work.

I've also said elsewhere and will repeat here that I endorse the notion of mandatory licensing - I simply believe that consideration needs to be given to those who can't jump through the reference hoop and yet are technically and professionally competent.

Personally, I'm getting tired of this whole debate... I've yet to hear one person concede much of anything to the other side so we're all just wasting our time with it...

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

ep wrote "- A person will not be eligible for PE until they have completed the experience. Doesn’t it make more sense to verify their “current” knowledge (at time of application) than their past knowledge (during school).

- College exams can be passed on short term memory.  PE exam verifies the fundamental have been retained over a longer period of time, implying the material has been more internalized.

The question for Greg: What’s wrong with requiring a professional to demonstrate a minimum knowledge by exam prior to licensing?"

Nothing, although by that logic a PE should be retested every year to make sure he is still competent.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Binary wrote:
"Personally, I'm getting tired of this whole debate... I've yet to hear one person concede much of anything to the other side so we're all just wasting our time with it..."

It is an interesting observation and interesting discussion.  

My take on the PE discussions going on all across eng-tips:  Most of us from both sides are not at tremendously wide disagreement.  I think all of us agreed with buzz' summary posted somewhere. But we're just each trying to shine a slightly  different light on the same issues.  And then defend our statements. And challenge others' statements. And somewhere in the defending and challenging we end up splitting hairs about what point we are really making.

Yet we all keep coming back!   Thread junkies as someone put it.   Actually I think the disagreement is what makes it interesting.  Either we like to argue or we have too much time on our hands?  I'm not complaining. If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't keep coming back.

ok - back to the hairsplitting:

Greg - So you stated that you agree with requiring a professional to demonstrate a minimum knowledge by exam prior to licensing.  Then you continue that the logic you agreed with would suggest more frequent testing. Is that what you advocate?

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

If one is to perform any useful measure of problem solving, then, at some point, one will need to have a lot of information pertaining to that problem in one's brain.

Sometimes you just gotta know stuff.  Your subconscious mind won't sort out the answer flipping through a paper handbook.  "I can always look it up" is the mantra of people too lazy to learn anything concrete.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

I used to think that engineers in Australia had reasonable standing . . . . . . . . until last night when attending a structural engineering meeting. The meeting was read a brief section of a letter from a state building authority (who structural and geotech engineers must register with to practice independantly in our state), a part of which stated that engineers should be suitably trained at TAFE Colleges (associate diploma courses only) as well as a list of universities (including one that doesn't have an eng deg. and excluding one of the more prominant universities).

In Australia an engineer is only an engineer when he/she completes a degree course that is approved by the institution of engineers or approved equivalent from overseas.

So for a state regulating body to not even know this, is in my mind, pretty bloody ordinary. The response from our group was basically; to point out what an engineer is and how they are trained and to ask the body to complete their research properly before casting about for opinions.

How can we expect to have good all round standing if the relevant state authorities can't get it right?



regards
sc

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

In whom's eyes should the status of engineering be elevated?  The public at large is "aware" of engineering through the products that they use.  We do not generally have one on one interaction with the public in the course of our work.  Doctors, Lawyers, Dentists do.  We are therefore represented by the products we bring to fruition.

We are perhaps victims of our own success.  The fruits of our labors work!  The expectation is a product will function as intended with less and less continued support or maintenance.  The public therefore becomes more and more ignorant of the underlying technology.  Only when a "disaster" occurs does engineering become newsworthy and enters the public perception.

In terms of improving public awareness, why not put the name of the engineering firm at a construction site along with the contract firm building it?  Industry is perhaps only beginning to tout the prowess of their engineering staffs (ie GM "professional grade").  They should be encouraged to do more.

Associations can be good ambassadors for the profession as long as they do not devolve into a self important beauracracy.  Choose wisely.  The PE / Industry Exempt makes it difficult in the US to use exercise one's personal initiative in affecting the public's perception.

Regards

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Sometimes you just gotta know stuff.  Your subconscious mind won't sort out the answer flipping through a paper handbook.  "I can always look it up" is the mantra of people too lazy to learn anything concrete.

I know lots of stuff. I'm full of useless trivia - I say useless, because I've yet to be accepted to play for Ben Stein's money or Jeopardy...

But, to be quite honest, I am lazy - my mom will tell you that. I describe myself as being like electricity - I want the shortest possible route to my goal. I'm always looking for simpler, more efficient way of doing everything...Since I work in Quality & process improvement is the name of the game, my boss accepts my lazy characteristic.

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

To pick the the simpler and more efficient way to solve problem is the first quality for an engineer imo, isn't it? So I won't call you lazy, but effective

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Just because it is possible to look something up doesn't mean it isn't important enough to commit to memory.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Typically, if you don't use it, you lose it...then, must look it up...

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession


It's good thing many of you didn't take the attitude of "I can always look it up!" to multiplication tables and state capitals, or you might not have ever finished your homework as a kid!

Memorization and internalizing knowledge is what seperates the man from ape.  (among other things...)

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession


In Canada law school and medical schools are each 3 years following two years undergraduate study leading to a degree plus one year articling or internship, total time 6 years.

Engineering is 4 years university plus 4 years as an intern total time 8 years.

I am not sure where TheTick gets the 7-10 years unless he is referring to a specialist in which case the equal would be someone with a MSc so add 2 more years to the engineer time for a total of 10 years.

Having taken most of the courses leading to an accounting designation (about ¾ the way through should I choose to peruse it.)  I would say that BobPE is closer to the mark than the others about the difficulty of the program.  Accounting is some simple concepts coupled with some basic mathematics that anyone who has an engineering degree should be able to master quickly.

The only difficulty in accounting is to understand the tax code, it makes any engineering code simple and clear by comparison. Perhaps that’s because accountants and lawyers and not engineers wrote it.

As far as feeling superior to accountants that’s because 1,000 years from now their ledgers will have turned to dust and be totally forgotten, on the other have I expect that some of my work will still be visible and perhaps functioning.  (Hey there are still Roman aqueducts and bridges functioning and they are twice that age.)

Remember that the biggest gains to public health did not occur because of anything the medical profession did, it happened because of the massive water and sanitary sewer collection, distribution and treatment systems designed, built operated and managed by engineers.

Engineering does have the biggest impact on the way we live, how long we live and how comfortable we live than any other profession. I am proud of that fact and proud of the fact that I play a small part in this great tradition.  I am also proud that my son and my nephew have chosen to follow in my footsteps and become engineers.

The message we should all endeavor to pass along is that we engineers play the biggest role in modern society, more than any other profession. We are the most ubiquitous of all the professions and we have a long and proud heritage to follow and to continue. We are the most varied of all professions as well. From electronics and computers to machines and aerospace, from bridges and buildings to outer space, we do it all.

ERTW


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Certainly there is something to be said for both sides.

There is no one right answer.  If we could learn everything we ever need to know, that would be ideal.
In the real world that is a simple impossibility.

We learn what we can as we have the time. We learn every day.  You haven’t stopped learning yet, have you Tick?
There will always be times when it is beneficial to consult a written reference or another person.
We live in the middle.  Everybody’s right.  My 1.99999 cents.

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

As I recall, rote/repetition was how we memorized the plutification multiplication tables in 3rd grade...

A can memorize & learn by rote/repetition.

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

A can not memorize the periodic table of elements or a table of galvanic potentials and make use of it.  A can not memorize key points of an h-s diagram and mentally interpolate for quick ballpark reality checks.

's also make tools, experiment, and appreciate beauty.  Don't be so hard on them.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

leanne

You've somehow managed a reply with information you've memorized after looking up in a book.  Given the context of this thread, your reply creates anti-matter and everything implodes.  Your Pippi Longstocking reference wins.

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

rhodie - WOW!!! You caught that? I loved the Pippi Longstocking books!!!! I wanted to be Pippi...

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Here's another vote for Pippi. I read 'em all when I was a kid, more than once.

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

OK, all you fans of "looking things up":

The Einstein phone number story lacks credibility.  No one ever comes up with a name for the alleged journalist, the date of the interview, or the publication for which the interviewer worked.  Sounds like an urban myth to me.

Somebody hit the books and find some sort of actual firsthand documentation that elevates the Einstein phone number story beyond the status of urban myth.  If it's true, I'm sure any can find it.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

If urban myth, it has yet to make it to snopes.com - although, there are a few Einstein references there.

I did a few searches but WOW!!! There are tons of references to Albert Einstein online. Schools named after him, hospitals named for him, a phone system programs,...too cumbersome...maybe later when I've got time...

from a sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton:

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."  

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Leanne - That is a great quote.

I think that that is something that is too often overlooked in the engineering profession.  It sometimes seems like it doesn't matter what data you collect or how well you design something as long as you can create a graph of how well it will work (or think it will work.)

miner

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

"Laws" of Research,

"Enough research will tend to support your theory."

"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they must be disposed of."

It's what management lives by

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

When I see some people say the PE exam is very difficult while others say it just tests for basic competence I have to say I'm very curious as to the contents of the exam.

Are there sample PE exams available somewhere? In Ireland where I live, the equivalent to the PE is to become a Chartered Engineer. If memory serves me correctly, the process of becoming chartered is as follows:

First you need 8 years of experience in engineering, though 4 of those years can be those spent studying for an accredited BEng. degree.

You then need to be a member of the Institute of engineers of Ireland (There's an annual fee for membership) and have references from two chartered engineers, at least one of whom can vouch directly for your work. You then write an essay on an area of engineering in which you consider yourself to have a lot of experience and submit it to the IEI. They read and rate your essay and decide from this whether to make you a chartered engineer.

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) Other quotes:
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
What really interests me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the world.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education
The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds
Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish
Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the Gods
The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious; It is the source of all true art and science
We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. THAT'S relativity.
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Generations to come will find it difficult to believe that a man such as Gandhi ever walked the face of this earth
Not until we dare to regard ourselves as a nation, not until we respect ourselves, can we gain the esteem of others, or rather only then will it come of its own accord
A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to enhance all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty
I never think of the future - it comes soon enough
The important thing is not to stop questioning
The release of atomic energy has not created a new problem. It has merely made more urgent the necessity of solving an existing one.
The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is comprehensible.
The mere formulation of a problem is far more essential than its solution, which may be merely a matter of mathematical or experimental skills. To raise new questions, new possibilities, to regard old problems from a new angle requires creative imagination and marks real advances in science.
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.
The release of atomic energy has not created a new problem. It has merely made more urgent the necessity of solving an existing one.
Imagination is more important than knowledge, for knowledge is limited while imagination embraces the entire world.
Everything that is really great and inspiring is created by the individual who can labor in freedom.
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.
If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor.
If I had only known. I would have become a locksmith.
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.
The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking.
Reality is the real business of physics.
The creative scientist studies nature with the rapt gaze of the lover, and is guided as often by aesthetics as by rational considerations in guessing how nature works.
Here arises a puzzle that has disturbed scientists of all periods. How is it possible that mathematics, a product of human thought that is independent of experience, fits so excellently the objects of physical reality? Can human reason without experience discover by pure thinking properties of real things?
The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is comprehensible.
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made [in science] is moved by the profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in science.
That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.
The only way to escape the personal corruption of praise is to go on working. One is tempted to stop and listen to it. The only thing is to turn away and go on working. Work. There is nothing else.
One ought to be ashamed to make use of the wonders of science embodied in a radio set, while appreciating them as little as a cow appreciates the botanical marvels in the plant she munches.
We believe in the possibility of a theory which is able to give a complete description of reality, the laws of which establish relations between the things themselves and not merely between their probabilities ... God does not play dice.
Insofar as mathematics is about reality, it is not certain, and insofar as it is certain, it is not about reality.
The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead.
Have holy curiosity.
Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love.
Where the world ceases to be the scene of our personal hopes and wishes, where we face it as free beings admiring, asking and observing, there we enter the realm of Art and Science.
Watch the stars, and from them learn. To the Master's honor all must turn, each in its track, without a sound, forever tracing Newton's ground.
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler.
Sometimes one pays most for the things one gets for nothing.
Common sense is a collection of prejudices acquired by age 18.
Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them.
If I were not a physicist, I would probably be a musician. I often think in music. I live my dreams in music. I see my life in terms of music... I get most joy in life out of music.
I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.
The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science
The release of atomic energy has not created a new problem. It has merely made more urgent the necessity of solving an existing one ... I do not believe that civilization will be wiled out in a war fought with the atomic bomb. Perhaps two thirds of the people of the Earth will be killed.
Perfection of means and confusion of ends seems to characterize our age.
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
The process of scientific discovery is, in effect, a continual flight from wonder.
If my theory of relativity is proven successful, Germany will claim me as a German ... should my theory prove untrue ... Germany will declare that I am a Jew.
It is easier to denature plutonium than to denature the evil spirit of man.
I never think of the future. It comes soon enough.
No amount of experimentation can prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.
The ideals which have always shone before me and filled me with the joy of living are goodness, beauty, and truth. To make a goal of comfort or happiness has never appealed to me.
Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can only be attained through understanding.
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
When the solution is simple, God is answering.
In long intervals I have expressed an opinion on public issues whenever they appeared to be so bad and unfortunate that silence would have made me feel guilty of complicity.
Armament is no protection against the war but leads to war. Striving for peace and preparing for war are incompatible with each other
Study and, in general, the pursuit of truth and beauty is a sphere of activity in which we are permitted to remain children all of our lives.
He who finds a thought that lets us even a little deeper into the eternal mystery of nature has been granted great peace.
The big political doings of our time are so disheartening that in our generation one feels quite alone. It is as if people had lost the passion for justice and dignity and no longer treasure what better generations have won by extraordinary sacrifices.
There comes a time when the mind takes a higher plane of knowledge but can never prove how it got there. All great discoveries have involved such a leap. The important thing is not to stop questioning.
My political ideal is democracy. Let every man be respected as an individual and no man idealized.
All that is valuable in human society depends upon the opportunity for development accorded the individual.
Anybody who really wants to abolish war must resolutely declare himself in favor of his own country's committing a portion of its sovereignty in favor of international institutions.
Cosmic religiousness is the strongest and most noble driving force of scientific research.
When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come to the conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me that my talent for absorbing positive knowledge.
Science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary.

Thanks and regards
Sayee Prasad R
Ph: 0097143968906
Mob: 00971507682668
email: sayee_prasad@yahoo.com
The black holes of nature are the most perfect macroscopic objects there are in the universe: the only elements in their construction are our concepts of space and time.

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Thank you, Sayee Prasad.

I believe it is very important, when a figure such as Einstein or Gahndi, Hitler or Stalin, Jesus or Bhodisatva has such a huge impact on the world, that we endeavor to know the solid truth about them.  This to prevent charlatans and mediocrities from destroying that truth with heresay and robbing us of the valuable lessons learned at great expense.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

I do not intend to make light of the content of this thread, but it seems to me that if a general rule can apply across various professions, it is the "rule of thirds". Keep in mind that this sweeping generalization is just that: it is not intended as a hard and fast rule, but a rule of thumb. Select any professional position, whether it is a an accountant, engineer, teacher, etc. and you will find in general that: 1/3 of those so employed excel at their chosen profession, 1/3 are competent and at least perform adequately, and the remaining 1/3 are less than competent. I currently work with people from all 3 groups. And the most frustrating days seem to be the ones where I am forced to interact mainly with the members from the last group.

I'm sure that each one of you can think of at least one professional that you've met who is less skilled at their job than you would have thought someone should be. If you take an idiot and educate him, you will have an educated idiot. Intelligence is not the sum content of what we have learned, but lies our ability to logically reason our way through the facts so that we can draw a sound conclusion from them. An appropriately constructed exam should be able to filter out the less than competent individuals from the skilled ones. Hence, RDK's proposal for mandatory licensure. If properly constructed, such an exam would act as an effective barrier to those not adequately skilled in the profession.   

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

The Tick
I guess you meant Gandhi but misspelt him Gahndi It makes a hell lot of difference to the meaning if you pronounce the name that way.......
To Leanne
I could not find anything on the net that corroborates what you said about Einstein, but read the following exerpt from a Sherlock Holmes story(in the A Study In Scarlet)..agreed that he was fiction but the concepts should be usable in real life!!!
He was not studying medicine. He had himself, in reply to a question, confirmed Stamford's opinion upon that point. Neither did he appear to have pursued any course of reading which might fit him for a degree in science or any other recognized portal which would give him an entrance into the learned world. Yet his zeal for certain studies was remarkable, and within eccentric limits his knowledge was so extraordinarily ample and minute that his observations have fairly astounded me. Surely no man would work so hard or attain such precise information unless he had some definite end in view. Desultory readers are seldom remarkable for the exactness of their learning. No man burdens his mind with small matters unless he has some very good reason for doing so.

His ignorance was as remarkable as his knowledge. Of contemporary literature, philosophy and politics he appeared to know next to nothing. Upon my quoting Thomas Carlyle, he inquired in the naivest way who he might be and what he had done. My surprise reached a climax, however, when I found incidentally that he was ignorant of the Copernican Theory and of the composition of the Solar System. That any civilized human being in this nineteenth century should not be aware that the earth travelled round the sun appeared to be to me such an extraordinary fact that I could hardly realize it.

"You appear to be astonished," he said, smiling at my expression of surprise. "Now that I do know it I shall do my best to forget it."

"To forget it!"

"You see," he explained, "I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skilful workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order. It is a mistake to think that that little room has elastic walls and can distend to any extent. Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones."

"But the Solar System!" I protested.

"What the deuce is it to me?" he interrupted impatiently; "you say that we go round the sun. If we went round the moon it would not make a pennyworth of difference to me or to my work."

I was on the point of asking him what that work might be, but something in his manner showed me that the question would be an unwelcome one. I pondered over our short conversation, however, and endeavoured to draw my deductions from it. He said that he would acquire no knowledge which did not bear upon his object. Therefore all the knowledge which he possessed was such as would be useful to him. I enumerated in my own mind all the various points upon which he had shown me that he was exceptionally well-informed. I even took a pencil and jotted them down. I could not help smiling at the document when I had completed it. It ran in this way—

Sherlock Holmes—his limits.

1. Knowledge of Literature.—Nil.

2. „ „ Philosophy.—Nil.

3. „ „ Astronomy.—Nil.

4. „ „ Politics.—Feeble.

5. „ „ Botany.—Variable. Well up in belladonna, opium, and poisons generally. Knows nothing of practical gardening.

6. „ „ Geology.—Practical, but limited. Tells at a glance different soils from each other. After walks has shown me splashes upon his trousers, and told me by their colour and consistence in what part of London he had received them.

7. „ „ Chemistry.—Profound.

8. „ „ Anatomy.—Accurate, but unsystematic.

9. „ „ Sensational Literature.—Immense. He appears to know every detail of every horror perpetrated in the century.

10. Plays the violin well.

11. Is an expert singlestick player, boxer, and swordsman.

12. Has a good practical knowledge of British law.
[/color blue]

Thanks and regards
Sayee Prasad R
Ph: 0097143968906
Mob: 00971507682668
email: sayee_prasad@yahoo.com
The black holes of nature are the most perfect macroscopic objects there are in the universe: the only elements in their construction are our concepts of space and time.

RE: Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession

Guys one advice I have to offer to all of you: Follow the MEME concept.
MEME= Maximum Efficiency, Minimum Effort.
Works for me, works for everybody.

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